Reconciled

When we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that’s the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.

We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive. It took place when Christ said that it is finished. God knows about it, and he wants us “humankind” to know about it, because they think he is alienated from them, in his mind, when they sin. He put all that sin on his son long before those people were ever born, and now he wants them to accept that reconciliation. God is not holding or charging that sin to their account.

If you want God to view you today, you got to be in his son. How can you get into his son, and have all of his righteousness freely imputed to your account? By simply taking God at his word, concerning what his son accomplished for you. It is as simple as that. When God says he is satisfied with what Christ did for your sins, when Christ died for them, all your sins were all future. It is a son issue on your part, not a sin issue, in order to receive the gift of salivation.

reply to post by newnature


is it okay, from the viewpoint of a christian, if i believe in my god, and not attend to church?
if i have my own way to "pray", shall i be saved?
cheers, mate.

reply to post by newnature

We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive.

Maybe you should read "the lords prayer"... its in Matthew 6 if you didn't know...

Forgive and you will be forgiven... have mercy and you will be shown mercy...

BUT

IF you do not forgive you will not be forgiven... and if you have no mercy you will receive none...

Theres nothing "up front" about that

reply to post by solve

You bring up more questions than those you ask.

is it okay, from the viewpoint of a christian, if i believe in my god, and not attend to church?

Doesn't it depend on what your god has told you? If you're a Christian, you've been told to gather together, sharing with each other the time to memorialize Jesus' Last Supper.

if i have my own way to "pray", shall i be saved?

I suspect your real question is "Can a non-Christian be saved." That's a reasonably involved question. At the end though, most Christians will rely on God's Mercy and Justice to make the final decision. Be careful, though, not all "gods" are merciful, and you may end up in the grip of something you really don't like.

But to give you a satisfying answer, more information is needed.

reply to post by charles1952

If you're a Christian, you've been told to gather together, sharing with each other the time to memorialize Jesus' Last Supper.

I'll refer you to Matthew 6 also my friend...

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly

reply to post by charles1952


heh...
yes i know,, but if i believe in god? you know,,, just god?
its a trick question,,, too many shades of grey, you know...
maybe the question is-- if i believe, (not pointing any gods out) then, will i be saved?
these things are so complicated,,,
did jesus go to church? is god really a combination of jesus, god, and the holy spirit? ghodsus?

and is the last name of jesus---- christ?

reply to post by solve


I don't think they had last names back then actually...

The last names usually refered to where said person came from...

Paul of Tarsus... Jesus of Nazareth etc etc...

Christ is a title... not a last name

reply to post by Akragon


oh, man,, i really should read my bible one more time,,,,, i really liked the old testament..
but it feels more cryptic to me, than the popol vuh..
and thats about twins crawling into blow guns and flying around...

Originally posted by solve
reply to post by Akragon

 

oh, man,, i really should read my bible one more time,,,,,
but it feels more cryptic to me, than the popol vuh..
and thats about twins crawling into blow guns and flying around...

its one of the... if not "the" best story ever written...

I mean it literally has everything... Heros, murder, deceit... mystery, myth and reality...

reply to post by newnature


Great post. I am reminded of these verses in Romans 5:

5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

---I consider the Holy Spirit of God a comforter for now. Until Christ comes a second time, we are that body of Christ and cup bearing the Holy Spirit of God. God imparts faith and it takes the Father to prepare us for the Son (John 6:65). Faith is God's work in us. Salvation is Christ's work in us if we are prepared to be in Him by God. The key is that God imparts that faith to us. In conjunction with this, taking on the name of Christ implies that we receive the character. Receiving the name apart from the character is taking the name in vain. People make the mistake of thinking they can take the name of Christ. In reality, that name can only be received to be taken on. We are only in Christ if that gift has been given. No gift is ever taken. We also know that the gift cannot be earned by us. Equally, we are thieves if we think it can be taken as a possession apart from the character that transforms us into new creations. True salvation is received. As the verses below state, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

---Abraham was asked to give something up. His Son was a reflection of his future and his desires to become the Father of a great nation. Along the way, that nation was required to suffer the light forward for humanity. When Abraham showed faith, the Son was spared and a scapegoat was found. In a similar manner, the coming wrath spoken o in Matthew 3 and other places will not be for the Son (Church embodied as Christ on Earth). The scapegoat will be revealed.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

---The payment was made before we were saved. That payment will be accounted for us before the coming wrath. Salvation comes when the Heel crushes the head. That heel is Adam on each side of the loaf of bread.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Just as the nation of Israel suffered their faith forward past Abraham, so we have suffered forward for 2000 years. Adam is on both sides of this loaf (First and Last).

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

The Heel of the loaf crushes the head of Satan. Satan and his minions go to the abyss and those imparted with faith are saved.

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The scapegoat (Ram / Ayil) is caught in the thicket.

Interesting Link on this topic...

reply to post by charles1952

Doesn't it depend on what your god has told you? If you're a Christian, you've been told to gather together, sharing with each other the time to memorialize Jesus' Last Supper.

I thought it was not to pray in public, or to make yourself look to everyone as though you are suffering for your belief in a god? I thought it was supposed to be done in private?

