The Illegal Alien Thread

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Darkrunner

 

Those walls and gun towers....they would eventually be used to keep you in, not keep "them" out.

History repeats itself.

Aww...the secret is out.

The coming economic collapse will cause a mass exodus. Need to have a way to prevent the workers from fleeing the land, shirking their responsibility to pay the taxes, and give up their labor the new masters to whom all that debt is owed. The terrorists and the illegals are all misdirection. In a secret deal, China agreed to continue to lend the US capital to keep going a few more years, provided the US could guarantee that they would in fact be able to pay back the loans. The only way to guarantee the US can pay back, is if they ensure the population stays put, and don't flee. Afet all, the real wealth is in the people, not the land. But, the people must never know that the fences are there to keep them in. They would never let the fences be built in the first place. So, you must concince the people that the fences are for their protection, to keep all those terrorists and illegals out. That way, everybody happily gives up their right to flee, when the time comes. The plan is so obvious, you'd have to be unconscious not to see it.

reply to post by Night Star


There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have. Go to their employers and tell them you are willing to do the exact same job, for 25% less salary than the illegals. AND - as an added perk, you speak English. Voila - you'll get the job. Guaranteed. Cuz that's how the illegals got the jobs -- they were willing to do it for less. Outsmart them at their own game, and you win the jobs. Now I'd like to know why all these unemployed Americans haven't done this.

Originally posted by Darkrunner

As a teenager, not coming from a well off family, if I wanted the latest, hip, pair of shoes I had to pay for them myself. I washed dishes, delivered papers and picked Strawberries at a local berry farm. And I wasn't the only high school student at these jobs.

I bought my first piece of crap 1972 Pontiac Ventura for $300 with this money, that eventually started on fire because the fuel line to the carb was leaking fuel all over the engine block.

So I don't want to hear this crap about how nobody but Illegals wash dishes or pick berries. There are plenty of teens out there that, if they want something, they will work for it.

Well...being 58 myself I see a huge difference in generations. The current generation of young feel more "entitled" to luxuries you and I would work for. Did you automatically EXPECT your parents to buy your first car for you? Perhaps your 2nd one as well? Kids these days feel severely wronged when their parents make them work for the things they want.

Place an ad for hard work, physical labor and then see how many non-latino teens and 20s actually apply for the job. My first real job (during my college years, summer work) involved the kind of work that could only be compared to a tough football workout in high school that lasted for 8 hours.

These days college kids would not be found dead doing that kind of work.

For clarity: I do not, in any form, manner or thought condone illegal immigration. Unfortunately if there is a market for something, it will be supplied.

I would support granting the illegals in country right now citizenship (provided they went through the steps to earn it) as long as we secured the border. I do not, however, condone amnesty while leaving the border open as it currently is.

There are so many perspectives to look at with the illegal/undocumented immigration issue that it really does seem like an exercise in futility. Every possible scenario and solution only raises a whole new set of questions and issues.I could sit here and type my perspective and suggestions but does it really matter? Those that are pro-amnesty will more than likely remain that way, and those in opposition will remain so too. I enjoy reading ATS for the vast amount of information available, but to debate endlessly makes no sense to me.

What really intrigues me, though, is how the push by the government for higher education in a much larger selection of the general population happens to coincide with the mass influx of predominantly Latino immigrants. Combine this with the fact that many positions once filled by convicted felons are no longer available to those convicted felons due to insurance reasons, one has to wonder if it is all just a coincidence.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Night Star

 

There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have. Go to their employers and tell them you are willing to do the exact same job, for 25% less salary than the illegals. AND - as an added perk, you speak English. Voila - you'll get the job. Guaranteed. Cuz that's how the illegals got the jobs -- they were willing to do it for less. Outsmart them at their own game, and you win the jobs. Now I'd like to know why all these unemployed Americans haven't done this.

It's illegal! Americans are official citizens who must declare income and if this income is showing that they are being paid less than minimum wage then it will be on paper, therefore I doubt that employers would take the risk when they have illegals who are not declaring income.

