The 'false" day of reckoning !

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Jesus is here telling his Apostles that some of them will not die before the Kingdom of God is established, and God and Christ return to judge the souls of men. Here we are, 2000 years later, and the Christian Kingdom has not, nor was it ever fully established. God and Christ have also not returned to judge the souls of men, and yet, all of Jesus' Apostles are dead and gone.

Don't know what happened in my post. Sorry about that.

Try to make this short. Jesus did establish His kingdom when He died. His kingdom (New Jerusalem) was offered with His new covenant through His death. Some of those who heard this were the ones that He said this to. Jesus never revealed the kingdom of heaven while alive.

originally posted by: Wandering Scribe
reply to post by 1PLA1

 

Matthew 16:27-28

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus is here telling his Apostles that some of them will not die before the Kingdom of God is established, and God and Christ return to judge the souls of men. Here we are, 2000 years later, and the Christian Kingdom has not, nor was it ever fully established. God and Christ have also not returned to judge the souls of men, and yet, all of Jesus' Apostles are dead and gone.

Go ahead and argue however you'd like. The scripture says Jesus will come back to judge men's souls in the life time of the Apostles. He didn't.

Also, nearly every religion has some form of judgment involved in death:

In ancient Egyptian religion the jackal-god Anubis placed your heart upon a set of scales. The law-goddess Maāt supplies her feather of truth, and the ibis-god Thoth measures your heart against the weight of truth. If your heart balanced the feather then the legendary first Pharaoh, Osiris, welcomed you into the Fields of Osiris (Paradise). If your heart was heavier than Truth (weighed down with lies and evil), then the lion-hippopotamus-crocodile-goddess Ammit devours you, body and soul.

In ancient Persian religion the god Rasnu waits at a bridge with a set of scales. Every soul must walk across this bridge upon death. As they do so, Rasnu adds weight, and counterweight, to each of the scales, which effect the soul attempting to cross the bridge. Too much weight to one side, or the other (being evil in life) causes the soul to fall off the bridge, and into a hell-realm where they suffer for all eternity.

In ancient Hindu religion the soul of the dead traveled through the Bardos, on its way to meet with Yama, the Lord of Death. Yama produced a scale, and would set black and white stones upon the scale. Too many black stones (negative Karma) resulted in the soul being reincarnated as a lesser-form, or cast into a hell-realm. Too many white stones (too much good Karma) resulted in the soul being reincarnated into a higher caste, or some paradise-realm. I'd imagine balancing the stones on the scales, as the Buddha taught, would negate the process of reincarnation, and release one from the wheel of Samsara.

In ancient Greek religion the goddess Themis wore a blindfold, and stood with a set of scales in the Asphodel Meadows of the Underworld. Attended by three kings, Æacos, Minos, and Rhadamanthos, Themis would weigh the life of the shade to determine whether its ultimate fate was the Elysian Island (paradise), or to be handed off to Alecto, Megæra, and Tisiphone—the Erinyes—who would drag the damned off to Tartarus.

And those are just four that early Christian cultists would have been familiar with. So yeah, if I'm not worried about the judgment of Osiris, Rasnu, Yama, or Themis, why would I bat an eyelash at Jesus Christ? He's just another in a long line of self-important messiah's who claimed to be the way, the Truth, and the life. I'm no longer impressed by the empty promises of messiahs and their scriptures.

~ Wandering Scribe

None have tasted death at this time. Everyone who has lived and died are in some form of soul sleep. John clearly stated that none have ascended except He who has descended first and that is Christ. There are no humans in heaven at this time. There is no one in hell either since the final judgment has not occurred.

a reply to: [post=18633676]guitarplayer[/post

None have tasted death at this time. Everyone who has lived and died are in some form of soul sleep. John clearly stated that none have ascended except He who has descended first and that is Christ. There are no humans in heaven at this time. There is no one in hell either since the final judgment has not occurred.

Source -1611 King James Bible
Not intended to argue but only my understanding.

Luke 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus promised His companion to be with Him in paradise that very day that they both would die.

The word paradise in NT is used only three times. This would be the first of the three.

2nd Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is shown to be in the third heaven. This tells me that Jesus' companion was brought up to the third heaven that day that he died beside Jesus. This is the second time that paradise is used.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Paradise which is located in the third heaven contains the trees and water of life. This is the third time the word paradise is used in this bible.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The tree of life is for the living. Not the dead.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Read the entire 22nd chapter to truly understand.

The tree and water of celestial life is located in paradise which is located in the third heaven and is New Jerusalem. By this I understand that the companion of Jesus was given conscious everlasting celestial life that same day he died with Jesus.

It is believed to be true that while Jesus was alive that no man had as yet ascended into heaven simply because the kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem) was not offered as yet with the new covenant of Christ Jesus. The kingdom of heaven was established as Jesus sealed the new covenant with His blood. All covenants between God and men are sealed with blood which is the life of creation.

