Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)

reply to post by butcherguy

So, are you saying that the Muslims marched into India without fighting and just ruled for a period of time, then left?

I said nothing about there being no fighting.
My point was about how India remains a hindu country despite being ruled by Muslims for centuries... thereby completely refuting nonsensical ideas about Muslims forcefully converting everywhere they went.

But if you want to talk about fighting in general, yes, there were Muslim kings and armies that fought and expanded borders like any other king or army. Thats basic history 101.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

*facepalm* they aren't claiming to be under PHYSICAL attack from christians, (though they are from muslims, as are christians), but that they feel the spread of christianity is encroaching on their beliefs.

Your copy-pasting from what seems to be a right wing borderline hate blog... that's anti-Muslim and anti-Christian is worthy of a facepalm. It might help if you run background checks on your sources before you copy-paste their articles here.

i noticed you chose not to respond to how india became "muslim ruled".

I thought I acknowledged that India was ruled by Muslims, for centuries.
I also raised another point that you don't seem to want to address... i.e - the thing about how India remains a Hindu nation despite being ruled by Muslims for several centuries.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I didn't say Islam is basically secular, I said Iran. And I said other than the hardliners. The hardliners are certainly militant fundamentalists.

The "hardliners" and the "fundamentalists" happen to rule Iran...
so why is it that these Islamic hardliners have allowed 25,000 Jews... instead of doing their thing and converting everybody?

reply to post by Credenceskynyrd

25,000 is more or less an irrelevance-

It still remains that we have 25,000 Jews in Iran, that the Muslims have NOT converted.
That its "an irrelevance" is conjecture on your part... not an objective fact. If the Muslims were bent on converting everybody, the tiny minority would have been the first to go.

Try harder- Islam arrived in India behaving as their prophet behaved, through invasion and violence-

This isn't about whether or not there was conflict... But rather this is about so called "forced conversion" as implied in the OP titled "Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion"

The idea that Muslim conquerors intended to convert everybody is utterly rubbished by the fact that India remains largely a Hindu country despite being under Muslim rule for several centuries.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

nonsensical ideas about Muslims forcefully converting everywhere they went.

When the Mohammed had his army slaughter a tribe of polytheists (after the holy days, of course) what happened to the women and children that were enslaved?

Did they remain polytheists? Were the children that were borne of unions between the slaves and their Muslim masters raised in their culture, as polytheists?

Kill the men, enslave the rest. Seems to amount to 'conversion'.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
@ op

Please explain to all of us at ATS how Iran is home to 25,000 Jews. [....]

They are Sephardim, real semitic Jews, who are hated and vilified by the caucasian Ashkenaz usurpers who sit in banker-bought political Israel. Note that I just mention race to highlight what is being done in that region with respect to the prophecies of the New Testament. The Sephardim in Iran get along very well with the Persian and Arab elements. The trouble is being stirred up by the Ashkenazim. They are reckoned by some to be the Edomites, but that's an entirely different subject.

I do see your point, however, and simply put, most Muslims are about as excited to follow the call to "kill the Infidels" as most Christians are to stone disobedient children. Both are commands in their respective books, but neither are practiced by most adherents.

Very well-done thread, Kgnow. Thank you for posting it. I believe I saw a similar format you used recently to address these issues with integrity, knowledge, and facts.

I applaud you.

Please keep up the good work.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


How exceptionally pushy and RUDE, Sk0rpi0n! YOU HAVE TOTALLY derailed Kgnow's thread and are trying to hijack it and make it your own, by doing the EXACT thing that he very politely asked you (and others) to refrain from doing!!

Shame on you. Shameful behavior. LET THE MAN SPEAK!!

My respect for you has plummeted over the last couple of weeks. To rock bottom.
You are a KING at deflection, straw men, and DECEPTION. ADDRESS the ISSUES, or let others do so. You have YET to answer any serious questions about Islam's problematic tendencies - all you EVER do is point at "other religions", like a 2nd grader.



_____________________________________

Now, Kgnow, kindly continue. I'd report Sk0rp for deliberate trolling and off-topic behavior if this was my thread.

reply to post by Kgnow


Evil will always be evil no matter how many times it claims otherwise, and they shall each receive a mark in there right hand (the Kabba stone on the corner that is or was once an idol worshiped in connection with the moon goddess on haaj the muslim supplicant must touch it with his right hand in order that he may receive the blessing and upon returning all other muslims especially those whom have not completed haaj will seek out his hand to hold and share the blessing or mark). All that have the mark of the beast will go into the lake of fire that is the second death (all regardless of religion will be raised for judgement).

