We Are Humans, Like It or Not

reply to post by jheherrin

Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. We are animal.

We share their DNA. Unlike some people here, I don't consider the body as the main determing factor of who we are. Not because you share the DNA of Hitler makes you a clone of Hitler.
Unlike animals, we have a choice to do what is wrong and what is right. We have a conscience; at their state of evolution, animals don't.
So, I repeat: We're not animals.

You have a very distorted, unrealistic view of human beings.

Really? So you don't care if you survive at the expense of others? You don't care if you deprive food from a family so you can survive?

The media? Try science. Are you getting your information from the bible?

Science? You mean the researches funded by guys like Rockefeller and George Soros? Where the researches emphasize alot on the fact that we're nothing but animals and needs trimming, the same way that we trimmed the deers when they became "too abundant"?
I don't know if you read history books, but science, before, dealt with all possibilities, including the one that we were more advanced than animals.
It was real science that categorize us as "Humans" and not "Monkeys". Now, "science" brought us back in the Dark Ages where we are now "animals".

Not one shred of proof for a soul.

Then right back at you, jheherrin: read and look at documentaries. Real scientists are more and more considering that humans may have souls, or if you don't like the name, a higher and more evolved conscience.

Morality and ethics... I'm guessing you haven't studied that subject much either, because there are so many problems in human ideas about morality and ethics, you could write books about it.

Oh, so now you don't believe in morality or ethics? I wonder, if you really believe that we have no ethics or morality, why haven't you done anything immoral? Why not having robbed a bank. stealed a car, or killed your neighbour? What stops people from doing all that is ethics and morality.
Those scientifical documentaries you asked me to see? Studies showed that the reason psychopaths and serial killers existed and did what they did, is because their brain does not comprehend the notion of morality and ethics. For them, these notions does not exists, and thus, they can do whatever they want to.

Most people would kill/steal in a heartbeat if it meant saving their starving, dying children. Very naive claim. Morality disappears entirely in an angry, fearful crowd. You should study crowd behavior, then your fantastical illusions about our nature may get a wake up call.

I would more wonder why would a crowd be angry and fearful. As far as I know, this comes when a higher leader doesn't do his job right and hurts the population. Would there be nothing to complain, there wouldn't be a need for an angry crowd. If your child is starving and dying, it isn't the fault of the other guy who also have a starving and dying child.
So again, why is killing to survive the only solution? Why not ally with each other, and thus have more chance of surviving?

The proof is everywhere, throughout our history, and shows your statement to be completely false. We even had a hand in killing off our competition, the neanderthals.

And you're proud of it? Are you proud knowing that entire civilizations are killed off by people like you? Killed by "Might makes Right" obsessed people?

The history of our species tells a completely different story. I don't think you really understand what a human really is. A social primate, with social heirarchies that are completely normal to the species.

And look what this social hierarchy got us into: the top of the pyramid having everything, and the lower classes like all of us having crumps of bread.
I thought we agreed long ago that pyramidal hierarchy was a bad idea, and agreed on trying to make everyone equal. To distinguish us from animals. Who, in the case of wolves and hyenas, lets the alphas eat before the omegas, and don't care if the omegas dies of starvation.

Who is this Shadow? Satan? X-Men villian?

Really? You don't even know about the Elite that pulls the string of your news and governments?

You think because we are animals we should be running around and throwing poo at each other and acting like wolves and monkeys? Nonsense. We are still animals, nevertheless.

We have animal DNA. But we act nothing like animals. We are capable of complex thoughts, sending people on the moon, philosophical debate, probing the past, the present, and the future of our universe. We're capable of helping a friend, instead of eating him up. So yes, although we have their DNA, we are nothing like animals. These traits are the reason why we're called "humans".

Yes, who wants to be like all those other souless animals that have roamed the world for billions of years now? Only we humans have these wonderful 'souls', huh? Such tripe.

Got something against that? If you admire so much the lifestyles and philosophy of animals, why don't you go spend a week in a wolf's pack? No food, squarce water, squarce shelter, not even sleep. And, you get bitten by nasty insects. This is the bite-swollen face of your future. Tell me how it goes and how you liked it.

I always get a good laugh out of the idea we aren't animals. We are special little creatures, unique to the planet. We even have these wonderful 'souls', so that makes us 'higher' than everything else, huh? Complete and total nonsense, but I know I would waste my time giving you links and pointing you towards research that tells a different story about our species. You have your mind made up.

