Sometimes I wonder about the Trinitarian view.

reply to post by Akragon


If they changed his identity, what makes you think they didn't change his family tree? You take what the OT says as fact yet don't believe it? If you don't believe it, why do you take it literally?

God didn't destroy those cities, an army did. The editors attributed the army's conquest to god in order to make people fear god (them).

You seem so sure that Moses is the one who wrote all of those rules and regulations. Do you believe that the Torah wasn't edited in any way?

reply to post by Akragon

That's a whole lot of editing... I don't see the point honestly

Akragon,

Do you think that the Torah had not been corrupted by the time of Jesus? Do you dismiss the claims of the Essenes that the temple priests had corrupted the law?

The Essenes didn't practice animal sacrifice, believing it to be a corruption, and also rejected murder as punishment. (Although they did exile folks, they let nature do the deed.)

I don't know, I guess I think that the victors write history, and these guys had such egos that they were so bold as to claimed they had "THE GOD" on their side, and used that to scare and intimidate their enemies and keep their conquests in check.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Akragon

 

That's a whole lot of editing... I don't see the point honestly

Akragon,

Do you think that the Torah had not been corrupted by the time of Jesus? Do you dismiss the claims of the Essenes that the temple priests had corrupted the law?

The Essenes didn't practice animal sacrifice, believing it to be a corruption, and also rejected murder as punishment. (Although they did exile folks, they let nature do the deed.)

I don't know, I guess I think that the victors write history, and these guys had such egos that they were so bold as to claimed they had "THE GOD" on their side, and used that to scare and intimidate their enemies and keep their conquests in check.

Very possible... the winners write history right?

These are just a few of the reasons why I reject the OT... its useless information... but a great story

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

 

If they changed his identity, what makes you think they didn't change his family tree? You take what the OT says as fact yet don't believe it? If you don't believe it, why do you take it literally?

God didn't destroy those cities, an army did. The editors attributed the army's conquest to god in order to make people fear god (them).

You seem so sure that Moses is the one who wrote all of those rules and regulations. Do you believe that the Torah wasn't edited in any way?

edit on 30-4-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I don't necessarily believe the OT to be fact... We were dealing with the trinity originally when I said "we need to assume what is written is what happened, but we kinda got side tracked...

I believe its very possible the Torah and the rest of the OT was edited... on the other hand I also believe the OT is describing a completely different God then the one Jesus spoke about...

So much complication.... isn't just easier to rely on what was given by Jesus?

reply to post by Akragon

To be a pharaoh Moses would have had to have been pure Egyptian blood... from a bloodline of a pharaoh He wasn't even half...

You're taking the Old Testament literally? Moses is, for all intents and purposes, a mythical character with mythical origins. There is no historical evidence of the Exodus really occurring. He very well could be a composite of mythical characters, Hermes, Thoth, etc., of the time that the Hebrews adopted into their own myth.

Honestly, after a small amount of time studying the Torah, (30 years) in my opinion, no ordinary man could have come up with it. It's my belief that it's a remnant from a past advanced civilization or a gift from another race. It has nothing to do with war, conquest or murdering non believers. It's more of a map.

reply to post by Akragon


Of course it's explaining a different god than Jesus', it was edited to insert the tyrant Yahweh in the place of the god Moses truly taught about, Aten/Jesus' Father (yes, I believe they are the same entity, consciousness).

Just as the Pharisees (Paul) twisted Jesus' message, the editors of the Torah (possibly the Egyptians who indoctrinated Tutankhamun, Akhenaten's son) twisted Moses' message. Akhenaten (Moses) straying from the mainstream religion of the time is told within Exodus, except with heavy editing.

The original tablets are the true commandments (Jesus' two). Moses breaking them was really the editor's breaking them and inserting their own version.

There is always a kernel of truth within a lie. They couldn't have erased all of the truth, otherwise their wouldn't be anything to support the lies.

reply to post by windword


Dear winofiend,

So what you saying, basically, is "If God wants to use sperm and male body parts he can, but why should he, when he can just use magic?" Further, you're pointing out that science can do these things, and asking "Why couldn't God?"

You did not bother answering any of my questions, why should I answer yours, to convince you. I feel no need to convince you of anything. ATS is a place for conversation, answer my questions before asking me new ones.

reply to post by windword


I believe there is historical evidence supporting Exodus. Akhenaten's "Exodus" from the mainstream religion of the time is that story in my opinion. Akhenaten was completely erased from history for over 2,000 years, I think that coincides with the mythical Moses being created.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I saw a documentary that suggested the same thing several years ago, on the History Channel, I think. It's a compelling theory.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I don't give cookies...only stars and slaps

You can have a star

We don't have to agree... the fact is, once I get there... IF im told the trinity is the truth... what am I going to say?

