Lies, Greed, and Fear: The origins of Christianity

Originally posted by HarryTZ
This logic is so far beyond nonsensical that it's laughable. You're saying that god already determined every action that I am going to perform, yet I'll be damned if I don't do something else.

It's not up to me if you'll be doing something else. It's not up to you either. It's up to God. But on a worldly level, the Spirit will move through you if God is willing, and through His glorious grace you will be transformed. Is there an illusion of choice? Yes. Is your entire life predetermined by God? Yes. But if God has chosen you to be one of His elect, you won't have any choice but to bow and profess that Jesus is Lord.

Nonsensical? Of course it's nonsensical to you, the Bible tells us that the Truth is irrational and illogical to an unbeliever because they dwell in darkness.

Which clearly you do.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
Why do you believe that? Because the bible says so. Why do you believe the bible? Because it was written by god! How do you know it was written by god? Because the bible says so!

Arguing against arguing from circular logic? Any philosopher will tell you all logic is, by its very definition, circular. To obtain the definition of the word you must presuppose that there is that word to define.

But it's not very circular if I know it was written by God beyond a shadow of a doubt by irrefutable evidence. If you would like to discuss that point with me in private, I'd be more than happy to give you a categorized list of reasons why everything in the Bible is absolute truth. Because if I posted it all here, it would take up an entire page of the thread alone.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


I don't know about you, but when I do something I consider wrong, I take responsibility for it and apologize. Then I get over it. I don't go around telling everyone how much of a horrible person I am for making some petty mistake.

reply to post by HarryTZ


Oh, I do too. Don't get me wrong. I've taken responsibility for every wicked thing I've done, and then some. I apologize frequently for bad decisions. But all of the responsibility taking and apologizing to other people won't help you unless you sincerely ask for forgiveness from the One who is the ultimate judge for what you think, say, and do.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


Clearly my questioning attitude toward people who blindly follow a god that may or may not even exist shows how 'in the dark' I am. Or, it shows that I am not willing to take something as truth unless it resonates with me personally.

Also, you pretty much just danced around my question. Why are we punished if god himself (who, if I follow you correctly, is utter perfection) created imperfect beings that would do 'evil', not by their choice but by god's predetermination? That literally makes no sense at all. And you wonder why I am not religious.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

 

Clearly my questioning attitude toward people who blindly follow a god that may or may not even exist shows how 'in the dark' I am. Or, it shows that I am not willing to take something as truth unless it resonates with me personally.

Also, you pretty much just danced around my question. Why are we punished if god himself (who, if I follow you correctly, is utter perfection) created imperfect beings that would do 'evil', not by their choice but by god's predetermination? That literally makes no sense at all. And you wonder why I am not religious.

No. It's not your questioning of people who you think blindly follow God (which I don't) that shows how you dwell in darkness. It's your blatant disrespect towards the Son of God who died as an atonement for our sins. Your manipulation of God's Word for your own purposes, your delusional thoughts fueled by pagan mystery religions that verge on some bizarre form of Neognosticism, and your overall attack on the Church that show how you dwell in darkness. I could care less if you question me, once you start spreading lies and misinformation about the Bible, I start taking umbrage, not out of "getting my feelings hurt" or "ego bruising" but because I pity you.

Not an evil pity where I think I have it better than you. It's a righteous pity, because I see where you're headed and how deceived you've become. I know what Christ has done for me, how I basically believed a lot of what you're talking about. I was an esoteric Buddhist, I studied Greek philosophy, I delved deeply into the mystery religions, I studied faithfully the teachings from Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, and the New Age.

And now where am I? I had my head caved in by the Word of God and now, having loved myself my entire life, I love Christ more than life itself.

As for your second response, I'll refer you to RC Sproul, one of the greatest theologians of our time. He'd probably explain it much better than I ever could:

What changed in you? How did you convert from intelligence to ignorance? You obviously blindly follow the 'word of god', or you wouldn't follow it at all.

reply to post by HarryTZ

Clearly my questioning attitude toward people who blindly follow a god that may or may not even exist shows how 'in the dark' I am.

I'm sorry, but that statement is unacceptable. It is obviously false. Whatever else you think you might have, you do not have a "questioning attitude."

From your headline, through every post, you have made questionable assertions, attacked everyone and everything that raised it's head, and never once indicated that you might be wrong.