Yup, Ak had it:

I'll refer you to Matthew 6 also my friend... And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly

Thanks Ak.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I thought it was not to pray in public, or to make yourself look to everyone as though you are suffering for your belief in a god? I thought it was supposed to be done in private?

That was a warning by Jesus against egotistic ostentation, trying to draw people's eyes upon the individual.
There is nothing ostentatious about praying in the middle of a hundred or a thousand other people who are doing the same thing.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by jiggerj
I thought it was not to pray in public, or to make yourself look to everyone as though you are suffering for your belief in a god? I thought it was supposed to be done in private?

That was a warning by Jesus against egotistic ostentation, trying to draw people's eyes upon the individual.
There is nothing ostentatious about praying in the middle of a hundred or a thousand other people who are doing the same thing.

edit on 2-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Then why does the passage say to do this in a closet?

reply to post by jiggerj

Doing it in a closet is preferable to doing it in an ostentatious way.
It's taking things to the opposite extreme, which is a rhetorical device Jesus used more than once.
What he meant can be seen by his own example; when he intended intense, personal prayer, he went off on his own. But that did not prevent him from taking part in communal worship, for he went to the Temple and shared in the activity of the synagogue.
So there is no need to take his words as a stricture against communal worship. Just against ostentatious attention-seeking.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

I mean it literally has everything... Heros, murder, deceit... mystery, myth and reality...

Just like life. That's one more reason I believe in it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Akragon

 

Dear Akragon,

I mean it literally has everything... Heros, murder, deceit... mystery, myth and reality...

Just like life. That's one more reason I believe in it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Fair enough...

Only problem with that is in real life... Myths are exactly that...

In the bible Myth becomes reality in some peoples heads

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Your wisdom shines again and sweeps the field.

Only problem with that is in real life... Myths are exactly that...

In the bible Myth becomes reality in some peoples heads

I agree completely.

I have a little trouble with a definition of the word "myth," suffice it to say that I don't believe every word is literally true. I suspect that I take more of it literally than you do, although I've seen you take things that were meant to be metaphors and take them literally. But leave all that aside.

You realize the Bible is a collection of books, with different purposes and means of expression. That gives you a head start over many others. The only difficulty remaining is deciding which books do what. I wish you well in finding the answer to that.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by newnature

When we accept this idea of conditional forgiveness/forgiveness on the installment plan; a little forgiveness here, a little forgiveness there, the need for new forgiveness for new sin, that’s the atonement program of Israel, not the reconciliation program of the body of Christ.

Forgiveness comes through repentance, turning away from those sins that you would have to ask forgiveness for. The is the New Testament way to forgiveness. How that was different from the current system of the day when Jesus taught, was that you don't have to go through a priest as an intercessor. You can go directly to the people you have wronged and make reconciliation, and God would see the problem as being taken care of and would not ask for additional punishment, such as having to buy some animals to be sacrificed.

We need to understand that forgiveness was all upfront and all-inclusive. It took place when Christ said that it is finished. God knows about it, and he wants us “humankind” to know about it, because they think he is alienated from them, in his mind, when they sin. He put all that sin on his son long before those people were ever born, and now he wants them to accept that reconciliation. God is not holding or charging that sin to their account.

That is all theory, and not based on anything that the New Testament teaches directly.
"It is finished" does not mean that all debts are now paid.
We are "alienated" from God if we knowingly and deliberately sin. It is an act of rebellion. Paul said that while we were yet rebels, God gave his son who ended up being killed. Once we have reconciled with God by believing in His son, then God will do even more for us, with the idea in mind of things like the resurrection. Paul was not trying to say we can sin and still not be alienated.
The New Testament does not say that God "put all that sin on his son". Jesus was made to suffer and die, just like sinful humanity, and he was also "cursed" according to the Law, so was made sin for us. That is a long ways from the idea that Jesus was somehow loaded up with all the sins of the world in order to distract the eye of some cosmic judge, to take the punishment for them. I think this is what you are trying to say, that he was our Penal Substitute, which is only a man-made theory, and never taught anywhere in the Bible.
If we have unrepented sins that we are habitually committing as a life-style, you had better believe that it is being "charged to your account".

If you want God to view you today, you got to be in his son.

You do not have to be Jesus. To be a son of God, there is only one way to do that, which is to take on the righteousness of Jesus, which means doing righteous deeds, not just sitting around thinking that you can just continue living selfishly.

How can you get into his son, and have all of his righteousness freely imputed to your account?

This is another theory, based on a not very well informed interpretation of Paul's use of the word justification. Some ancient scholars saw it as a legal term where findings of guilt or innocence can be "imputed". That is not why God sent Jesus to live and die on this earth. Jesus wanted us to be truly righteous, not content to be only determined to be, such as the Pharisees were, by dressing a certain way, and saying long prayers.

By simply taking God at his word, concerning what his son accomplished for you. It is as simple as that.

There is nothing "simple" about a life devoted to doing right, and avoiding evil and useless frivolity.

When God says he is satisfied with what Christ did for your sins, when Christ died for them, all your sins were all future. It is a son issue on your part, not a sin issue, in order to receive the gift of salivation.

Do you really believe that, that God had to be "satisfied" with Jesus' suffering before He could forgive sins? We have to be where God will be satisfied that we have accepted Him into us spiritually, to be righteous.