What if you woke up tomorrow and government was gone?

reply to post by Glassbender777

I dont know if I would notice anything, you talk about factions that would rise and grow, to conquer. Im pretty sure thats what we live in now. depending on who is president and the ruling party, sorta depends on which faction will rule government for 4 years, until another battle won only with propaganda starts up again.

Your comparison is accurate, so what makes anyone think the desire to control others will die with government? We got to the position we’re in today by TRYING libertarianism and we let it spin out of control, didn’t we? A group rose to power at our request (the federal government) and began taking away our liberty against our wishes. If the fed was gone tomorrow another group would take its place. Things would get bad again in this country (wars...civil unrest...more crime) and we'd practically be begging for it!

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
I'd also worry about money, to be perfectly honest.

With the government gone, there is nothing stopping big banks from hiring a private army to seize our deposits. Do you really believe they would let us in to remove our stuff from our safety deposit boxes? This would start a cascade down to the smaller community banks and credit unions. Local businesses would have no way to pay their employees. Those employees would no longer have any incentive to go to work. The utilities would be up for grabs. Few people will work for nothing, especially when they need to be home, protecting their family from marauding gangs of hungry desperate "others."

It would be a mess, and it would unmake our world and everything in it.

Money?

There would no longer be any money. Without the government backing the money...it would cease to exist. Banks would be an obsolete business...everything would go back to barter.

After the initial looting of the stores and the shelves bare, there would be nothing left. Companies would close down overnight because they are all built on credit and banking and the fact that the government alone guarantees the value of the dollar.

It is amazing what some people are concerned about in this thread or what their plans would be, like the one person who is calming going to go out and buy supplies...I don't think people quite understand how involved government is with our lives and the continuation of our society.

reply to post by LogicGrind


I was drawing the comparison to prove exactly that point.

You don't like paying taxes so that 47% have foodstamps? How many of us realize our jobs would disappear if the economy suddenly "lost" the value of those purchases? Do our jobs pay us more than what we pay in taxes for foodstamps and other social programs? Do we think our jobs would still exist if that money was no longer in circulation at the buy-floor of the local economy?

It's questions like these that are seldom asked or answered when folks rant about social programs. They don't realize how dependent we all are on the "government" or how dependent we all are on each others social welfare and well being. Unraveling that dependency makes for fine theorycraft but I have never seen a single "solution" that doesn't unmake civilization and or directly lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people (including many libertarians with good jobs).

reply to post by LogicGrind

Money?

There would no longer be any money. Without the government backing the money...it would cease to exist. Banks would be an obsolete business...everything would go back to barter.

And the banks “ceasing to exist” would be a bad thing??

After the initial looting of the stores and the shelves bare, there would be nothing left. Companies would close down overnight because they are all built on credit and banking and the fact that the government alone guarantees the value of the dollar.

The government prints and spends more money than we take in. Maybe we need a grand reset.

It is a very complicated situation but unless you think things are swell now then we need to figure out how we achieve both freedom and security (including financial security) because right now we have neither!

It is amazing what some people are concerned about in this thread or what their plans would be, like the one person who is calming going to go out and buy supplies...I don't think people quite understand how involved government is with our lives and the continuation of our society.

I think the free market will take care of itself. If there is a demand there will be people ready to provide, regardless what means of currency is used. The federal government isn't the answer to our problems; often it is the cause.

reply to post by seabag


Profound question. I think that it would quickly usher in the new dark ages. People would do things freely they have only refrained from because of a system of checks and balances imposed by the current gov albeit our broken and dying system.

reply to post by seabag


I'm watching the video now, but my thoguhts right off the bat are that this person confuses Libertarian with Anarchy.

I am not aware of a Libertarian platform that suggest we shut down all Government. I am not aware of a Libertarian platform that suggest we abolish the Police force in whole.

So right off the bat- the whole premise of the video is, well... wrong.

reply to post by FortAnthem

I love it!

It shows how people, given the chance to live freely, will eventually form governments again and end up enslaved just the same way as they were before in order to win some peace and security.

Living under some type of government is necessary for all people in order to ensure some measure of peace and justice. Its just a matter of how much of your freedom you're willing to give up to ensure that peaceful existence.

Sorry I missed your post, FortAnthem. The thread moved quickly and I passed it by.


*on topic*

EXACTLY! We got into this current position after proclaiming our freedom from the very form (well…similar form) of government we fought against!! We didn’t heed Benjamin Franklin’s warning about sacrificing freedom for security and we ended up with very little of both!

We, as a nation, can’t agree on how much to give up. All the Ron Paul supporters (mostly Libertarians) scream the loudest but it’s exactly their principles which led us to this position. Frankly, it would have happened no matter what system we began with because it’s our nature as humans…we can’t “live and let live” without having nanny dictate our lives! All forms of government end up taking over!!!