They whom claim to be jews but are the synagogue of satan, the Islamic tradition's include copying the covenant of Abraham and circumcising there male children but to Allah no Yahwey and they are not the same person, Allah or El was the high god of the Canaanites and enemy of Yahwey and Yahwey the true god of Abraham.

All the great prophets and later the apostles received the Holy spirit and it spoke through them but Muhammad received all his direction from a spirit claiming to be Gabriel.

over 580 years prior on the island of patmos the prophet st John the divine lived in a cave and received revelations from god through the Alpha and Omega which stated amongst other thing's those beheaded for my name sake will come with me on the day of judgement and those whom beheaded them will know great terror, Jesus once said I come for my own first (meaning he owns the Jew's they are in his name and he also own's the Christians whom are the branch grafted on - god is only angry unto the 4th generation but will bless unto the 7th so don't think we have the moral high ground as long as it is two good god fearing people).

Sorry but all members of Islam are damned but you muslims can take consolation in this from our prophecy you will rule most of the world before judgement day and persecute the lords people's and we can take consolation in knowing you will burn except that the lord is Merciful so I invite you to read the book of revelation and remember it was written in 89 ad ok.

reply to post by LABTECH767


The only reason I starred your post is because it is ON TOPIC. I don't agree with religion. And you are being just as bad as the Islamists if you condemn all Muslims to hell based on your religion.

ALL religions are bogus.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Please explain to all of us at ATS how Iran is home to 25,000 Jews

Let us look at the actions of Muhammad, while taking the historic chronology of events and Qur’anic abrogated chronology from the op into consideration:



Upon leaving Mecca to establish his stronghold in Medina in 622 CE/AD, Muhammad was still preaching peace, tolerance, and religious freedom. The Jews of Medina, as shown in the following painting, happily welcomed Muhammad as new ruler of Medina. In the early days of Muhammad’s arrival to the new city, the Jewish tribes of Banu Khazraj and Banu Aws merged together with some other smaller Jewish factions and Jewish individuals, converted to Islam, and became known as the Ansar (Helpers).



Some Jewish tribes of Medina and its vicinity chose to retain their Jewish heritage, religion, and identity during Muhammad’s reign. Most notable are the tribes of Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qurayza. All Jews of Medina and the surrounding area were ordered to pay the jizya tax to Muhammad. Jizya is a tax imposed upon non-Muslims living in Muslim lands.

When Muhammad took sovereign reign over his new stronghold of Medina, Allah’s revelations began to break away from the message of peace and began to move towards jihad. Muhammad and his followers began jihad military operations by first attacking and robbing unarmed and unprotected merchant caravans. These aggressive acts of highway robbery helped to strengthen Muhammad’s government and military. These caravan robberies had a tremendous impact upon the markets of the Arabian Peninsula.

As a combined result of the imposed jizya tax and Muhammad’s destabilization of trading and markets in the area, the once welcoming Jews of Medina began to voice public dissident and write degrading accounts and poems about Muhammad. Displeased with the freedom of speech that unhappy Jews were voicing, Muhammad declared unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations of assassination plots being planned against him. Muhammad then ordered many successful assassinations against various Jewish tribe leaders.

The first Jewish tribe of Medina to be targeted was Banu Qaynuga. Muhammad and his army besieged their village for 14 days. Banu Qaynuga then surrendered and all of their land, businesses, wealth, and goods were seized by Muhammad, and the tribe was forcefully expelled from Medina. They eventually settled in Syria.



The next group of Jews on Muhammad’s list was Banu Nadir. Their plight is mentioned above in the second post of the op. They were attacked, their wealth, property, and goods were confiscated, their men were executed, and their women and children were enslaved.



As a result of Muhammad’s indiscriminate robbery of merchant caravans and his tyrannical attacks against Banu Qaynuga and Banu Nadir, the non-muslim Arabs and Jews of the Meccan area launched a failed attack against Muhammad known as The Battle of the Trenches.