Also, employers know that American workers want at least the legal-minimum-paying wage and will not be happy being ripped off, whereas illegals will expect this as they are not entitled to be working there in the first place. No doubt desperate American workers, especially those struggling to raise a family, might try this, but for these reasons I doubt that it would go over well (not until or unless America became truly Fascist.)

Originally posted by LoneCloudHopper2

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Night Star

 

There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have. Go to their employers and tell them you are willing to do the exact same job, for 25% less salary than the illegals. AND - as an added perk, you speak English. Voila - you'll get the job. Guaranteed. Cuz that's how the illegals got the jobs -- they were willing to do it for less. Outsmart them at their own game, and you win the jobs. Now I'd like to know why all these unemployed Americans haven't done this.

It's illegal! Americans are official citizens who must declare income and if this income is showing that they are being paid less than minimum wage then it will be on paper, therefore I doubt that employers would take the risk when they have illegals who are not declaring income.

Also, employers know that American workers want at least the legal-minimum-paying wage and will not be happy being ripped off, whereas illegals will expect this as they are not entitled to be working there in the first place. No doubt desperate American workers, especially those struggling to raise a family, might try this, but for these reasons I doubt that it would go over well (not until or unless America became truly Fascist.)

edit on 28-4-2013 by LoneCloudHopper2 because: (no reason given)

Excuse me, but those are BS reasons. If employers don't mind breaking the law by hiring illegals, why would they mind hiring Americans for less than minimum wage and not reporting it?

Your second point is actually the point I was making all along. Americans are spoiled lazy brats who demand a certain standard of living. The immigrants will do WHATEVER it takes to survive.

Originally posted by LoneCloudHopper2

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Night Star

 

There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have....:

It's illegal! Americans are official citizens who must declare income and if this income is showing that they are being paid less than minimum wage then it will be on paper, therefore I doubt that employers would take the risk when they have illegals who are not declaring income.

The undocumented also must declare income to the IRS. The IRS doesn't care about Immigration status. If you earn here, you file here, and pay taxes here.

Being undocumented doesn't let anybody off the hook.

The undocumented cannot vote, or run for president (maybe), but apart from a few details like this, they have to comply with all the laws of the land, just like citizens and others who carry some papers saying they have right to be here.

The only thing the undocumented lack is the right to go back and forth across the border, through the standard checkpoints, without harassment. But, otherwise they have to pay just like everybody else, for everything: rent, food, transportation, entertainment, medical care, and yes, even taxes.

IRS doesn't care how you got here. If you've been here for moire that six months, automatically, you're a resident for tax purposes. Since the IRS deems you resident, by law, you're a legal resident, for tax purposes.

INS may have a different view. But, that's a different branch of the government.

So, one branch of government considers the undocumented legal residents--for filing and collecting tax--and another branch of government considers the undocumented illegal residents--for the purpose of voting, etc..

Which branch of the government is right?

Originally posted by azdaze
There are so many perspectives to look at with the illegal/undocumented immigration issue that it really does seem like an exercise in futility. Every possible scenario and solution only raises a whole new set of questions and issues.I could sit here and type my perspective and suggestions but does it really matter? Those that are pro-amnesty will more than likely remain that way, and those in opposition will remain so too. I enjoy reading ATS for the vast amount of information available, but to debate endlessly makes no sense to me.

I respect your opinion but I must disagree (as ironic as that may be.) I do not see this as a complex subject. I have known a number of intelligent Americans online to describe the subject as "complex" and I still fail to see why. In my view, it is largely considered "complex" because there is a push by the mainstream media (working in favor of the corporate elite) to brand those against illegal immigration as racist. The judgment goes as follows:

Against illegal immigration = against all immigration = racist.