What the hell do we do now??

reply to post by MrWendal

I'm watching the video now, but my thoguhts right off the bat are that this person confuses Libertarian with Anarchy.

I am not aware of a Libertarian platform that suggest we shut down all Government. I am not aware of a Libertarian platform that suggest we abolish the Police force in whole.

So right off the bat- the whole premise of the video is, well... wrong.

Maybe so, but try and juxtapose what he proposed with this:

“Libertarians believe in individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom from government – on all issues at all times… A libertarian is someone who thinks you should be free to live your life as you want to live it, not as [the President of the United States] thinks you should – who believes you should raise your children by your values, not those of some far-off bureaucrat who’s using your child as a pawn to create some brave new world – who thinks that, because you’re the one who gets up every day and goes to work, you should be free to keep every dollar you earn, to spend it, save it, give it away as you think best.”– Harry Browne (1933-2006),1996 and 2000 Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate and author of Liberty A-Z: 872 Libertarian Soundbites You Can Use Right Now!

“Individual freedom, under a system of universally understood and accepted rules, such as appear in the U.S. Constitution, or the Ten Commandments. The system assumes the principle of Undesigned Order, under which people--sovereign individuals--interact and thereby produce and live as best they can. No other system could ever be as productive -- by magnitudes of generated real income. Nor could any other system be as satisfying to the individual. The proof of this pudding is the USA -- what it was, not what it is becoming.” – Richard Timberlake, economist and retired University of Georgia professor

link

These are Libertarian views (and I tend to agree with them) but how do these jive with the federal government we have today? IT DOESN’T! Therefore, you’d have to remove the current government to achieve this and it has already been done in this country…yet here we are in this situation again!

reply to post by Hopechest


You are missing one very very very very important thing...

The matrix. The foundation upon which we create. That which dictates to us what we are able to create in this world.

When that shifts (and it is about to) from power over others to power of the self (the individual) your world or your general philosophy of life can no longer exist. This means bye bye entirely to the idea of any one of us being able to have power over another. Ruling over another. Which means that we are going to have to "remember" how to work together in a peaceful way. A truly united way. A truly enjoyable way. A truly free way. Or we as an individual will have no power.

It is only when we as an individual have lost our power (check world today) when the idea of having power over another even cares to exist.

reply to post by seabag


Maybe a bit off topic but I'd prefer to wake up to discover the federal government had

A) jailed the too big to fail bankers and all of their hangers on.
B) begun to print and circulate constitutional money as a public utility rather than as a debt instrument.
C) reduced their authority to reflect their original limitations on power.
D) eliminated most of the federal departments and agencies.

Since none of that is going to happen, the states need to step away and begin to act like responsible adults.

reply to post by seabag

What if you woke up tomorrow and government was gone?

Been thinking about this since I first saw the thread arrive... but before I go there, your politically linear definition of Libertarianism is a little skewed. We don't want NO government... we just want less. From the federal level, down, more balance through the states and local communities.

As for waking one day to find a total lack of government? It would be chaos; the kind of dream an anarchist would give their left sand-pebble for.

Government serves a purpose when it is applied correctly and not given so much power that it defeats that purpose of serving those who elect it.

What the US is going through right now is not unlike what ancient Rome experienced on more than one occasion. One good example would be the years leading up to the arrival of Julius Caesar. Here we have a republic that has collapsed from greed and special interests and in the process, opening the door to dictatorship.

On the flip, JC knew coming in that he was going to have a tough row to hoe and to reign in the madness that was Rome of the day, he had to install a regime that was brutal to adversaries while working to please the people. That doesn't make a similar fate here anything close to preferable but... ancient Rome and the US have so many things in common that it is difficult to imagine that at least some portion wasn't intentional.

Oh yes, we are the new Rome and at this moment, we do appear ready to repeat at least some of its more tragic stories in history.

reply to post by seabag


Removing the Federal Government from power does not automatically dissolve the local Government and the Police force.

It happened in Egypt. It happened in Iceland. Anarchy did not break out in the streets as a result....well maybe a bit in Egypt but I think you get my point. That is the issue I have with the video. It makes the assumption that by dissolving the Federal Government, total chaos and no rules would be an immediate result. That is an awfully big leap dont you think?

reply to post by redoubt

but before I go there, your politically linear definition of Libertarianism is a little skewed. We don't want NO government... we just want less. From the federal level, down, more balance through the states and local communities.

I agree with you but I don’t think the same can be said of true libertarians…as I showed in one quote above. There are plenty more people who share his view within the party.

