The Black Knight Satellite

FireMoon
I have personally spoken people way above your level Jim and their information frankly, shows just where you are coming from.

Then it should hold up under public scrutiny.

So let's hear their names, qualifications and information. You know, the same sort of stuff Mr. Oberg provides.

reply to post by draknoir2


Jim provides this forum with what a certain section of the legislative wishes to disseminate and I very much doubt Jim even is aware of it. You want a name? Sure, here's one, Lord Hill Norton, now deceased with whom, i just about disagreed with on everything, when it came to explaining the motives of UFOs . What he said in public was nothing like that he'd talk about in private in terms of detail.

FireMoon
reply to post by draknoir2

 

Jim provides this forum with what a certain section of the legislative wishes to disseminate and I very much doubt Jim even is aware of it. You want a name? Sure, here's one, Lord Hill Norton, now deceased with whom, i just about disagreed with on everything, when it came to explaining the motives of UFOs . What he said in public was nothing like that he'd talk about in private in terms of detail.

Thanks for the link, but what I am hearing is a man stating an opinion based on the already public testimony of those actually involved, not a man who is privy to some sort of ultra-secret high-level information. This makes his testimony less valuable than the first hand witnesses, making any speculation on his part simply that - speculation, whether made publicly or privately, which at this point isn't even verifiable.

None of this seems to have any connection with the myth of the 'Black Knight' satellite, and if I wanted to defend that myth's credibility, I'd sure change the subject, too. Let's discuss Cooper over on the latest Cooper thread.

reply to post by JimOberg


Jim,

About 13 years ago I was sitting in a hot tub on a winter night. I noticed what thought was a satellite traversing the sky. I was raised in a household with a 10" telescope and frequently would spot satellites, so I thought I knew what it was. I was fairly used to seeing them.

This one was different. As it did it's little traverse from East/West it suddenly did a perfect 90 turn on a dime.

I know what I saw, and I'm still convinced to this day that what I saw wasn't a normal satellite.

reply to post by draknoir2


And what I'm telling you is simply that you asked. That Lord Hill Norton in private, spoke at length about various incidents on a level that, to this day, is still kept from the public. You want to believe the shift foreman over the person who owns the company about company policy, then by all means, do so. Jim Oberg did not work for NASA during the whole Cooper incidents or those that sought info on the mythical Black Knight what Jim knows he was told by those who have a certain agenda. What Hill Norton was told were the details and testimony directly from those who took part in certain incidents and he spoke to numerous personnel involved in said incidents, "off the record". in fact, if you really know your onions about Ufology, you'll be able to tell me where Lord Hill Norton, in that interview, is not telling quite the whole truth?

MystikMushroom
reply to post by JimOberg

 

Jim,

About 13 years ago I was sitting in a hot tub on a winter night. I noticed what thought was a satellite traversing the sky. I was raised in a household with a 10" telescope and frequently would spot satellites, so I thought I knew what it was. I was fairly used to seeing them.

This one was different. As it did it's little traverse from East/West it suddenly did a perfect 90 turn on a dime.

I know what I saw, and I'm still convinced to this day that what I saw wasn't a normal satellite.

I doubt it was a satellite of any kind. But it's useful to consult www.heavens-above.com to see what's going to be visible, or -- not too long afterwards -- what you might have recently seen.

The rare events I've seen where a satellite makes an impossible course change have involved a bright satellite high in the sky passing a star of equal brightness and in a brief attention hiccup I transfer my point of reference from one to the other briefly -- that's a real head spinner. At other times, two satellites may cross paths and a similar misperception occurs. But it's very rare, and what you describe sounds more like an aircraft of some sort, or a lit object much closer than you realized.

FireMoon
reply to post by draknoir2

 

And what I'm telling you is simply that you asked. That Lord Hill Norton in private, spoke at length about various incidents on a level that, to this day, is still kept from the public. You want to believe the shift foreman over the person who owns the company about company policy, then by all means, do so. Jim Oberg did not work for NASA during the whole Cooper incidents or those that sought info on the mythical Black Knight what Jim knows he was told by those who have a certain agenda. What Hill Norton was told were the details and testimony directly from those who took part in certain incidents and he spoke to numerous personnel involved in said incidents, "off the record". in fact, if you really know your onions about Ufology, you'll be able to tell me where Lord Hill Norton, in that interview, is not telling quite the whole truth?