Or, it shows that I am not willing to take something as truth unless it resonates with me personally.

I'm sorry, what? Science, experience, logic, are all false unless it "resonates" with you? You determine what is true and what is false? I know of a character who claimed he was like God. Perhaps you identify with him? His massive pride led him to occupy his present position. The Great Void or "nothingness" can also be a description of the kingdom of a spirit.

Also, you pretty much just danced around my question. Why are we punished if god himself (who, if I follow you correctly, is utter perfection) created imperfect beings that would do 'evil', not by their choice but by god's predetermination? That literally makes no sense at all. And you wonder why I am not religious.

No religion I know of involves God's punishment for acts the person has no control over. And no, we are not robots.

I may not know precisely why you are not religious, although I think I have a fair idea. I'm almost certain it has nothing whatever to do with you claiming that predestination is a mainstream Christian position, and you don't like it.

Originally posted by charles1952
I'm sorry, but that statement is unacceptable. It is obviously false. Whatever else you think you might have, you do not have a "questioning attitude."

Hi charles. Nice to see you over here.
Anyway, I, in fact, DO have a questioning attitude. I am, and have been, questioning and challenging the beliefs of these people.

From your headline, through every post, you have made questionable assertions, attacked everyone and everything that raised it's head, and never once indicated that you might be wrong.

I may have been a little less than patient at times, but I do not believe I have attacked anyone. And also, besides my claims about what I believe to be the life of Jesus, what I am saying is purely based on logic. No one here has "indicated that they might be wrong", because they must stick to their beliefs in order to keep their footing. I am telling them to drop their beliefs.

I'm sorry, what? Science, experience, logic, are all false unless it "resonates" with you? You determine what is true and what is false? I know of a character who claimed he was like God. Perhaps you identify with him? His massive pride led him to occupy his present position. The Great Void or "nothingness" can also be a description of the kingdom of a spirit.

Perhaps that came out wrong. I will not adopt an idea blindly and without first seeing a reason to adopt it. Religion is, quite frankly, idiotic, and therefore, I see no reason to adopt it.

I may not know precisely why you are not religious, although I think I have a fair idea. I'm almost certain it has nothing whatever to do with you claiming that predestination is a mainstream Christian position, and you don't like it.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
You were born by the will of God. You live by the will of God. Every second of every day has been predestined by God. So yes, you were sinful before you were born, because God knew all of us completely and fully before even the foundations of the universe were spoken into existence. (Jeremiah 1:5)

I would not have even mentioned predestination were it not for this quoted post.

reply to post by HarryTZ

Dear HarryTZ,

I have to apologize publicly. My tone was way wrong and uncalled for. I can (and have) disagreed in a much more polite manner than I did with you. Please forgive me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


No hard feelings brother

Click here for more information.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


People like who?

EDIT: No, nevermind. I don't want to know anymore. I am simply done arguing. It is utterly futile. Maybe one day you will realize that your religion is simply a grain of sand on a beach of beliefs and dogmas, and it is no more true or false than any other. But that is for you to discover, not for me to force onto you.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Originally posted by TheMagus
Notice how the "holy" ones simply refuse to post on topic and won't address the subject of the OP:

1- Nobody is claiming to be holy. If I had to put myself on a spectrum between Hitler and Jesus, I'd be right next to Hitler. (Romans 3:23)

Originally posted by TheMagus
namely the pathological xtian tendency to project "evil", especially their own on others and on the universe itself.

2-Yes. Because humans aren't inherently evil or anything like that.
2a-No, humans are evil. We're all wicked, sinful, and depraved, and it really doesn't matter how hard you plug your ears up with your fingers, close your eyes, and go "la la la la la la la", there is objective evil in the world and it's apparent in the entire history of humanity. Human history is just one giant example of the evil nature of humanity.

Originally posted by TheMagus
it's never a xtian, just the devil, or his little helpers [of which you are being set up to be outed as one, what with the INQUISITION regarding your beliefs ]

3-You seem to refuse to see where I'm coming from as a believer. I'm nowhere near perfect. I'm most likely even more flawed than anybody who has posted here on this thread. But you know what the difference is? I am fortitude by Christ who dwells within me and regenerates my entire being so that I absolutely CANNOT do evil acts even if I wanted to. If I did do evil acts, I wasn't really saved.

