Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Tykonos

 

I was okay with him using Hong Kong as a legal loophole to stay safe.

When he changed from being an American whistle blower to full and proper defector to an adversarial nation, he became something else. I'm still trying to determine in my own thinking, just how far that represents. This isn't a lot of room when someone has tossed their citizenship in exchange for selling out everything they were entrusted with while serving the nation.

Indeed.. He did see abuses and it was right to blow hard on the whistle of public attention ...but his adult life has been split between CIA payroll work and NSA contract work. He's a friggin nightmare to see turn defector.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

George washington was a American and a British officer. He saw how bad the goverment was and turned on it basicaly tossing his british citizenship away and alinging with the french. Is he a evil traitor?

When he changed from being an American whistle blower to full and proper defector to an adversarial nation, he became something else. I'm still trying to determine in my own thinking, just how far that represents.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


He had balls and obviously thought the US public needed to know which was right. However, those laptops should have stayed in the US, he may as well have gift wrapped them to 'the now gloating' Putin.

So glad for organizations like AI, that do the right thing and are not afraid to turn the spotlight on Western countries like UK and USA when needed. Godspeed Mr. Snowden. We support you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
god only knows how many of our people he has killed by doing so ....

I fail to see the logic in statements like these. How has telling the press that Washington is spying on the world's Facebook accounts getting anyone killed? As far as we know, he has no information on human assests in the field.

And how many people have been killed/rendered (my speculation) or mysteriously died soon after whistleblowing corrupt government practice? Unpatriotic, indeed.

By the way, FlyersFan, I'm not picking a personal fight here or insulting your intelligence. I'm not saying that you are either. We're just debating the issue.

If he would have stayed in the US or would have went to one of the US's allies then he would have been caught and put into a black hole never to be seen or heard from again. To save his life after he outed the NSA he had to go to a country that would not cave to US demand.

reply to post by RickKilgannon


At what cost?

Most of the public support what he did, he is a national hero to many. I just don't support what he has now done to save his own neck.

reply to post by Tykonos


Bradley manning had loads of support too and look what happened to him. I have a funny feeling that a worse fate was in store for Snowden, don't make the man a martyr just because he didn't do it the way you wanted.

The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world: Those like Showden and those who support him and support government accountability and transparency, the part of the solution croud; Then there are the detractors who try to drown us all in hyperbole and hypocrisy, the part of the problem crowd.

The rhetoric from those supporting the status quo is abhorrent. Shame on you; Is that the world you want future generations to inherit?

Originally posted by Todzer
reply to post by Tykonos

 

Bradley manning had loads of support too and look what happened to him. I have a funny feeling that a worse fate was in store for Snowden, don't make the man a martyr just because he didn't do it the way you wanted.

edit on 25/6/13 by Todzer because: (no reason given)

I have a funny feeling, he may now be wishing he was back on US soil.

It's nothing to do with what I would have wanted him to do. It's the simple fact of who now has those four suitcases. He ran straight into their arms.

Originally posted by Tykonos
It's the simple fact of who now has those four suitcases.

Fact? I believe this would be speculation at best. We hardly know anything about where he is, who is around him, or whats going on. Let's stay grounded. You might be right, but you might also be wrong. Either way, none of us can be sure at this stage.

The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world: Those like Showden and those who support him and support government accountability and transparency, the part of the solution croud; Then there are the detractors who try to drown us all in hyperbole and hypocrisy, the part of the problem crowd.

reply to post by cartenz


There's a third type, those who blow hot air.

I hear and see very few people anywhere who hasn't supported what he did, including myself.

It's where he's ended up that's the problem for me.

reply to post by crazyewok


Okay, now Snowden bears comparison to George Washington? Do you personally know Edward Snowden? Is he a friend of yours? I'm serious here because that level of comparison is just outright silly now.

I don't know Snowden. I've never met the man and I have no idea if he's a friendly and affable sort or if he comes off like a know it all little twerp. There is absolutely no way to determine that by watching the media's portrayal. I can't help but think people are falling in love with the image when knowing the man isn't possible here.

We also cannot know his motivations, which is the main point for me. I can only watch his actions....and they aren't those of a whistle blower at this point. It's also rich to see Russia be the ones at the center of this. They had a VERY similar case in former FSB Agent/Defector Alexander Litvinenko. Russia sure didn't see their 'Snowden' as a folk hero. They murdered him with a radioactive isotope that only comes from a working nuclear reactor. Quite a signature.

