Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by opethPA


Your full post is such a great read , thank you for posting it.
It's what I have been saying since this broke.
He is a hero that broke the law and because of that he will have the admiration of the people but will have to deal with the consequences.

But how can exposing law breaking be breaking the law?

Surely the NDA is defunct and does not apply to covering up crime especialy a act of treason?

Do you really not know how security clearances or NDA's work?

Lets say I signed an NDA where I work currently and their was very clear verbiage around unauthorized release of information. Now let's say I saw something illegal going on here and I went to the media, I still broke that NDA.

Ethically or morally I did the correct thing by releasing the info but as defined by the contract of my agreement I broke what I signed. Their would be consequences for my actions no matter how justified or not and that does not even account for the stricter terms that are applied when you are cleared to any level.

One of the ultimate dangers in all of this, and something I haven't seen mentioned, is that if they are collecting meta data on everyone, it becomes but a simple task, a few keystrokes of their own, to frame anyone for anything.

This is why we are granted the right against illegal search and seizure. It is a check from yhe people to the government to follow the letter of the law. Due process is ignored. Sure, they may not be doing that YET, but I don't trust even that.

How about that guy linked to the Boston Bombers that was shot dead by the FBI? After the fact it is a SIMPLE TASK to link him to the bombers. His rights were trampled and due process becomes a punchline the government tells at parties (to borrow from Jack Nicholson).

Sad days here stateside. Sad days indeed.

In an e-mail on May 24, he dropped a bombshell. Whistleblowers before him, he said, had been destroyed by the experience. Snowden wanted “to embolden others to step forward,” he wrote, by showing that “they can win.” He therefore planned to apply for asylum in Iceland or some other country “with strong internet and press freedoms,” although “the strength of the reaction will determine how choosy I can be.”

washingtonpoast

How many Americans would welcome him back for exposing intelligence methods, how the GOVT actually works?

There is no reason to broadly wiretap the entire nation. Period. Oh.. I know.. those who see nothing wrong with this will cite "terrorism". Give me a break. Seriously.. please just stop with your boogeymen nonsense and wake up.

Who is the bigger threat to the American public right now? A "terrorist" or your own government. Who is taking away your freedom and privacy? A terrorist or your own government? Who is stuffing their hands down your children's pants at airports? A "terrorist" or your own government?

Those who say "who cares? I have nothing to hide". Fine.. send me all your texts and your emails. Hell.. give me your Facebook password. I mean.. you have nothing to hide, so its no big deal right?

The government is going to go after Snowden.. not because he released some "big secret". Everyone knew this was going on. All Snowden did was confirm it. No, the government is going to go after him because he made this administration look bad. (Not that they needed the help).

None of these invasions of privacy have come to help this country at all. Not one of them. And if your going to sit there and tell me they did, then give me some examples. Because I'm not seeing it. I see every day how this country is turning into a police state. I see every day how WE, the public are considered as suspects to everything. I see the government trampling all over the constitution and the bill of rights, all in the name of "safety". Bull$h%#. "Terrorism" is not as big as the government would have you believe. No, it is inflated BY them as a means to have an enemy to fight. The Cold War is over folks. The government just needs another bad guy, so they can keep dumping billions and billions into the Military Industrial Complex. And the government is psychotically paranoid about the American people rising up against them. So they are listening to everything you do. Oh they say things like "there is no privacy in this electronic age". Well.. in some ways that is true. People don't believe the NSA is capable of logging voice data. Well guess what? They are. Back in the old analog days, they couldn't. But now that everything is basically VoIP... they can. And they do. And you all just sit back and say "oh well.. I have nothing to hide."

When does it stop? At what point do we say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"???