Hitler too said that people, including Jews and Africans, were monkeys. Are you saying you're agreeing with Hitler and eugenism's philosophy?

Human utopian ideas are pure fantasy, made up by the religious/spiritual-minded who would rather make up fantasy about our species than embrace facts.

So your role-model is not to evolve into a better person, but to become a dog?

I look forward to you exaggerting my post into something it's not, which will probably be that by having my opinion (based on facts) that I am immoral, selfish, hateful, domineering...etc.

See, you get the idea! Even yourself can predict yourself as being immoral, selfish, hateful, and domineering.

reply to post by jheherrin

They see themselves as 'good', and they mistakingly try to observe and view collective human behavior thru their own moral lense. Then you get arguments about how we should act as a collective, even though we don't act that way as a collective and (arguably) never have.

So you never heard about the Red Cross? You know, the guys and women who volonteers to help people throughout countries and wars, regardless of religions or politics, whose main goal is to heal and take care of people.
So you never heard about the Elite and Red Cross. And yet, you're the one telling me to Deny Ignorance....

reply to post by Hopechest

Humans made it because of their survival instincts not because of helping each other out. Homosapiens survived..that would be you and me...by wiping out the other versions of humans such as the Neanderthals.

Scientists don't even know how the Neanderthals disapeared. There was only an assumption, which newspaper took as fact, and because you believe so much the newspaper, you took as a fact.

Where is this rule written exactly?

Nowhere. But sometimes we have to stop worshipping an empty brain, and come up with something to prevent chaos.

reply to post by Hopechest

Many animals and humans will and have worked together when it is beneficial. They have also destroyed each other when survival was at stake.

There are animals that will revert to cannibalism if their survival is threatened and humans are just a higher form of animal.

Forgive me for forgetting the exact period, I'm thinking possibly the Younger Dryas period, but its estimated that human population fell as low as 2000-5000 people. We don't know exactly how those few hunter-gatherer tribes behaved but I find it hard to believe they were all that friendly towards each other.

And you want to embrace their ways? Embracing cannibalism just because animals do it? What movie did you saw?!

double post, sorry

reply to post by jheherrin

Boehm, having explored data from 48 societies spread across the globe, ranging from small hunting and gathering bands to more sedentary chiefdoms, suggested that with the advent of anatomically modern humans who continued to live in small groups and had not yet domesticated plants and animals, it is very likely that all human societies practised egalitarianism and that most of the time they did so very successfully.

Exactly. What was wrong with that? Why do we resort to "Might makes right" and cannibalism when egalitarianism worked for all of these 48 societies?

reply to post by TheNewRevolution


I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't apply to most. In a recent poll, 25% of people would like to commit a murder if laws were removed. Also, ever heard of necrophillia?
Freud's death pulsion? Romanticization of murder in movies and novels? Some people look forward to killing people; and that is dangerous in time of survival.
That is why that I encourage to explore all other possibilities before killing someone, even in time of extreme survival.

reply to post by starheart

But yes, of course I wouldn't give up my food to a gun-holding lunatic. But even then, is killing necessary? I could just wound the guy, and if he understand that he doesn't need to point a gun at me in order to have food, then he'll get my help. Why absolutely kill?

In this case, yes, killing is necessary.

Because he'll return for revenge, and possibly bring buddies, and know where to find you.

No, in a post SHTF event, if someone threatens our lives, their own lives are forfeit. We'll have the "rules of trade" posted clearly all around the property. Deviation from that, will be seen as an attack and be handled as such. Sucks that it would have to be that way, but there will be many of those who think they can take what they will at gunpoint. I haven't fleshed it all out yet, but some of the basic rules of trade...

1) Approach with your hands up, palms open and facing forward.
2) Walk slowly along the designated path and stop at the designated spot.
3) Only one trader allowed in at a time.
4) Once escorts arrive, trader will be searched (well) and disarmed (any items to be returned to the trader upon departure) before entering the ranch.
5) All trades are final.
6) Trade only takes place during daylight hours. Any approaching at night will be shot.
7) Becoming a frequent trader has perks.
8) Dishonest trades may result in being banned from future trade.
9) Any groups must maintain distance and hold at designated markers or further.

We'd also post the common things we offer, and what we commonly seek for trade, etc.

etc., etc.