4-My position is simple: You and I aren't any different. We're both fallen creatures prone to doing sinful things. But my life is a testimony that by the grace of God I am made whole and have no need for selfish, worldly desires and material possessions.

5-And because I am fortified by Christ, I have the duty as a Christian to give a reason for the hope that is within me (1 Peter 3:15) and implore others to seek our Christ, because if there's anybody here who knows that you can't save yourself, it's me.

Originally posted by TheMagus
for the most part, historically, christianity is nought but a a blood drenched banner raised up to the concept of DOMINATION

6-Yes. By who? Fallen men who do depraved things. What do you expect? Human beings will do what human beings do. But don't start placing the burden of that responsibility on Christ.

But that's not what it's about, is it? Unbelievers will always do that: Play the "Christianity has murdered people" card even though they know that's a blatant lie. True Christianity has never persecuted, imprisoned, or murdered anybody period, because NOTHING in the Bible advocates that. But you know that. You just have a limited hand to play, so you keep doing back to things like the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials because you think it fits your agenda when attacking the truth claims of Christianity.

Originally posted by TheMagus
that said, true followers of Jesus, like Francis of Assisi, are simply too busy doing the Imitatio Dei, to be meddling in others lives.

7-Nobody here is meddling in anybody's life. The OP posted a multitude of clear and blatant lies about Jesus and the Bible, and I am called to defend them. Do they need defended? No. But as John Calvin put it, we must give a response (apologia) to "stop the mouths of the obstreperous."

ROFL
your entire post, is a perfect proof of my point
and is obstreperous to boot
1-so i should pay heed to someone who is

right next to Hitler

2-quoted from my introduction

..There in a land between Reality and Illusion, between Time and Space, between Chaos and Order, betwixt The Spirit, The Soul, and The Body, there i floated for countless Aeons, unable to do aught save exist! It was there i learned, in whispers:
The Secrets!
It was there i learned that qualities such as Good and Evil are nothing more than lies created by Humans to control Humans!
It was there I learned the Great Division is not Right and Wrong, but...
Purpose or Death!
But I've had to pay a high price for this knowledge!
You see, i had to surrender myself to Madness!

What i mean is, well, I am now quite insane! At first, I sought refuge from these Truths within the protective Cocoon of Lies that society had given me, but they followed me therein and straightforth ate away at my every thought, impulse, and value!

Finally the whispers became the only Truth! My past, at last, was revealed as a Lie,
and my only Reality turned into TOTAL MADNESS!

Thus Enlightened, I returned to this Actuality and burst free from my Cocoon, at last truly The Magus!

2a- RLMFAO! everyone is "evil" except those "fortified" with vitamin [J]esus

3- you are mistaken, the brainwashing is obvious to anyone that didn't swallow the pill and you are already showing contradictions common to practitioners of Double-"think" what with your claims to infallibility

4-speak for yourself, that's quite arrogant of you to presume to judge

5-so much for claims of not being "holy". that is some pill

6-ROFL where have I accused jesus? it's those who claim to follow him whose fruits are being pointed out
don't project/deflect; it exposes your "sane" viewpoint

7-risible especially how you quote a pathological case as was calvin ["economic prosperity is "proof" of being saved, poverty is proof of damnation"]
ROFL predestination is the ultimate abandonment of personal responsibility it's no different than shrugging and saying "sh*t happens" when being held to account for your actions.
according to your doctrine everything is predetermined so aren't you going against god's will in attempting to change me?

the morass of "sanity" that your arguments represent could be summarized thus IMO :

Click here for more information.

Sorry, just one last thing. I'd like you guys to take a look at this:

static4.fjcdn.com...

Have we any winners? I think so.

reply to post by HarryTZ

Sorry, my McAfee flashes red all over when I try to follow your link.

There we go.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
What changed in you? How did you convert from intelligence to ignorance? You obviously blindly follow the 'word of god', or you wouldn't follow it at all.

he is merely using your thread as a pulpit
instead of posting his own

Originally posted by HarryTZ

There we go.

edit on 16-6-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by boymonkey74

 

I thought this thread was about Christianity.

Christianity doesn't try to exert control like Islamic countries who try to use Islam as a political tool.

Secondly, a few bad apples are always going to try and spoil the barrel, but that's not what religion is about. That's what people are about.

And you are saying that Christianity in any denomination doesn't do the same?

Are you aware that Christian organizations are tax exempt?