That is quite a leap. But largely people are afraid to speak against it, even if they see it as a huge problem, for this reason. As for varying perspectives, there will be varying perspectives on literally every topic one can imagine. There was a discussion on ATS recently where people actually discussed whether or not a cult sacrificing a child (believing it to be the anti-Christ) was a good thing or not! You name it, even child sacrifice, and there will be opposing views. As this subject encompasses so many people, organizations, political standings, religious perspectives and business interests, of course it is going to pull a lot more people into the subject than normal and thus we will see a lot more opinions than normal. The situation and understanding the right or wrong of it however is not complicated at all.

The background: the corporate elite want more for themselves and less for everyone else. Globalization is allowing for a centralization of wealth and power into the hands of the few, taking jobs to foreign countries for slave wages and bringing in cheap products more cheaply. Our national leaders have signed us onto an agreement in secret (the Investor Trade Dispute (as part of the Trans Pacific Partnership,) which allows for foreign corporations to bypass our national laws by appealing national court decisions (even at the Supreme Court level) to an international tribunal which sides in favor of the corporations 90% of the time. This all ready exists for us in the NAFTA agreement (between Canada and the United States.) Corporations are literally rising above our national laws and are receiving legal protection (as they are treated as "persons" with the rights of a person, but few of the responsibilities.)

The situation: the corporate elite want employers working in the United States to work harder for less, no matter what their financial situations or health problems. They don't care. So, they start hiring illegal immigrants, paying them less and working them harder. These are mostly Mexicans, as they don't have that far to travel, and as their money is worth less they will gain significantly by taking American jobs. The corporate elite control the mainstream media and use it as propaganda to convince the people that being anti-illegal is wrong (as I explained above.) Lobbyists talk (money sure does talk) to corrupt politicians and get them on board (and few would say no anyway (the last president who stood against them was assassinated two weeks after making a public speech about this "monolithic" power network.) Hence, the story for the American people is: these illegal immigrants are poor refugees and not criminals who are stealing people's ID's and just taking advantage of the situation. Anyone who says otherwise is to be branded racist.

Right from wrong: as if it isn't self-apparent by the facts as I've laid them out, it is wrong to break into someone else's country, to take their jobs because their money is worth more, even though many of their citizens are struggling to find work and tent cities are popping up. It is also wrong to insist on speaking your own language and to ask for people in that country to learn to speak your language. It is wrong to pay for their children's ID's to use for your own interests. It is wrong, period, to break into someone else's country and to break their laws. It is also wrong to protect this criminality, to endorse it or to defend it, because it is wrong.


I do not mean any offense to you or to anyone else in saying this. I am merely pointing out the obvious, and the important facts of the situation. Once you get it, you see that it is not “complex” at all.

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by LoneCloudHopper2

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Night Star

 

There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have. Go to their employers and tell them you are willing to do the exact same job, for 25% less salary than the illegals. AND - as an added perk, you speak English. Voila - you'll get the job. Guaranteed. Cuz that's how the illegals got the jobs -- they were willing to do it for less. Outsmart them at their own game, and you win the jobs. Now I'd like to know why all these unemployed Americans haven't done this.

It's illegal! Americans are official citizens who must declare income and if this income is showing that they are being paid less than minimum wage then it will be on paper, therefore I doubt that employers would take the risk when they have illegals who are not declaring income.

Also, employers know that American workers want at least the legal-minimum-paying wage and will not be happy being ripped off, whereas illegals will expect this as they are not entitled to be working there in the first place. No doubt desperate American workers, especially those struggling to raise a family, might try this, but for these reasons I doubt that it would go over well (not until or unless America became truly Fascist.)

edit on 28-4-2013 by LoneCloudHopper2 because: (no reason given)

Excuse me, but those are BS reasons. If employers don't mind breaking the law by hiring illegals, why would they mind hiring Americans for less than minimum wage and not reporting it?

Your second point is actually the point I was making all along. Americans are spoiled lazy brats who demand a certain standard of living. The immigrants will do WHATEVER it takes to survive.