FM is very imaginative [and wrong] in mis-describing what I know and how, but he's sensible enough to dodge away from questions he's been asked and can't answer, with distractionary wild space geese. That ought to be enough to let insightful readers judge whose assertions are more trustworthy.

reply to post by FireMoon

And what I'm telling you is simply that you asked. That Lord Hill Norton in private, spoke at length about various incidents on a level that, to this day, is still kept from the public. You want to believe the shift foreman over the person who owns the company about company policy, then by all means, do so. Jim Oberg did not work for NASA during the whole Cooper incidents or those that sought info on the mythical Black Knight what Jim knows he was told by those who have a certain agenda. What Hill Norton was told were the details and testimony directly from those who took part in certain incidents and he spoke to numerous personnel involved in said incidents, "off the record". in fact, if you really know your onions about Ufology, you'll be able to tell me where Lord Hill Norton, in that interview, is not telling quite the whole truth?

You've been asked to provide some kind of proof of what you speak of and all you continue to do is put up a smoke screen of unrelated topics or ignore it with an imaginary shroud of "secrecy".

I don't know Jim Oberg, never met the man, nor have I ever spoken to him. However, when I first was a member here, I researched his qualifications through different avenues and found out he was telling the truth. On the topic of the "black knight", I didn't just take his comments at face value, it was when he provided links to what he was told or had described, is when I realized he was being factual.

You seem to have a personal agenda against him for some reason that I never fully understood. Posting negatively about him in practically every thread he's involved in. Some things are completely nonsensical. Here's your opportunity to show you know what you're talking about by backing up your claims with things other than this - "trust me, I know" type of attitude.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


The only people dodging are Jim and his usual acolytes. I've given you the name of a guy who outranks Jin by about 150 grades in the pecking order who I met on a couple of occasions and listened to in private talk a bout various sightings. I do see a group of people who either being dumb for dumb's sake o,r are just too uneducated to understand what is being said. That you obviously can't quite make logical assumptions from the facts you are given is really not my problem.

i've been there and done the work and all I see on here from the likes of you, is a lot of opinion and hot air based on zero knowledge or your own investigations and you expect to be taken seriously? Here's the truth for you plain as it can be made. Jim isn't in the loop, is not need to know, so he talks from a position of ignorance on much of the subject born of the attitude of a lifelong company man.

I am reminded of Stanton Freidman's retort to some know it all scientist on a British TV show when he claimed. "I'm a scientist, if had any evidence of a non human intelligence I'd be shouting it from the roofs"..Stanton calmly smiled and replied "Now you know why you've never been asked to work on such a project".

I have made my own way in the world of Ufology seeking some kind of answer. Do i have one to share? No, Do i have theories? Yes, most of us do. Have i heard and seen testimony that is not in the public domain that should be? You bet your bottom dollar I have and I will along with hundreds of others, continue to attempt to bring it to light whenever possible.

i don't care, what know it alls such as you think, you really aren't worth the hassle however, when I see the likes of Jim spouting his self congratulatory mythology as fact then that's when I speak to give a different perspective. That I've managed to rattle some of the ATS know it all's cages tells me all i need to know and that I am on the right track and that those reading these forums with knowledge, or seeking knowledge, rather than uninformed opinions know that as well.

Being the age I am and unlike the USA , Britain has a different history with regards to Ufology and how it has been dealt with officially. There have always been those right at the top who have, in private, been willing to speak openly about what they know and have seen or been told. Funny how many of them , now deceased were ex military who lived through a time when they often went weeks without proper sleep and indulged in some serious partying when they were off duty. Through that experience, they developed an affinity for those of the next generation who refused to simply accept at face value everything they are told. Their loyalty and their inbuilt sense of duty stopped them from telling far more in public however, if they felt they could trust you, over brandy and a smoke they would open up and tell you things that made you sit there slack jawed and ask... "Are you serious?"

These self same people would contact various people they felt they could trust and pass snippets of information to them, nothing huge just little things like "Why don't you ask X where they were on the Y of Z". Or it might be, "Don't bother with that one, it's myth and not worth bothering with". They would do that because in part, they thought they were fighting a war in 39-45 about freedom and people's right to be treated as intelligent adults.

it's a game and so long as people keep prodding and probing eventually, something will fall from the tree that the know it alls will be mightily red faced about and realise that, they are the ones who have been duped and taken for simpletons. Whether it aliens or not is actually irrelevant, it's simply that we are being lied to on consistent basis and have been for 70 years, about the amount of decent evidence to support there is a very real phenomenon happening in our skies.