Nope I don't believe it?

edit on 30-4-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Dear Akragon,

You do know you are my favorite person on this site. You cheat with your answer, you answer a question I asked of people who believe in pre-tribulation rapture. LOL. If you ever come to Vegas or California, you better let me know so that I can buy you a cup of coffee or a drink. As for the trinity, what does it matter who is correct when it is not the unforgivable sin to not know? I would happily be a janitor in heaven, I don't need to get it all right and neither does anyone else. The question is which part we do have to get right.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


The issue with Aten is that it is basically the sun God... which is still worship of a physical "creation"...

Egyptian Theology revolves around the worship of Idols... the sun, and various depictions of Gods created by mans hands...

Now I won't deny that sun worship made its way into Christianity... but that isn't anything Jesus taught...

which also returns to my previous quote... "all that came before me were thieves and robbers"

reply to post by windword

Do you dismiss the claims of the Essenes . . .

The Essenes do not make any claims that I am aware of.
You may be thinking of the Zadokites.
The Essenes are basically an invention of Josephus, and were supposedly also known as the Therapeutae.
As far as we know, they did not have any writings that have survived.
There were some people connected with the community of Qumran, who supposedly were the source of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the scholars that I read don't make the leap of faith that some do, to say they were the same people.

reply to post by AQuestion


My thanks brother... I didn't cheat!

IF I ever make it do vegas i'll have my phone on me... i'll be sure to look you up... We'll go for a beer... or three

The question is which part we do have to get right.

Love of course...

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by windword

 

Dear winofiend,

So what you saying, basically, is "If God wants to use sperm and male body parts he can, but why should he, when he can just use magic?" Further, you're pointing out that science can do these things, and asking "Why couldn't God?"

You did not bother answering any of my questions, why should I answer yours, to convince you. I feel no need to convince you of anything. ATS is a place for conversation, answer my questions before asking me new ones.

I've reread your post, and I can't see a question that I haven't answered or addressed. Perhaps you can restate it, or quote it for me? Also, I've reread my post, and I can't see where I have left you a question to illicit your refusal....

reply to post by Akragon


Aten was not the sun, Akhenaten enforced that fact heavily. The reason the sun was depicted is because it gives off light, which gives us our image (of god). You may want to study Atenism to get a clearer picture on who/what Aten was because it's not what you think.

Yes, traditional Egyptian religion was centered around idols, which is exactly why Akhenaten broke away from it. Like I said, you may want to look into it a bit more, or not.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Akhenaten's "Exodus" from the mainstream religion of the time is that story in my opinion.

Akhenaten supposedly made a literal exodus, going off into the desert.
That would be more like folklore, to explain his disappearance when people would find the more mundane explanation that he was murdered, unacceptable.
There was a similar myth about Nero not being murdered but going into exile in Parthia to gather an army to invade the empire in order to "take it back" and reclaim his throne.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Pretty much everything I've read on Aten is the same... worship of the actual sun...

Akhenaten proclaimed "the Aten" (the visible sun itself) to be the sole deity, taking sun worship a stage further. Because of the naturalistic qualities of some of the art works of the time, some have suggested that his religion was based on the scientific observation that the sun's energy is the ultimate source of all life.

ancientegyptonline.co.uk...

What are you reading?

Snap a link up here... better yet, start a thread on the subject and lets take it there... this thread is just off the rails..

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by AQuestion

 

My thanks brother... I didn't cheat!

IF I ever make it do vegas i'll have my phone on me... i'll be sure to look you up... We'll go for a beer... or three

The question is which part we do have to get right.

Dear Akragon,

Hugs dear man. LOL. Yep, we got to get the love part right. Here is what I believe Jesus would say. If you could understand every question about the bible and about God; but, had no love in your heart for others or you could have love in your heart for others and understand just about all of the bible wrong, which would God appreciate more? I am a fundamentalist; but, the fundamentalists hate me because I ask fundamental questions. Love is a choice, it is the only choice. Which do we choose, who to love or who not to love? A nice song for you, dear friend.

YouTube - Sly and the Family Stone - Everybody is a Star

Just like you said, everybody matters, everybody is a star.