Originally posted by starheart
I have recently fell upon several survival threads by ATS members that revealed a disturbing thought: that many ATS members, which I believed to be civilized,intelligent, and kind people, actually supported the idea of killing innocent people to get their foods, shelters, and weapons. People that I thought were supposed to show an example to other civilians. To show how respect and kindness had not disappeared from civilization. And here I find that not even some but many members encourage selfishness, savagery, animal-like instincts and thinking, disdain for other people's life, feeling of superiority...
Well, guess what? We're not animals! We're friggin humans, humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else. NOT people that kills, that don't care if only themselves survives at the expense of everyone else. Because guess what? The Shadow is exactly doing this: surviving at the expense of citizens. Ready to let us starve to death, not have a home, not have medical care, just so they can live in luxury. You hate them, and yet you want to become exactly them.

And I know where these "Mighty makes right" survival thoughts comes from. They come from movies and TV shows like "Hunger Games" and "Revolution"; these movies promotes the thoughts of "you survive only if you kill everyone else and get their things".
Well we're not in a friggin movie!! That is NOT the way to go. We're not wolves and hyenas, where the alphas let the omegas (including their childrens) starves if there isn't enough food for everybody. We are HUMANS, civilized, kind, compassionate. We help when other ones are in trouble, we don't kill them. We share, we don't steal from dead bodies we created. Otherwise, we become like the rich and whealthy peoples who doesn't care about lower classes, that you hate so much and who put us in trouble.
No, unlike what the media wants you to believe, we're not animals. We have a soul, morality, and ethics. And it tells us that even during survival mode, is it plain WRONG to kill for only you to survive. It's damn plain selfish and very wrong morally. We are not alpha wolves, we don't work on "might makes right"; that's the Shadow's philosophy, and you don't like it, do you? Well don't be that neither, or else, you aren't a very good example for civilized humanity. Even during survival, we help each other out, we share. That's being human. That's what the media and the Shadow tries to take away from humanity. They don't want you to think like a human, they want you to think like a wolf.
Well damn them. We won't surrender and give up our soul to become an animal. I don't know about you, but I'll prefer dying knowing I helped other people survive, than live knowing I forbade life to other people. That's real bravery and heroism during survival: knowing you helped people survive too, not "Look! I have more food than everyone else! I got it from the other guy that I killed!"

I have lurked for a long time and I'm not afraid to say that this forum is full of psychotics and sociopaths. I'm fairly certain that the feds are monitoring and logging a lot of information from some of the madmen that post here.

reply to post by starheart
And as predicted, if you disagree with the 'higher' lifeform bunk, you become a 'bad' person, support negativity, even labeled a sociopath...etc. SMH

Unlike animals, we have a choice to do what is wrong and what is right.

Right and wrong are not universal concepts. What an individual sees as 'right' or 'wrong' has its origins in our genetics and cultural influences, and beyond that can be shown to be subjective. Animals do indeed have their own sense of 'right' or 'wrong'. We are animals.

Really? So you don't care if you survive at the expense of others? You don't care if you deprive food from a family so you can survive?

I never said or implied any such thing. Your comment was:

We're friggin humans, humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else. NOT people that kills, that don't care if only themselves survives at the expense of everyone else.

And I replied that you didn't have a real understanding of human beings, because observation of our collective historical behavior shows a different story than what you claim we are NOT supposed to be. Yes, we help each other help for survival/evolutionary purposes, but we also kill each other for the same reasons.

Science? You mean the researches funded by guys like Rockefeller and George Soros? Where the researches emphasize alot on the fact that we're nothing but animals and needs trimming, the same way that we trimmed the deers when they became "too abundant"?

When populations of other animals become out of control, we are forced to cull some of them. While I'd rather not see that done to human beings (killed off..etc), there is no question our resources are strained and populations should be better controlled. The "same way we trimmed the deers"? You love rhetoric, huh?

science, before, dealt with all possibilities, including the one that we were more advanced than animals.

Advanced in what way? That flimsy moral sense argument again? Beyond that, technology has not yet proven to have any long-term survival impact on our species. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

It was real science that categorize us as "Humans" and not "Monkeys". Now, "science" brought us back in the Dark Ages where we are now "animals".

Science catagorizies us as social primates. I know people like you balk at that, and bring up the old tired stuff about us not flinging poo, so we can't be like monkeys, but we are still social primates. If anything, science brought us out of the superstitious nonsense people believed for ages, that we were oh-so-special and higher than the other creatures on the planet because God said so. Thank you, science.

Then right back at you, jheherrin: read and look at documentaries. Real scientists are more and more considering that humans may have souls, or if you don't like the name, a higher and more evolved conscience.