The ultimate goal is indeed to work Americans harder for less but they must take baby steps and doing this. Even with illegal immigration, many police departments and different States have fought hard against it despite the government's stance. They are upsetting millions of American workers. They are treading a fine line in different respects.

Originally posted by SQUEALER

Originally posted by LoneCloudHopper2

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Night Star

 

There is an obvious solution to getting the jobs that the illegals currently have....:

It's illegal! Americans are official citizens who must declare income and if this income is showing that they are being paid less than minimum wage then it will be on paper, therefore I doubt that employers would take the risk when they have illegals who are not declaring income.

The undocumented also must declare income to the IRS. The IRS doesn't care about Immigration status. If you earn here, you file here, and pay taxes here.

Being undocumented doesn't let anybody off the hook.

The undocumented cannot vote, or run for president (maybe), but apart from a few details like this, they have to comply with all the laws of the land, just like citizens and others who carry some papers saying they have right to be here.

The only thing the undocumented lack is the right to go back and forth across the border, through the standard checkpoints, without harassment. But, otherwise they have to pay just like everybody else, for everything: rent, food, transportation, entertainment, medical care, and yes, even taxes.

IRS doesn't care how you got here. If you've been here for moire that six months, automatically, you're a resident for tax purposes. Since the IRS deems you resident, by law, you're a legal resident, for tax purposes.

INS may have a different view. But, that's a different branch of the government.

So, one branch of government considers the undocumented legal residents--for filing and collecting tax--and another branch of government considers the undocumented illegal residents--for the purpose of voting, etc..

Which branch of the government is right?

That is cute that you are using the politically correct term "undocumented," but many of them are documented now. Besides which, they are commonly known as illegal immigrants, in Canada and around the world. I believe in calling it like it is. Otherwise it's like calling mafioso "undocumented businessmen."

With a stolen SSN I suppose they can pay income tax and probably would if they stood to gain by it.

Originally posted by SQUEALER


The undocumented cannot vote,

Sure they can...do you have to show ID to vote?

They cannot legally vote, but hey...why let that stop the vote?

Why do you think Democrats are all ok with undocumented aliens?

Wait....are we talking space aliens or the regular kind?

Originally posted by LoneCloudHopper2

Against illegal immigration = against all immigration = racist.

LoneCloudHopper, I am witcha here.

This is wrong and an insult to most people's intelligence. It is the race card being played itself that is racist in nature and intent.

Just because I disagree with Obama does not make me racist, as many would portray me. I am totally in disagreement with his economic policies as well as foreign policy no mater his color, religion or planet of origin.

Just because I am against illegal immigration does not make me a racist and the implication is ignorant and racist itself in nature and intent. Does the word illegal mean so little? Do we not have a process that allows for LEGAL immigration? Has ANYONE stated a position against legal immigration? NO>>>IT'S the ILLEGAL PART...

I am actually for amnesty (might as well), provided the border is properly guarded and reinforced sufficiently to stop the influx of illegals as well as drugs, human trafficking and other illegal activities associated with border activity.

Until the border is secured there is no point in amnesty since it provides a very negative type of incentive which would increase the problems we already have.

Saying someone is racist for half the reasons given these days is a racist statement in and of itself.

Originally posted by SQUEALER

Being undocumented doesn't let anybody off the hook.

Wrongo...at least in effect, which is what counts, right?

Many small businesses hire people as "contract" labor. There is no withholding involved and the income isnt reported till the end of the year at which point the contractee is responsible for paying taxes owed according to income.

Do you have any idea how many income tax forms are returned because the individuals who worked a few months have moved? Many illegals do not live in the same place year after year...since they move and are undocumented, how would you (IRS) follow them to prosecute?

Ergo, an illegal who moves periodically, works as contract labor and changes jobs periodically will not report income and will not pay taxes. Period.

Go on flame me:

Kick them all out America doesn't need people who think they are above the law, we already have too many of those.

People are making an assumption they even want legal citizen status.

Why they already get all the perks now.

Immigration is nothing, but about voting.