Is Snowden a hero? No.. He's a guy who saw some complete BS going on and called them out on it. For those of you screaming that he is a traitor... for those in the media who are trying to spin this as he is some sort of spy for China... grow up. Seriously... just grow up, open your eyes and realize the world you live in is not real. You've been tricked. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows. The government doesn't give a damn about YOUR safety. Who are YOU to the government? Just a tax payer. That is all. Your life, or death, means nothing to them. So to sit here and say "their number one priority is the safety of the American people.". Yeah.. right.. If you believe that I got some of Sadam's WMDs I can sell ya.

Snowden is a self-righteous weasel who should spend his life in jail with Bradley Manning as his cellmate. He thinks he is doing the world a favor and has made himself a hero but has done neither. Unaware of the big picture, he selfishly pretends to be a man of the people, spilling the beans and forgetting that he could also be responsible for the unintended consequences of his actions; spilling the blood of others. He'll say that their blood is the price of freedom. Freedom of what? Cell phone and internet communications? Does anyone on here think that the NSA algorithms are going to worry about what they say and write?

Note that it's always somebody else's blood that is a justifiable price of freedom and never the hero's blood. His is too precious and righteous to be spilled for anything.

When we are next attacked by the purported followers of Islam, the same whiners complaining about this will be complaining about an intelligence failure and how did the Government not see the dangers, etc., much like the Boston bombing.

Originally posted by Brucee

So if PRISM prevent us from serious crimes, why didn't it prevent us from the Boston bombing?!!

Can it be that your logic just breaks apart?

Wrong argument IMO...it is not an either/or scenario.

It is fairly established that PRISM led to the arrest of this guy in 2009..
Najibullah Zazi
en.wikipedia.org...

He was trained by Al-Qaida, his Al-Qaida contact's email addy was flagged by British Intelligence and the USA used PRISM to find Zazi, a US Citizen in the USA who was planning a parade of bombings in NYC. He had a dozen backpack bombs assembled when he was arrested.

What this WAS NOT, was a computer algorithim, scanning over ALL internet traffic and flagging Americans to have thier privacy rights violated because of thier tone or wording in communications, whatever algorithim X, Y, Z...infinity felt warranted a flag. etc.

It was used once a known terrorist had been identified and his email flagged vs. trolling the entirity of the internet communications and "targeting" Americans for deeper scrutiny, absent warrants, based soley on what a computer algorithim finds suspicious.

Now...listen carefully to what Snowden describes in his interview. He does not have issue with PRISM as a tool that is used properly. He cites repeated cases where Americans are targeted/flagged/investigated absent any warrant or just cause. He says any given analyst might step outside the constitution a few times in thier career and skip the warrant and drill down into the average Joe's personal life, but what bothered him was the trend that it was happening more and more often, on a larger and larger scale and his superiors seemed to encourage it, or at the very least ignored and dismissed his complaints when he expressed to them...hey...no warrants..no terrorist links...just some analyst X going all cowboy and violating some Americans privacy...Multiplied by a thousand?

You guys should make Obama step down. He has blatantly lied to the american people. I can't believe he has the Gaul to say you need to trust him on this after being caught red handed. I think the whole world would be behind you lot as it came out first that they were spying on the rest of the world but not America., like that makes it ok.

A legitimate window has come for the world to stand up together and as one and say NO

Originally posted by Bilk22
I don't disagree. However there are tons of high level techies coming out of the best schools the nation has to offer, so picking a kid, talented as he may be, without those "papers" of higher degree, is an odd chance and not the norm especially for government work. Now if you have a kid that was in the military, who is talented, he can overcome the lack of credentials.

I stated, I'm not taking away from what he did. However I don't believe he acted alone and I do believe the timing and what this means, is much deeper than on the surface.

Beggars can't be choosers. Young people, especially those with degrees from the best schools, aren't going to the federal government for jobs or defense related jobs. According to the CIO, about 21% of the cybersecurity workforce for the federal government is under the age of 40. Most of the ones with the spiffy degrees from spiffy schools are going to the private sector. My friend with the master's from CMU was offered a job by the DoD and he declined it for a variety of reasons from how he was approached, who, what it might entail and awareness that he could make a whole lot more in the private sector.