Oh, there's some new hypothesis banded about that might allow for the existence of a soul, but ideas are not evidence. Can you point out my error and direct me to some sources? Please, not the soul weight stuff again. I'll say this. If we have souls, so does every other creature, including those pesky cockroaches. But souls don't seem to mean much to spiritual types if they are not exclusive to human beings. And a higher and more evolved conscience as compared to what??? You just claimed earlier that a conscience was exclusive to human beings. Can you please explain exactly what you mean by how exactly we have a 'more evolved conscience'?

Oh, so now you don't believe in morality or ethics?

How on earth did you get that out of what I stated?? I've stated our ideas about morality and ethics have been challenged and shown to have serious problems, especially in light of universal concepts of 'right/wrong good/evil' and especially metaphysical ideas about the subject. I believe we have cultural, genetic, and subjective ideas about what constitutes 'right' and 'wrong' for our species. The rest of it... pure woo.

Studies showed that the reason psychopaths and serial killers existed and did what they did, is because their brain does not comprehend the notion of morality and ethics. For them, these notions does not exists, and thus, they can do whatever they want to.

Studies have also shown that sociopaths have been around for a long time and might actually serve a purpose in our survival/evolutionary process. This is still debatable. Sociopaths also do not all fall under the broad blanket you seem to be defining them with. Not all sociopaths are dangerous to others.

-continued-

And you're proud of it? Are you proud knowing that entire civilizations are killed off by people like you? Killed by "Might makes Right" obsessed people?

I'm proud of it? Wtf are you talking about? I am not a sociopath. I am not 'evil'. I am not 'people like you', and I am not a 'might makes right' obsessed person. I've never once used my opinions about our species to claim we can just throw moralism out the window and live like savages. Stop the rhetoric. It's just embarassing, and I have better things to do than have discussions with people who want to argue with personal insults.

And look what this social hierarchy got us into: the top of the pyramid having everything, and the lower classes like all of us having crumps of bread.

Social heirarchies are normal for social primates. Do the research. You can rail against it, deny it, throw fits all you want to, but whether we like it or not does not make it false.

I thought we agreed long ago that pyramidal hierarchy was a bad idea, and agreed on trying to make everyone equal.

lol - when did this happen? During the 60s?

We have animal DNA. But we act nothing like animals.

But we do. Social heirarchies. Social strife. Survival instincts. Acquisitions and protection of territory. Fighting over resources. Using/polluting resources without little to no regard to environmental impact. War. etc etc ETC

We are capable of complex thoughts

So are other social primates.

Yes, who wants to be like all those other souless animals that have roamed the world for billions of years now? Only we humans have these wonderful 'souls', huh? Such tripe.


Got something against that? If you admire so much the lifestyles and philosophy of animals, why don't you go spend a week in a wolf's pack? No food, squarce water, squarce shelter, not even sleep. And, you get bitten by nasty insects. This is the bite-swollen face of your future. Tell me how it goes and how you liked it.

lol - rhetoric and exaggeration again. We already are animals. Why should I go live with another species? lol - I get bitten all the time, because I am a survivalist and a nature lover and I spend a lot of time outdoors. You can learn a lot about humans by observing nature. Try it sometime.

Hitler too said that people, including Jews and Africans, were monkeys. Are you saying you're agreeing with Hitler and eugenism's philosophy?

Yeah, I agree with everything Hitler said, because I believe we are animals. lol just stop. I do agree in natural selection however, and survival of the fittest. Go ahead and twist that around to mean whatever you want, I guess.

So your role-model is not to evolve into a better person, but to become a dog?

Now I'm wondering why I'm even wasting time discussing anything with you. No, I don't believe in utopian societies. I came to the conclusion thru years of research studying subjects such as anthropology and human ecology. What have you studied, I wonder? Not much, I bet.

See, you get the idea! Even yourself can predict yourself as being immoral, selfish, hateful, and domineering.

I know. Because I don't believe in your flimsy views on moralism and how it pertains to human behavior I must be the worst humanity has to offer. I think I'm done discussing this with you. Carry on.

Originally posted by starheart
reply to post by jheherrin

 

They see themselves as 'good', and they mistakingly try to observe and view collective human behavior thru their own moral lense. Then you get arguments about how we should act as a collective, even though we don't act that way as a collective and (arguably) never have.