During the Battle of the Trenches, the Banu Qurayza tribe remained neutral and did not participate in the war. However, after winning this war, Muhammad turned his army against Banu Qurayza UNPROVKED, and utterly massacred all of their men, enslaved their women, and seized all property, wealth, and goods.



After the robbery, destruction, murder, enslavement, and execution of the Jews of Medina, the Jews who survived gathered with other Jewish groups to the north of Medina in the area of Khaybar. Here the Jews barricaded themselves in their settlement, desperately trying to survive Muhammad’s onslaught.



Muhammad’s forces laid siege to the Jews of Khaybar and after several weeks The Jews surrendered. In order to avoid expulsion or execution, Muhammad ordered that 50% of all of their agricultural harvests would be seized as an alms to Muhammad and his Muslims. However, Muhammad’s second successor Umar ibn al-Khattab later expelled the Jews of Khaybar out of Arabia.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
@ op

Please explain to all of us at ATS how Iran is home to 25,000 Jews.
Also explain how India remains a Hindu nation despite being ruled by Muslims for several centuries.

Consider these as counter points to your claims.

After building-up Islam’s military in Medina, Muhammad and his four immediate successors swept through Arabia and the Middle-East converting and conquering by the sword according to the 9th Chapter of the Qu’an (Suratul Tawbah), which the OP illustrates, Chapter 9 abrogates all earlier proclamations of peace and freedom of religion. All Hadith/Sunnah, Muhammad's biographical accounts, and historic account can easily verify.

reply to post by wildtimes


I agree with you I am very much a hypocrite and not the good Christian but I try to be yet my answer was because I have a burning hatred of the devil and yes I do have extreme point of view, probably on judgement day it will be me the lord raises his voice too and takes an innocent born to the falsehood whom knew no better under his wing's but like many I will probably be damned more because I was given the truth and did not live up to it.
And yours is worthy of a star for pointing this out, can you imagine what it would be like if all us extremists were stuck on a life raft together.

I am also part Jewish and was once attracted to Islam before finding about Aisha and the marriage of Muhammad to this child though I also read that he expressed an interest two years before he died in a little girl whom had not even learned to walk yet, he told his followers to live by the spear and Christ said "He whom lives by the sword shall die by the sword", Christ was pierced in his side by a spear so that spear that shall smile Islam is the wrath of Christ.

They are very limited in number but the only people more dangerous are Hasidic extremists with there angry interpretation of the Torah and if they ever gain Israel's nuclear arsenal they will strike first.

Despite my obvious dislike for Muhammad he had some inspired tactics such as how he and his followers conquered Um Kirfa and her tribe whom had he not done so could have united the arab's against him.
He feasted in her tent now his, while his men did what they did to her and then tied her between two camels and tore her in two before her head was presented to him as a trophy while he feasted, her young daughter (she was the widow of the chieftain of the kufiri tribe (now you know what they mean when they call us kuffirs) he gave to his uncle as a plaything).
By day his men hid under sand and at night they crept on there bellies like snake's until they were close enough her guard were distracted and outmanned while her tribe and warriors were too far away to help, she was known as a peace maker and had over fifty ceremonial scimitars in her tent gifted as a sign of allegiance by the chiefs of other tribes, very intelligent she would rightly have been a legend in her own right in any other age, after killing her he said no tribe or nation would prosper with a woman as it's leader, she had prospered and gained both allies and friends through diplomacy until he murdered her.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


We are discussing Muhammad, Allah, and their version of Islam, NOT the socio-political aspects of Muslims or governments of today or in the centuries after Muhammad's death.

Please stay on topic to the points of the thread, I will re-list them for your convenience.

Additionally, please use academic sources and methods such as chronological order of Quranic revelation, chronological order of Hadith/Sunnah (actions, sayings, and traditions of Muhammad), chronologic order of Muhammad's biographical accounts, and chronologic order of historic accounts during Muhammad's life.




• (Point # 1)
As we can plainly see, the verse in its entire context of revelation is biased towards the belief in and obedience to Allah. The word "Taghut" has been often white-washed to the incorrect translation of "evil" or "Satan" or "Idols", but infact, "Taghut" means: The action of disbelief and disobedience to Allah and Islam. In addition, the verse in its entire revealed context ends with a threat of Hell Fire to non-Muslims.