Now I'm still somewhat undecided. I'm not sure if he's getting a hero's welcome by people that DO kill their own who do this very same thing ...or if he's getting told he will now debrief and tell every last thing he's seen, done and known about US National Security. Willing or learning a hard hard lesson? Hard to say.....

reply to post by Heliophant

Fact? I believe this would be speculation at best.

Just like you are speculating on what he has?

Originally posted by Tykonos
Just like you are speculating on what he has?

I have acknowledged that my thoughts on this case are speculation. However, I've not said or speculated anything about what he has with him.

ETA: Well, other than speculating on what information he might have. Nothing about suitcases. But I presented those thoughts as speculation, and am just basing it on what he's said. None of us can be sure.

Let's be careful not paint a picture before we even have the canvas. It's still a sketch. Sketchy at best.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Okay, now Snowden bears comparison to George Washington? Do you personally know Edward Snowden? Is he a friend of yours? I'm serious here because that level of comparison is just outright silly now.

I don't know Snowden. I've never met the man and I have no idea if he's a friendly and affable sort or if he comes off like a know it all little twerp. There is absolutely no way to determine that by watching the media's portrayal. I can't help but think people are falling in love with the image when knowing the man isn't possible here.

We also cannot know his motivations, which is the main point for me. I can only watch his actions....and they aren't those of a whistle blower at this point. It's also rich to see Russia be the ones at the center of this. They had a VERY similar case in former FSB Agent/Defector Alexander Litvinenko. Russia sure didn't see their 'Snowden' as a folk hero. They murdered him with a radioactive isotope that only comes from a working nuclear reactor. Quite a signature.

Now I'm still somewhat undecided. I'm not sure if he's getting a hero's welcome by people that DO kill their own who do this very same thing ...or if he's getting told he will now debrief and tell every last thing he's seen, done and known about US National Security. Willing or learning a hard hard lesson? Hard to say.....

Sorry if you missunderstand my point.

My point was the line between hero/traitor is sometimes indistinishble.

Also the the idea of who is a enemy can also become blurred and hard choices need to be made.

reply to post by Tykonos


No it isn't. If you had no problem with what he did they you would accept that he had to flee for his own safety. You mask your intent with what ifs, in the hope to divide those on the fence from those who are awake to the lies.

By saying you are against him seeking shelter in a foreign nation, you are effectively stating that you wish death upon him, and for the whole matter to conveniently disappear. Yeah, your agenda is obvious.

reply to post by crazyewok


There is no blurring at all in my opinion and he's no freedom fighter or nation builder. As an American, he's a whistle blower. As someone in the arms of our most serious adversaries, he may well be what he's accused of....even if it hadn't started that way. There are lines of going too far in both what he shares, given what he had access to offer ...and who it's all done with. Sharp, black lines. It's just how I see it. China and Russia aren't babes in the woods or above any of this....and it's starting to look like Snowden just flipped sides more than he's trying to see change.

Time will tell as this plays out.

Originally posted by Todzer
So do you think he should have kept his mouth shut then?

If he was a patriot .. he would have told the American people about NSA spying on them.
And then he would have stopped and not given up state secrets to China and Russia.

Originally posted by crazyewok
And france was a more tyranical goverment than Britain and cared little about americans yet your forefathers went to them for help.......

And France helped because it was in it's own best interest to help.
It wasn't out of good will to America. It was because by helping Americans,
France was weakening it's enemy ... England.

Get the point.

Do YOU?

China and Russia aren't going to help America.
They will do everything they can to weaken America.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And then he would have stopped and not given up state secrets to China and Russia.

Snowden says hes only spoken to the Press. China and Russia both say they have not met with Snowden. Maybe that's not true, but you can't state that as fact at this stage. We just don't know.

We don't even know what information he has! The only thing we've been told about what he might have is from the US gov. But they aren't exactly the most trustworthy at the moment, and they are speculating themselves!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
So do you think he should have kept his mouth shut then?

If he was a patriot .. he would have told the American people about NSA spying on them.
And then he would have stopped and not given up state secrets to China and Russia.

He did tell the American people about the NSA spying..........
and of COURSE he would flee the country. If he had stayed here... he would have been found dead most likely.