So you never heard about the Red Cross? You know, the guys and women who volonteers to help people throughout countries and wars, regardless of religions or politics, whose main goal is to heal and take care of people.
So you never heard about the Elite and Red Cross. And yet, you're the one telling me to Deny Ignorance....

I was discussing our collective historical behavior as a species. Deny ignorance, indeed.

reply to post by starheart

We Are Humans, Like It or Not

Speak for yourself Earthling......

Peeps are made to live in groups. We are social creatures and rely on each other to survive. We are much stronger when we act as a group as opposed to an individual.. All the wana be Rambos would not last long in a real survival situation....

Originally posted by purplemer
All the wana be Rambos would not last long in a real survival situation....

I think that was actually the OP's point... Not only wouldn't they last long, but they would be quite counterproductive.

reply to post by jheherrin


BTW I just wanted to point out to you a small contradiction. Here you say,

I don't believe in your flimsy views on moralism

But then you also say:

I've never once used my opinions about our species to claim we can just throw moralism out the window

Well pick a side, mate.

I do agree in natural selection however, and survival of the fittest. Go ahead and twist that around to mean whatever you want, I guess.

You do know that this "survival of the fittest" is what Eugenics is all about, right? No one is twisting things around, it's basic facts.

eugenics, the selection of desired heritable characteristics in order to improve future generations, typically in reference to humans. The term eugenics was coined in 1883 by the British explorer and natural scientist Francis Galton, who, influenced by Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection, advocated a system that would allow “the more suitable races or strains of blood a better chance of prevailing speedily over the less suitable.” Social Darwinism, the popular theory in the late 19th century that life for humans in society was ruled by “survival of the fittest,” helped advance eugenics into serious scientific study in the early ...

Source: www.britannica.com...

I must confess I am perplexed that you, a grandmaster of anthropology, wasn't even aware of that fact?...

reply to post by Gazrok

1) Approach with your hands up, palms open and facing forward.
2) Walk slowly along the designated path and stop at the designated spot.
3) Only one trader allowed in at a time.
4) Once escorts arrive, trader will be searched (well) and disarmed (any items to be returned to the trader upon departure) before entering the ranch.
5) All trades are final.
6) Trade only takes place during daylight hours. Any approaching at night will be shot.
7) Becoming a frequent trader has perks.
8) Dishonest trades may result in being banned from future trade.
9) Any groups must maintain distance and hold at designated markers or further.

We'd also post the common things we offer, and what we commonly seek for trade, etc.

That is an excellent plan! Well, at least until SHTF passes.
One suggestion, though, we should find something for the night visitors. Let's pretend that a starving guy just arrived in town during the night, and gets attacked by animals, and wants help from one of the communities. It wouldn't be fair if he gets shot....

Other than that part, it's a great plan, and everyone should know it. Why not make a thread? People should really know it, in order to be prepared if the SHTF finally happens.

reply to post by jheherrin

And as predicted, if you disagree with the 'higher' lifeform bunk, you become a 'bad' person, support negativity, even labeled a sociopath...etc. SMH

I never said that, I only pointed out the unethical applications that considering ourselves as animals brings. And I certainly never labeled you as a sociopath.... yet.

Right and wrong are not universal concepts. What an individual sees as 'right' or 'wrong' has its origins in our genetics and cultural influences, and beyond that can be shown to be subjective. Animals do indeed have their own sense of 'right' or 'wrong'. We are animals.

Um... yes, right and wrong are universal concepts. Everywhere, people know that taking a life (animal or human) for no reason is wrong; everywhere people knows that helping others is right. Animals don't have a big right/wrong sense. They do whatever profits them the most.

I never said or implied any such thing.

Yes you did. Here:

We're friggin humans, humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else. NOT people that kills, that don't care if only themselves survives at the expense of everyone else.

You have a very distorted, unrealistic view of human beings.

You replied to me, when I said that humans are supposed to help each other out, that it was a "very distorted, unrealistic view of human beings".

While I'd rather not see that done to human beings (killed off..etc), there is no question our resources are strained and populations should be better controlled.

Over-population and depletion of ressources propaganda was invented in 1700s by Malthus, who was also a supporter of Eugenics. Earth has all the ressources we need in abundance; the only reason why we don't have access to them, is because the Corporations wants to keep economical advantages.

The "same way we trimmed the deers"? You love rhetoric, huh?

Well, it's because it's true. It's none of the Elite's business of how much kids we can have or can't have.

Advanced in what way? That flimsy moral sense argument again? Beyond that, technology has not yet proven to have any long-term survival impact on our species.