As a person now will die, that person is immediately judged in a conscious state and sentenced to either New Jerusalem or Sheol (hell). That is the doctrine of Jesus. Rabbinic doctrine is altogether different than Christ's doctrine. Rabbinic doctrine does not offer paradise as is understood in the KJV bible.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
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None have tasted death at this time. Everyone who has lived and died are in some form of soul sleep. John clearly stated that none have ascended except He who has descended first and that is Christ. There are no humans in heaven at this time. There is no one in hell either since the final judgment has not occurred.

This is incorrect .Everyone that has physically died is in the realm of death (Hades) and are DEAD (not soul sleep or paradise etc, etc).NONE will ever enter a place called Hell because it does not exist.No one is in a place "heaven" because there is no "place" heaven.Heaven is translated from the Greek ouranos and is not a place but a state of mind .A person "lives" in their heavens (their mind) it is what they perceive their life through however that perception(observation) is false because it’s foundation is “belief” which is not knowing.The amalgamation of all of a persons experiences form their belief in faith of “their” Belief System religion.That “perception” is false because it can NOT know reality (Truth).That is “living” in your heavens.

The Kingdom of the heavens is when a person is “freed from the bondage” of imperception(their BS religion of belief).The disciples were being “given” to “know” the mysteries of the Kingdom(ruler-ship) of their heavens”..they were “being” freed form the bondage of “their religion”(the foundational belief being Judaism) In other words they were “entering in” but could not be completely freed until they entered in the kingdom of the creator God(Truth and Life).

The only way to enter in the Kingdom of the creator God is to first die a physical death then be resurrected from the realm of death and be delivered from the realm of imperception (your BS religion) and then enter into Life.Only then can a person “know” the creator God.The only person to do that already had entered the Kingdom of their heavens and died and was resurrected to Life…..Yahoshua.

a reply to: guitarplayer

Go ahead and argue however you'd like. The scripture says Jesus will come back to judge men's souls in the life time of the Apostles.

Arguments do not solve problems. I will not argue theology because theology is nothing but opinions based upon unprovable beliefs. Nevertheless we can assume facts while discussing a subject in the realm of theology but remember that theology is not necessarily fact.

The Hebrew accepted OT bible does not use the word hell simply because hell is a Greek connotation. The Hebrew word meaning hell is (nether world) and is used 91 times in 43 verses in the accepted Hebrew bible. You might have the Septuagint text translated from Greek to English or the Masoretic text translated from Hebrew to English and those translations may use the words hell.

Jesus taught to both Hebrew and Greek speaking Jews and Gentiles. The original letters of the Apostles were drafted in Hebrew and Aramaic but preserved in Greek manuscripts. With that understanding I see that in the KJV NT Jesus taught the Greek meaning of nether world (hell) twenty times. In all twenty verses of the NT the meaning is very clear that the nether world (hell) is a definite place and not a mindset.

Nevertheless the meanings are the same to the English understanding. Jesus and His Apostles used the Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek languages in the biblical era and they understood this Hell (Greek) or Nether World (Hebrew) as an established place in this earth which was believed to be in Sheol. Actually the ancient Hebrews believed that Sheol had seven compartments to contain the spirits of people.

As far as judging a spirit of a soul, that too is a matter of what you choose to believe. Jesus' doctrine is that every living person is a soul and not has a soul. The terrestrial body is a soul which has a spirit of life. The soul perishes completely and forever but the spirit has the celestial life which governs the soul. As the soul perishes it is the spirit that is judged and either rewarded or punished. The memories of a soul are attached to the spirit and not the soul. The soul contains the receptors of the spirit's desires and if a physical receptor of the soul is damaged then the spirit is unable to function in that soul.

It is with that theology that we now come to Resurrection. Resurrection is actually Re Birth. As the soul dies and leaves a spirit, that spirit is judged and sentenced. If it is condemned it remains a terrestrial conscious entity in Sheol. This is called a naked spirit which means it remains unclothed and imprisoned in a terrestrial containment. If the spirit is accepted it then receives a celestial garb of glory and experiences resurrection from the terrestrial realm to the celestial realm. The Apostle John describes this as resurrection or re birth. This applies to all humans as of today.

As this world will one day end then there will be a last day when all of the human race will perish and all will face a last day judgement. This last day judgment will not apply to the people that faced death prior to this last day. Those who have one by one died prior to the last day have already been judged as they have died. These will not face another judgment. One cannot be in Sheol or New Jerusalem without already being judged. In this last day judgment hell (Sheol) will then be cast into the ethereal lake of fire as they have also already been judged.

What I have touched upon is the understood doctrine of Christ Jesus and His Apostles by the first century Christrians. Jesus has never been acknowledged in biblical authority as being a mindset of any sort. Anyone can twist their own philosophy and theology to satisfy their own whimsical minds but it still remains that Hell or Nether World is an actual place of terrestrial and celestial locations.