I'm willing to bet that Jim had no idea the Aussies had tracking data on an object during that flight and he's scrabbling around trying to find someone back at the office who remembers it as well. See, the classic mistake so many Americans make, they forget, there's a whole wide world out there outside the boundaries of the USA and they have their own agendas that don't necessarily fit with that of NASA. In exactly the same way, the Danish released data on Operation Mainbrace that would have never seen the light of day had it been reported in Britain. The arrogant attitude of the British probably offended the Danes and they did it, as much to put the Brits nose out of joint, as they did from any willingness to talk about UFOs in general.

And there's' the rub about Ufology. if the full details and witness testimonies from Operation Mainbrace alone, were to be announced in a calm and considered fashion on the news world wide tomorrow then, virtually everyone would be wanting to know just what those objects were and why we've spent 70 odd years denying there's something serious to be investigated.

As it is, as others from the world of Psyops have pointedly made reference to on this forum. Since the 1960s, there are hints and clues littered throughout the world of science fiction TV and film. Now maybe, I have a curious advantage over many on this forum in that, given my age, I was just lucky to straddle two generations at a time when there were probably, no more than a couple of hundred people in Britain bothering to do any serious research inot UFOs. That meant, when there were gatherings, there were a hell of a lot of those there who really did know their stuff and were willing to talk about it. One thing I do remember was this, the one's with the most knowledge, not one of them ever published a book on UFOs under their own name . I suspect one did using another author as cover however, I can't claim I know that, it's just a hunch. Unlike the USA, the early history of UFO research in Britain was littered with the likes of Gordon Creighton, Lord Hill Norton, Bruce Barrymore Halpenny, Rex Dutta etc etc, people with connections and direct on the ground experience up the wazoo. Stand up people whose conscience's were disturbed by having to lie and be part of a lie about UFOs . Three of those four I met and spoke with at length, one of that three i'd call a friend. Funnily enough, I tend to believe what they told me about certain incidents over some company man from NASA with a track record of avoiding the difficult questions and only ever appearing on shows that set out to dismiss the UFO phenomenon.

I don't ask you to believe me, I don't really care if you believe me, I merely seek to stick a few interesting tit bits out there for people to chase down in opposition to the self congratulatory smug attitude certain people delight in on this forum and elsewhere. The absence of the know it alls and the company men from threads authored by the likes of Karl 12 and the The honourable GUT's Aviary thread, actually speaks volumes about them.

FireMoon
...
I'm willing to bet that Jim had no idea the Aussies had tracking data on an object during that flight and he's scrabbling around trying to find someone back at the office who remembers it as well. ...

FM is quite correct that I have never seen evidence of Aussie tracking of an object near Cooper's MA-9, and I wish he'd share it if he has such evidence. Gordon Cooper apparently never heard of such evidence either, since he never even mentions the story in "Leap of Faith", the autobiography named after that same space flight.

FM also referred to direct testimony, to a tape, and to a transcript testifying to this tracking, but so far he has declined to show it to anyone else. In the fifty years since that mission, it seems, he's the only person who has ever claimed to have seen it.

I really would like to see it, verify it, and as needed modify or abandon my earlier investigation results.

And can we move this off-topic digression over to the Cooper thread, where it better fits than 'Black Knight" -- unless FM is suggesting Cooper actually encountered BK in orbit. Is that so?

Please keep it civil folks

Keep it on topic and off each other. You all know the rules of conduct here.

reply to post by JimOberg


No, I'm not the only person to have heard the tape and you know that Jim, I have never claimed I was some special case people opened up to. There are probably to my knowledge alone, 30-40 at least heard that tape, some now dead, some left the field and probably a dozens still knocking around. Iv'e taken from this thread what I was seeking, I put the bait out you rose like the fish i was hunting and went straight for the bait. Namely, when it comes to Cooper and the Back knight your knickers get in a twist faster than anything anything else to do with UFOs. The chance to stick Cooper and he Black Knight together was just too tempting to miss and for once, I thought, hell why not chuck in something that you were told and heard all those years ago and see if Jim bites...and boy did you bite...

So maybe you'd like to enlighten us all about, just why you have this thing about Cooper and the Black Knight?