So you mean that water desalinization technology serves no purpose in our species's need for water? That telecommunication that warns us about an incoming tsunami has no impact on our survival? That life-support technology in hospitals have no impact on the patient's survival?

If anything, science brought us out of the superstitious nonsense people believed for ages, that we were oh-so-special and higher than the other creatures on the planet because God said so.

God didn't said so. Scientists are the one still saying so. Our brain still amaze and puzzles scientists; their computer can simulate and duplicate an animal's brain, but still can't get around ours, because of it's sheer complexity. Technically, that makes us a higher life-form. Unless you want to argue with neurologists....

Oh, there's some new hypothesis banded about that might allow for the existence of a soul, but ideas are not evidence.

What about the fact that when a patient's brain is shut down during a coma, he still registers complex sensory inputs, like images, sensations, etc? All of the brain is shut down including the part responsible for vision and hearing, yet, the patient experiences all of these. The only possible explanation is that something survives clinical brain death.

Oh, so now you don't believe in morality or ethics?

How on earth did you get that out of what I stated??

Here:

I don't believe in your flimsy views on moralism

Studies have also shown that sociopaths have been around for a long time and might actually serve a purpose in our survival/evolutionary process.

And studies said that Africans were less intelligent than Japanese. And another study said that people with non-blue eyes were more prone to mental illness. Studies can come up with anything.

I'm proud of it? Wtf are you talking about?

When I said that humans are not predators, you told me this:

We most certainly are apex predators. The proof is everywhere, throughout our history, and shows your statement to be completely false. We even had a hand in killing off our competition, the neanderthals.

You constantly deflect my "moralism" by pointing out how we are savage under extreme survival circumstances. You don't seem to realize that I'm trying to tell people NOT to be the same savages as some people once were, and you always come back supporting savagery. So either you're proud of it, or you just like to obssess with the fact we can never be good because some people were once savage under extreme circumstances.

I've never once used my opinions about our species to claim we can just throw moralism out the window and live like savages.

Hmm... lets see. You deny that we have morality, you deny the fact that we ARE more complex and advanced than animals, you agree with the propaganda that we're nothng but animal and thus must accept being "trimmed" anytime the Elite wants, you don't even know that some technology actually helps us survives, you stick with the past acts of humanity instead of looking toward a better future... oh yes, you hate the idea of an utopian society... You pretty much imply that you throw morality out of the window and wish to live as an animal. Remember, you said countless times: "We are only animals". That includes you, you know.

lol - when did this happen? During the 60s?

You're "only" off of (minimum).... 200 years. Egalitarianism exists since more than 200 years, and has been even hinted in the oldest religions which means thousands of years ago.

But we do. Social heirarchies. Social strife. Survival instincts. Acquisitions and protection of territory. Fighting over resources. Using/polluting resources without little to no regard to environmental impact. War. etc etc ETC

Social hierarchies are more and more despised by the people for the unfairness that a pyramidal structure brings to the lower levels. Social strife is created by the injustice of the pyramidal hierarchies. Survival instincts? Duh. Even aliens would have survival instincts. Acquisitions and protection of territory. Where you think mankind should live? In an alternative dimension, floating in the air? Fighting over ressources. That we wouldn't have to do if the Corporations would stop keeping them away from us.
Using polluting ressources without no regard to the environment. We already banned the CFC, the DTT; higher society installed waste management, recycling, solar cooker to both replace coal mines and desalinitize sea-water without any impact. Do you keep up at all with modern events? War... Now blaming the whole humanity of being animalistic just because of the actions of a few of warmongers generals is a bit rich.

We are capable of complex thoughts

So are other social primates.

When was the last time you heard a chimpanzee talk about the expansion of the Universe??
In what fantasy world are you living?

You can learn a lot about humans by observing nature. Try it sometime.

I too live outdoors most of the time. And normal humans are nothing like nature.

I do agree in natural selection however, and survival of the fittest. Go ahead and twist that around to mean whatever you want, I guess.

So did Hitler. In fact, he based his entire actions upon it. What people don't realize is how come this famous "natural selection" chooses only a specific Elite as the "fittest".

No, I don't believe in utopian societies. I came to the conclusion thru years of research studying subjects such as anthropology and human ecology.

Real reassuring. So a non-believer in a better future for humanity, even though that is exactly the definition for evolution. And you claim you're not opposing evolution. Well evolve means stopping looking backward and starting looking foward.