Source for statistics: cio.gov...

reply to post by pteridine


Please elaborate on how a GOVT entity can have a conflict with a religious sect?

Or is that your own personal definition of a "terrorist"?

You seem educated and articulate.

So you agree with trading privacy and liberty for national security, dictated by personal (corporate sponsored by political contributions) agenda?

Originally posted by opethPA


Do you really not know how security clearances or NDA's work?

Lets say I signed an NDA where I work currently and their was very clear verbiage around unauthorized release of information. Now let's say I saw something illegal going on here and I went to the media, I still broke that NDA.

Ethically or morally I did the correct thing by releasing the info but as defined by the contract of my agreement I broke what I signed. Their would be consequences for my actions no matter how justified or not and that does not even account for the stricter terms that are applied when you are cleared to any level.

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

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edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

But if said person does not come forward then they are accesory to said crime. In snowdens case if he kept quiet he would be a accesory in commiting treason.

You are all delusional to think this will make any difference. Anyone paying attention knows this story is old news. The guberment has been doing this long before O and the shrub.... ever since the invention of the telegraph. And just because the sheep now are paying attention and know about this "secret" doesn't mean the power will be given up. Any student of history knows that once the power is given.... it's NEVER given back. So even though they say it's only metadata watch what you twit and text and don't conduct your drug deals on the phone. Just like before.

Originally posted by pteridine
Snowden is a self-righteous weasel who should spend his life in jail with Bradley Manning as his cellmate. He thinks he is doing the world a favor and has made himself a hero but has done neither. Unaware of the big picture, he selfishly pretends to be a man of the people,

It is precisely his awareness of the bigger picture that led him to forfiet his career and risk everything for "the people"

Originally posted by pteridine
spilling the beans and forgetting that he could also be responsible for the unintended consequences of his actions; spilling the blood of others. He'll say that their blood is the price of freedom.

So...How was Bin Laden communicating with Al-Qaida? Via a guy who took written messages to and from the compound after driving circles around twon to make sure he wasn't being followed.

You think Al-Qaida wasn't already aware that online communications were a risk?

What is a bored analyst to do when Al-Qaida stops using GMail?

Perhaps take a look at Joe Blow American X?...He said some ugly stuff on ATS the other day! eff the warrant, I am going to save the USA from a terrorist attack!! Let's tear into his life, we will worry about the constitution later.

PRISM is not news to the good guys or the bad guys...No terrorist suddenly said "Damn, it never occured to me that my phone might be tapped or my GMail account tracked!" They are either dumb enough to take that risk or they don't do it....bu this aint news to them. It is the average American and the Constitution of the United States who is the casualty...Snowden thought that in a free democracy, the people should be aware of that causalty and determine for themselves wether it is worth sacrificing it.

I heard the interview. I want to congratulate the young man for doing what he has done. I think he has the best possible motives. He is not the first to come out of the intelligence community with this sort of news. He is saying that the government of our time is setting up the infrastructure of tyranny and is basically leaving it up to leaders of the future to flip that switch or not. I don't think any democratic minded people would willingly tolerate a "sword of Damocles" like that, hanging over their heads, if they knew about it.

I guess we'll find that out.

Originally posted by crazyewok

But if said person does not come forward then they are accesory to said crime. In snowdens case if he kept quiet he would be a accesory in commiting treason.

edit on 10-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

Please show me where PRISM has been legally ruled as treason? I am not saying it is or it isn't just saying where has it legally been ruled treason other than by you.

Conversely it would only be a matter of getting the documents Snowden signed when he got his first clearance as Secret (ignoring everything that came after) the made it illegal to release classified information without proper authorization.

None of which changes my initial statement of he is a hero that broke the law.