Love of course...

edit on 30-4-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Akragon

The radicalisation of Year 9 (including spelling Aten phonetically instead of using the rayed solar disc) may be due to a determination on the part of Akhenaten to dispel a probable misconception among the common people that Aten was really a type of sun god like Ra. Instead, the idea was reinforced that such representations were representations above all of concepts—of Aten's universal presence—not of physical beings or things.

www.wikipedia.org...

Aten was not a physical object as in the sun, which is why they stopped depicting Aten as the sun disc.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

 

The radicalisation of Year 9 (including spelling Aten phonetically instead of using the rayed solar disc) may be due to a determination on the part of Akhenaten to dispel a probable misconception among the common people that Aten was really a type of sun god like Ra. Instead, the idea was reinforced that such representations were representations above all of concepts—of Aten's universal presence—not of physical beings or things.

www.wikipedia.org...

Aten was not a physical object as in the sun.

edit on 30-4-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

When did Wikipedia become the book O knowledge?

Look... from that article

Although idols were banned—even in people's homes—these were typically replaced by functionally equivalent representations of Akhenaten and his family venerating the Aten, and receiving the ankh (breath of life) from him.

Meaning it was still idol worship... just a different idol, straying from the traditional idols of Egypt...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

Do you dismiss the claims of the Essenes . . .

The Essenes do not make any claims that I am aware of.
You may be thinking of the Zadokites.
The Essenes are basically an invention of Josephus, and were supposedly also known as the Therapeutae.
As far as we know, they did not have any writings that have survived.
There were some people connected with the community of Qumran, who supposedly were the source of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the scholars that I read don't make the leap of faith that some do, to say they were the same people.

The Essenes were more than an invention of Josephus!

Ancient writers such as Josephus, Philo, Pliny, Dio Chrysostom and Hippolytus of Rome spoke of the Essenes. Josephus speaks mainly of the Ossaeans of Qumran, while Philo speaks of the Theraputae who were a branch of the Nasaraean Essenes.

First hand reports concerning the Essenes comes to us from the Jewish philosopher of the Egyptian dispersion, Philo of Alexandria, who lived between 30 B.C. and 40 A.D. Philo's writings about the Essenes comes down to us through two works, 'Quod omnis probus Fiber sit' and 'Apologia pro Judais.' The second work has been lost but the information was retained in Eusebius' 'Praeparatio Evangilica.'

Another writer contemporary with the Essenes was Flavius Josephus, the famous Jewish historian and priest-general at the time of the Jewish war. His most elaborate description of this group is contained in 'The Jewish War', followed by an interesting, but far less detailed account in 'Jewish Antiquities.' Josephus wrote his first work sometime between 70 and 75 A.D., and the second somewhat later, but before 100 A.D., the year of his death.

Another first-hand report concerning the Essenes comes from the Roman writer, Pliny the Elder, who, in his work entitled 'Natural History,' incorporated information about the sect , Pliny died in 79 A.D.

A Greek orator and philosopher, Dio Chrysostom, also mentioned in passing the existence of an Essene community near the Dead Sea. His report is dated somewhat later than Pliny.

Writing two centuries later, Hippolytus of Rome detailed a long account of the Essenes that, for the most part, is said to have paralleled Josephus' information, but in a few instances provided unique material, though he was not an eyewitness of this sect.

There is, recorded in both Josephus and in the Talmud, the story of one Onias the Righteous, a man who was stoned to death in about 65 B.C. who was particularly saintly and who is believed to have been able to bring rain through his prayers. He is, according to Millar Burrows, thought to have been an Essene.
essene.com...

Well there was some sect that left writing about "The Teacher of Righteousness" and the "Wicked Priest."

The Dead Sea Scrolls frequently refer to a mysterious figure called the “Teacher of Righteousness” (Moreh ha-Tsedek in Hebrew). According to the most widely held view, the Teacher of Righteousness founded the Dead Sea Scroll sect (the sect is usually identified with the Essenes). In this common view, the Teacher of Righteousness organized the Community (the Yahad) and composed many of its most important works. The nemesis of the Teacher of Righteousness is another shadowy figure called the Wicked Priest
www.bib-arch.org...

third faction, the Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the other two. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. They moved out of Jerusalem and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy. The Essenes are particularly interesting to scholars because they are believed to be an offshoot of the group that lived in Qumran, near the Dead Sea. In 1947, a Bedouin shepherd stumbled into a cave containing various ancient artifacts and jars containing manuscripts describing the beliefs of the sect and events of the time.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...