FireMoon
reply to post by draknoir2

 

And what I'm telling you is simply that you asked. That Lord Hill Norton in private, spoke at length about various incidents on a level that, to this day, is still kept from the public. You want to believe the shift foreman over the person who owns the company about company policy, then by all means, do so. Jim Oberg did not work for NASA during the whole Cooper incidents or those that sought info on the mythical Black Knight what Jim knows he was told by those who have a certain agenda. What Hill Norton was told were the details and testimony directly from those who took part in certain incidents and he spoke to numerous personnel involved in said incidents, "off the record". in fact, if you really know your onions about Ufology, you'll be able to tell me where Lord Hill Norton, in that interview, is not telling quite the whole truth?

Actually listen to his interview you can clearly see he was frustrated because the United States wouldnt give him access. So all he knew is what he read in the papers i was in the military a long time and everything is very compartmentalized and information is on need to know basis. People think security clearances give you access to everything but they dont most information in the military is need to know. Somebody figured he didnt need to know what happened. Let me run a hypothetical by you hes saying theres only two possibilities for the incident well i can think of a third. What if the US military wanted to say test a stealth chopper what might be a good test. Well how about test it over another country and see if it can be spotted say fly it through there capitol maybe? And lets say there was a problem where would they land a secure us military base perhaps? Win win if they can get out in time great if not easy to cover it up. Think of all the places an alien could visit why a secluded area in a top secret military base im sure even aliens are smart enough to figure out landing in a military base is going to attract attention quickly.

Then of course there is all ways a natural phenomenon such as ball lighting Theres also places that have similar reports of ghost lights all over the globe there not UFOs in fact one place im thinking of is in west virginia. They have been seeing lights since the civil war in this forest to this day know one knows what causes it but local residents blame the devil if that helps. Now i think these lights occur around areas with seismic activity but science has yet to explain them.After all what scientist wants to be known for studying ghost lights lol.

FireMoon
reply to post by JimOberg

 

No, I'm not the only person to have heard the tape and you know that Jim, I have never claimed I was some special case people opened up to. There are probably to my knowledge alone, 30-40 at least heard that tape, some now dead, some left the field and probably a dozens still knocking around. ......

Sure you are. You're the only person anybody has ever heard of making these claims to have heard the tape, and if you say, "I know about tens of other people too", that doesn't transform it into a multi-witness report, it's still just one guy CLAIMING there are other witnesses.

Can any of them be named and verified?

And why would Gordon Cooper, supposedly the on-site witness, lie about this or cover it up, as you are implying? He left it out of ALL his video interviews and his autobiography, and when asked, explicitly denied it had ever happened. What tortuous mind-twisting do you perform in order to believe the opposite of what he said? Where is there a smidgeon of checkable evidence that his consistent denials were bogus?

My background as history enthusiast of 'space mysteries', and my professional background with orbital trajectories from undergraduate special projects, NASA-funded graduate school, orbital monitoring for the USAF and orbital design and operations for NASA. all combine to motivate me to step into areas of my expertise when enthusiasts get lost in unfamiliar jargon and unearthly concepts. It's why I wrote up my "99 FAQs About Space UFO Videos". If you have a single factual problem with anything written there, please raise it.

As for Cooper, he is certainly one of the major witnesses claimed in the UFO lore to provide proof of extraordinary phenomena. Since we had met even before his flight, and had later corresponded extensively, and since I had been repeatedly challenged by UFO experts to try to 'solve' his stories, I responded constructively over the past thirty years. That allowed me to get in touch with numerous witnesses now no longer living, witnesses that nobody else had ever looked for or found, and now never will.

All of this evidence is on record and subject to verification. Unlike all of yours.

reply to post by FireMoon

The only people dodging are Jim and his usual acolytes. I've given you the name of a guy who outranks Jin by about 150 grades in the pecking order who I met on a couple of occasions and listened to in private talk a bout various sightings. I do see a group of people who either being dumb for dumb's sake o,r are just too uneducated to understand what is being said. That you obviously can't quite make logical assumptions from the facts you are given is really not my problem.i've been there and done the work and all I see on here from the likes of you, is a lot of opinion and hot air based on zero knowledge or your own investigations and you expect to be taken seriously? Here's the truth for you plain as it can be made. Jim isn't in the loop, is not need to know, so he talks from a position of ignorance on much of the subject born of the attitude of a lifelong company man.