• (Point #2)
Muhammad annihilated and destroyed the Jewish tribe Banu Nadir, unprovoked. Afterwards, an Ansari woman acquainted with the tribe vowed to convert her child to the religion of Judaism. "No compulsion in religion" was revealed in order to stop an Ansari baby from being raised as a Jew.


• (Point #3)
In the Qur'an, the jihad in Surah 9 abrogates/supersedes the "no compulsion in religion" verse. Additionally, Muhammad's "Final Sermon" commands religious superiority and the separation of Muslims into "one brotherhood" separate from non-Muslims.


• (Point #4)
Muhammad assassinated tribal leaders, attacked, executed, expelled, and seized the property, wealth, and goods of the Jews of Medina and the surrounding area.


• (Point #5)
After building-up Islam’s military in Medina, Muhammad and his four immediate successors swept through Arabia and the Middle-East converting and conquering by the sword according to the 9th Chapter of the Qu’an (Suratul Tawbah), which the OP illustrates, Chapter 9 abrogates all earlier proclamations of peace and freedom of religion. All Hadith/Sunnah, Muhammad's biographical accounts, and historic account can easily verify.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I didn't say Islam is basically secular, I said Iran. And I said other than the hardliners. The hardliners are certainly militant fundamentalists.

The "hardliners" and the "fundamentalists" happen to rule Iran...
so why is it that these Islamic hardliners have allowed 25,000 Jews... instead of doing their thing and converting everybody?

No kidding they do.

reply to post by Kgnow

What we see in kingdoms and rulers after Muhammad's death and today are the governments of MAN. Let us please stick to Qur'an and Sunnah in chronologic order.

If you want to stick to any Chronological order, you should research what forms of thought, religion, life, existed prior to the koran/mohammed, and stick to that. Just like many jews dont acknowledge jesus/christ because torah predates.

Personally, It's all relative. I don't see or take Islam Serious because to me koran is not scripture handed down by God. However Muslims see that it is so, and since Islam breeds Fundamentalism, they will find all sorts of ways to justify what ever they want no matter what their scripture says.

Only part of Islam I see as legit, is the Sufis. However, they predate mohammed/islam, and basically had to slip into the folds of islam to survive being murdered and snuffed out as a whole

reply to post by dominicus


Researching history of all ages is necessary for understanding the road of progression that lead to the present moment.

However, Muslims and apologists often quote the verse "No compulsion in religion" completely out of context of its inclusive revealed set of sentences, they take the historic facts out of context, and they also fail to acknowledge abrogation. It is done either through deliberate white-washing, or it is done by those who do not understand the verse in its complete and full context.

This thread is specifically detailing the "No compulsion in religion" verse with all of its chronology related to Allah and Muhammad specifically.




P.S.

The humans that call themselves "muslim" take Islam seriously, and on many levels, both conscious and subconscious, subtle and noticeable, this seriousness affects us all. These humans are our brethren, and they are directing and cultivating religious superiority complexes, anger, hate, violence, and separation towards all non-muslims,..... based upon a religion standing on numerous faulty points, with a great deal of misunderstandings of those faults by Muslims themselves.

I agree with your assessment on the Sufis. They belong to the relative perennial philosophy found all over the world; unity, love, and altruism, through the gnosis, enlightenment, awakening, and illumination achieved by 'Kgnowing the Self', traveling the narrow path of cultivating righteous character, philosophical alchemy, and building an inner and outer world of balance without suffering to self, others, living beings, and existence.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


ok, then, answer me what the penalty would be in Iran for apostasy, would this be classed under "compulsion"

I'll answer for ya, yeah it would

reply to post by dominicus

Only part of Islam I see as legit, is the Sufis. However, they predate mohammed/islam, and basically had to slip into the folds of islam to survive being murdered and snuffed out as a whole

Yep!
I totally agree. They are the ONLY part I see as 'correct-thinking', too.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hello there wildtimes. Thanks for weighing in. I'm glad you appreciate the information. If there are any questions you have about the religion of Islam, feel free to ask and I'll give you the most unbiased, scientifically-academic answer that I can.

The information in this thread is an accurate account and representation of Islam's finalized and "perfected" form in the final years leading up to Muhammad's death. Peace and freedom of religion were a thing of the past upon Muhammad's military climb.