“Libertarians believe in individual liberty, personal responsibility, and freedom from government – on all issues at all times… A libertarian is someone who thinks you should be free to live your life as you want to live it, not as [the President of the United States] thinks you should – who believes you should raise your children by your values, not those of some far-off bureaucrat who’s using your child as a pawn to create some brave new world – who thinks that, because you’re the one who gets up every day and goes to work, you should be free to keep every dollar you earn, to spend it, save it, give it away as you think best.”– Harry Browne (1933-2006),1996 and 2000 Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate

link

How can "freedom from government on all issues at all times" be achieved without removing government? We sure as hell can't figure out how to shrink it.

As for waking one day to find a total lack of government? It would be chaos; the kind of dream an anarchist would give their left sand-pebble for.

It would be a mess.

Thanks for the input!

reply to post by MrWendal

It happened in Egypt. It happened in Iceland. Anarchy did not break out in the streets as a result....well maybe a bit in Egypt but I think you get my point. That is the issue I have with the video. It makes the assumption that by dissolving the Federal Government, total chaos and no rules would be an immediate result. That is an awfully big leap dont you think?

No, I don’t think it’s a big leap at all. I think if the fed disappeared tomorrow we’d see the states overwhelmed (especially states with higher population dependent on government). 40% of the country wouldn’t know what to do when the assistance stopped rolling in.

reply to post by seabag


Fair point, but couldn't the same be said in the event of economic collapse? If it were to happen today (which is a possibility), it would not be due to Libertarianism. Hence why I am not making the connection?

reply to post by seabag


One of the biggest problems I had in growing closer to the Libertarians was in just those kinds of words floating around in their (then) quasi-official platform. Another was their idea of legalizing ALL drugs... which spun me about so damned fast!

As a father and grandfather, I wasn't about to align with anyone who favored this kind of madness. I mean... yeah, the war on drugs has gone way overboard but diving off the other end of the board wasn't much smarter.

It was about that time... circa 2004, when I hooked up with a state rep from the party who actually took the time to meet with me and explain a few things. One of his biggest points was that the Libertarian platform was created as a starting point. He also explained that because it was formed in this way, the general public is often turned off and that's why after all these years, even die hard Republicans who think their party is bending over won't touch them.

I began circulating with some local members and over the years, have gained what I 'think' is a better grasp of the Libertarian ideal.

Now, I wouldn't join ANY political party officially if it were to pay me a salary equal to what the CEO of Coca-Cola knocks down. But I have come to appreciate the local membership quite a lot and gain a better grip on what they are after. I kind of like it and someday... I might give up the salary requirements

I wouldnt go to work since I wouldnt have to pay property taxes anymore.

I would then spend the day with my gardens, field and livestock.

Repeat every day until I die dirty, tired and happy not once setting foot off my property. Oh the bliss. The absolute bliss of never having to go anywhere, do anything I didnt want to do and not having to see or interact with other people ever. Heaven.

reply to post by MrWendal

Fair point, but couldn't the same be said in the event of economic collapse?

Sure!

If it were to happen today (which is a possibility), it would not be due to Libertarianism. Hence why I am not making the connection?

My point is that Libertarianism won't work because most people can't handle the responsibility of self government. It would create utter chaos.

I didn't mean to imply that libertarianism is to blame for the state of the country. I simply pointed out how we had it before yet here we are. Personal responsibility is dead.

Edit to add - Libertarianism is absolutely awesome if everyone plays nice. I just don't trust that they will. In fact, I know with 100% certainty they won't!

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MrWendal

 

My point is that Libertarianism won't work because most people can't handle the responsibility of self government. It would create utter chaos.

I am not convinced of this. For there to be total chaos the entire system top to bottom would have to crash. No military, no national Guard, no Law enforcement of any kind. I don't see that happening absent a catastrophic event.

I didn't mean to imply that libertarianism is to blame for the state of the country. I simply pointed out how we had it before yet here we are. Personal responsibility is dead.

I agree for the most part personal responsibility appears dead, I think it is unfair to say we had it before and yet here we are. An argument can be made that we are here because we got away from those Libertarian ideals.

reply to post by redoubt

One of the biggest problems I had in growing closer to the Libertarians was in just those kinds of words floating around in their (then) quasi-official platform. Another was their idea of legalizing ALL drugs... which spun me about so damned fast!

Are you saying this isn't their position anymore? I think Gary Johnson et al would disagree with you. You can't have liberty and a war on drugs. Non-interventionism and waiting to be attacked before we defend ourselves is a problem for me, too.

These are issues I have a problem with. I'm more like how Jessie Venture often describes himself - "Libertarian Lite".

Thanks for the personal insight.