You need to reread what I said. I made the point that I didn't take Jim solely on his word(what you might call 'hot air') regarding the subject of this thread. Once he provided the link to the video of the thermal blanket floating away during the spacewalk, it was clear that is what it was. It's simple common sense once you watch the video and compare the shapes. If your spatial visualization skills are lacking, I can't help you out. If you still want to believe this is some ancient satellite based on internet lore, can't help you with that either. But, when you have actual visual confirmation of what you're seeing and you're still in denial about it, it sounds more like your own pride is in the way, rather than looking at the subject seriously and admitting fault.

I am reminded of Stanton Freidman's retort to some know it all scientist on a British TV show when he claimed. "I'm a scientist, if had any evidence of a non human intelligence I'd be shouting it from the roofs"..Stanton calmly smiled and replied "Now you know why you've never been asked to work on such a project".

How is: "I'm a scientist, if had any evidence of a non human intelligence I'd be shouting it from the roofs" a know-it-all statement? It's the truth and a fact. Just as you or anyone else that would have that evidence would do. Stanton Friedman would be doing it as well, but all he's dealt with are second-hand stories and going off of a belief. He loves to lecture about it, but he has no tangible evidence of anything. When he's approached with something like being wrong with the Betty Hill star map, his credibility would go further by admitting fault, but he chooses to skirt around the issue. If he's in search for the truth and facts, why not just admit when he's wrong?
LINK

it's a game and so long as people keep prodding and probing eventually, something will fall from the tree that the know it alls will be mightily red faced about and realise that, they are the ones who have been duped and taken for simpletons. Whether it aliens or not is actually irrelevant, it's simply that we are being lied to on consistent basis and have been for 70 years, about the amount of decent evidence to support there is a very real phenomenon happening in our skies.

Nothing new there, it's the same ole song and dance. It will continue on for another 70 years. Any tangible evidence, in any country in the world, is wrapped up in government secrets for the last 65+ years. Pretty convenient write-off. A little too convenient when you add in all the other countries that would have to be involved.

We're asking for checkable evidence from firemoon about what he claims is a UFO encounter on Gordon Cooper's Mercury flight in May 1963, and all he has to offer is his memory of other people telling him stuff, transcripts and tapes he saw that somehow have now vanished, dozens of people who saw the same thing but whose names can't be revealed. Stories by some high official who read all the UFO books he could find, but had no direct knowledge. Same old pseudo-evidence, alas.

Also, what connection he claims of that story with the subject of this thread, a pretty important issue unless he just likes to hijack threads to talk about what HE wants to talk about, no matter what the OP intended.

If he's just 'playing games' to trick people, I suggest he's straying near the margins of the ATS terms of service. But since it so clearly reveals his evidence-free hand-waving, I make no protest.

I would still like to see ANY evidence that supports this explicit claim about MA-9 and an anomalous object.

JimOberg
FireMoon
... "I'm willing to bet that Jim had no idea the Aussies had tracking data on an object during that flight and he's scrabbling around trying to find someone back at the office who remembers it as well. ... "

FM is quite correct that I have never seen evidence of Aussie tracking of an object near Cooper's MA-9, and I wish he'd share it if he has such evidence. Gordon Cooper apparently never heard of such evidence either, since he never even mentions the story in "Leap of Faith", the autobiography named after that same space flight.

FM also referred to direct testimony, to a tape, and to a transcript testifying to this tracking, but so far he has declined to show it to anyone else. In the fifty years since that mission, it seems, he's the only person who has ever claimed to have seen it.

I really would like to see it, verify it, and as needed modify or abandon my earlier investigation results.

Oh, and regarding Firemoon's assertion,
FireMoon ==... "I'm willing to bet that ...he's scrabbling around trying to find someone back at the office who remembers it as well. ..."

I'll take that bet.
Wager: 30-day vow of silence on ATS for whomever loses.
Jury: Posters on this thread

OK, FM, what's your proof?

Or if no bet, how about just retracting the claim?

My first encounter with Cooper:



I'm the tall skinny cadet to his right.

FireMoon
I put the bait out you rose like the fish i was hunting and went straight for the bait. Namely, when it comes to Cooper and the Back knight your knickers get in a twist faster than anything anything else to do with UFOs. The chance to stick Cooper and he Black Knight together was just too tempting to miss and for once, I thought, hell why not chuck in something that you were told and heard all those years ago and see if Jim bites...and boy did you bite...

It's like you're some sort of evil genius... and all those times where you pretended to not be able to back up any of your claims with actual evidence - brilliant! Bravo!