Something to consider in this situation is that this guy may have signed his own death warrant for a number of reasons.
Most importantly, and this may have been a HUGE mistake on his part, is that he actually went public with how much access he has. Lists of the entire intelligence community, total access to NSAs systems, etc. He is now a prime target for every terrorist organization on Earth, not just the US Gov. And this fact right here shows that even if you don't consider him a hero, you gotta recognize the bravery he is displaying.

I mean, the Gov has their hands full with this guy. Right now I'm SURE they are scrambling to determine what ELSE he has. If he has too much sensitive info on him, they WILL kill him before he is compromised.

Originally posted by pteridine
Snowden is a self-righteous weasel who should spend his life in jail with Bradley Manning as his cellmate. He thinks he is doing the world a favor and has made himself a hero but has done neither. Unaware of the big picture, he selfishly pretends to be a man of the people, spilling the beans and forgetting that he could also be responsible for the unintended consequences of his actions; spilling the blood of others. He'll say that their blood is the price of freedom. Freedom of what? Cell phone and internet communications? Does anyone on here think that the NSA algorithms are going to worry about what they say and write?

Note that it's always somebody else's blood that is a justifiable price of freedom and never the hero's blood. His is too precious and righteous to be spilled for anything.

When we are next attacked by the purported followers of Islam, the same whiners complaining about this will be complaining about an intelligence failure and how did the Government not see the dangers, etc., much like the Boston bombing.

Oy vey! All they have to do is ROLL IT BACK!

You can limit the gathering to ONLY calls originating from foreign countries. You cannot gather domestic information whatsoever without a TWO JUDGE approval and their signatures on a warrant.

.This has been an unlawful encroachment on our civil liberties protected under the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

oh.....and folks like you make me sad for the Republic.

reply to post by pteridine

When we are next attacked by the purported followers of Islam, the same whiners complaining about this will be complaining about an intelligence failure and how did the Government not see the dangers, etc., much like the Boston bombing.

What about the Boston bombing? If this system is so awesome, why wasn't that stopped? Could it be the government is too busy snooping on the wrong people like maybe their political enemies instead?

Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by crazyewok

But if said person does not come forward then they are accesory to said crime. In snowdens case if he kept quiet he would be a accesory in commiting treason.

edit on 10-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

Please show me where PRISM has been legally ruled as treason? I am not saying it is or it isn't just saying where has it legally been ruled treason other than by you.

Conversely it would only be a matter of getting the documents Snowden signed when he got his first clearance as Secret (ignoring everything that came after) the made it illegal to release classified information without proper authorization.

None of which changes my initial statement of he is a hero that broke the law.

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" 4th amendment

It is treason as last time I checked it says in plan wording in the constitution that doing such things without a warrant is illegal. I'm not even a US citizen and I understand that going against the constitution is treason.

Its irrelevant what the president, congress or you supreme court say. Unless they amend that part part of the constitution then monitoring people communications without warrent which comes under "papers, and effects" should be regarded as treason.

And snowden if he had not come foward and continued his work for the NSA would be just as guilty as all his supeiors that support this.

reply to post by crazyewok


As someone else pointed out in another thread, it more aptly falls under the category of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Minor distinction, but it isn't technically treason. Legally speaking treason is an open act of war against the American People.

Either way it is an impeachable offense.

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by opethPA


Do you really not know how security clearances or NDA's work?

Lets say I signed an NDA where I work currently and their was very clear verbiage around unauthorized release of information. Now let's say I saw something illegal going on here and I went to the media, I still broke that NDA.

Ethically or morally I did the correct thing by releasing the info but as defined by the contract of my agreement I broke what I signed. Their would be consequences for my actions no matter how justified or not and that does not even account for the stricter terms that are applied when you are cleared to any level.

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-6-2013 by opethPA because: (no reason given)

But if said person does not come forward then they are accesory to said crime. In snowdens case if he kept quiet he would be a accesory in commiting treason.

edit on 10-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

Snowden has committed treason by any standard of the measure.......... he deserves death, no less than life making little rocks out of big rocks.