How do you know?

How do you know if you really exsist in the world? How do you know the difference between reality and a dream? How do you know if your not in some little bubble, but your mind is what you see around you?

I think, therefore I am.

I smoke, therefore I do not commit homicide.

...Descartes' cogito..

...or a revision...my mum nags me...therefore I'm Catholic...

Are you trying to say: How do we know that the world exists outside our mind? Does the world exist outside our mind? There is no way to tell, frankly there is no difference between what we are experiencing and having ourselves plugged into virtual reality. What we see is what our minds want us to see, not what is really there.

XAOS

Tell you what to do. Next time you run into one those guys who tells you "The universe is an illusion, there is no reality", whip out you Glock 9 and point it right between his eyes. Then say, "This is not real, it is an illusion, this not really happening to you. The bullet in the chamber of this pistol is just a figment of your imagination." Most likely you will determine that there will be an immediate reassessment on his part about the true nature of reality.

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Tell you what to do. Next time you run into one those guys who tells you "The universe is an illusion, there is no reality", whip out you Glock 9 and point it right between his eyes. Then say, "This is not real, it is an illusion, this not really happening to you. The bullet in the chamber of this pistol is just a figment of your imagination." Most likely you will determine that there will be an immediate reassessment on his part about the true nature of reality.

either that or he'll say 'I know, and my death is just an illusion and whatever comes next is an illusion and this thought is an illusion and you standing there with a smoking gun in your hand, convinced that you've 'killed me for real' are just an illusion, and you're even thinking your very own wonderful illusions.

this shows nothing about the 'true nature of reality' except that sometimes it's possible for the body's survival programs to override the mind's ability to think.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I think, therefore I am.

I smoke, therefore I do not commit homicide.

I think, therefore I can learn .

For those who think reality is illusion. Find a way to get to any war torn nation, look around and ask anyone. "Are all these corpses, fires, crying children, crippled by UXO people, just an illusion?" And I'm sure they will treat you to an illusion of their own!

Or simply go to NY and ask those who survived the attack if they believe it was all illusion!

Fristly, dry out, stop the drug use. Sign in to a rehab clinic, do 6 meetings in 6 weeks, complete your 12 steps to sobriety and then ask yourself that question again.

What if our universe is in a marble being played with by a bunch of gigantic aliens....or is in a locker in a hall of other lockers?

It was just a question that I have had on my mind for a couple of years and I didnt need those rude remarks about me being on dope or any other kinds of drugs

Originally posted by Dagger
It was just a question that I have had on my mind for a couple of years and I didnt need those rude remarks about me being on dope or any other kinds of drugs

I honestly appoligize, I didn't intent to insult you or say you are on drugs. Hell perhaps the world would be a better place if everybody did drugs. I never heard of a violent pothead before.
For the question of "How do you know?"
I firmly believe reality can exist in more than one aspect for people. For example, there are people who are EXTREAMLY sensitive to the spirit world, they see reality on very different terms than we might. Also fewer still are those who have visions or see events. As far as reality goes though imo we make our realities the way we want them, although some argue we have no choice.

The reason that I know that I exist and that the world is real, is that when I start to think "hey maybe its all a bad dream" or "Man, I sure wish this wasn't happening" .. then it is actually happening.

The world and reality is too intrusive and violent just to be an illusion.

We got burgled on Friday, and on Saturday I went to get my camera I found it was missing.

Now I expected it to be in the same place, I didn't know it had gone, I didn't move it, if the world had been in my mind it would have been there, but it wsn't. Some gutless wonder swiped it... so reality intrudes enough to make it sure that it is there.

Originally posted by Dagger
How do you know if you really exsist in the world? How do you know the difference between reality and a dream? How do you know if your not in some little bubble, but your mind is what you see around you?

Sorry about you camera NetChicken. Hope insurance will cover the cost of a new one.

The truth is: We don't really know if reality is "real" or is an "illusion". However 99.99% of the population chooses to treat reality as "real". Indeed if "all is illusion", why can't NetChicken just imagine back his camera? Why can't I just imagine a gorgeous woman beside me? A good example was Gahndi who was one of the truly great men in history. Gahndi was a hindu. One of the hindu tenets is that all is illusion, evil is an illusion, the universe is an illusion. However Gahndi reacted as if all the problems of India were real. If he really believed that the universe was an illusion, then he would have stayed home realizing that the British rule of India was just another illusion. The real question is not how you view "reality" (i, e., real or illusion), but how you chose to deal with "reality" and the universe, and most people act as if they believe that the universe is real ("reality" is real).

BECAUSE 99.9% of people belive things to be real.

Gandhi could be sure of his beliefs, but that doesn't make his beliefs true.
After all, the belief that everything is an illusion means that 'believing everything is illusion' is also an illusion.

Therefore, illusion or not, is it not better to try and make the 'illusion' or 'reality' better? More peaceful? More loving?

In the end, it doesn't matter if none of this is 'real' or not. Netchicken had a camera stolen (sorry, btw ), but the issue isn't whether the camera exists or not. The issue is, if the camera is real, then someone really stole it. And that is a reason to strive for a better world.
Even if it is simply an 'illusive world'.

One recalls Dr Johnson's reaction to Berkeley's stance on this when the good Doctor kicked a large stone very hard exclaiming "I refute it thus".
An endless source of philosophical and linguistic speculation; but that's about it.
Kick a large stone: that should prove the point.

Thanks for your support (its not too bad, the illusory insurance will pay us heaps of illusory money for it).

If the world was an illusion then my camera would still be there.

Because my mind would be the only thing controlling my reality and my mind said "the camera is in the box" the fact that the camera was NOT in the box meant that my mind was NOT the master of my reality.

Something else outside of my own reality occured. and that something showed that my mind was NOT the only reality that there is, that the world is not an illusion.

Otherwise I would still have my camera. That simple test shows that the world is NOT AN ILLUSION

[Edited on 13-5-2003 by Netchicken]

Okay, technically all you are experiencing is an illusion.

Sight: Your brains perception of light waves moving at different speeds.

Hearing: Your perception of the vibrations in things around you.

Touch: As you touch a flame you say ow hot! but all you are really experiencing is the rapid movements of atoms.

Solidity: About ninety percent of what you see is not there. The relative distances between atoms, and even atom components is very large.

If you walk into a dark room, with a coiled rope on the floor, see it, and think SNAKE! Is it really a snake? Is anything really what we percieve it to be.

Everything we know and see is what our mind wants us to see. Illusion? Yes. But it doesnt mean that these illusions cannot affect you. In your mind they are real and it will treat them thus.

So yes dagger, reality is illusion. But getting yourself a better illusion is what life is all about (But that is a different thread).

And did you ever have your camera Netchicken? It was once in your possesion, but that moment is inaccessible, completely. In the future you will maybe get a new car, or a new house. But are those things yours? Now? No more than the camera is. It is somewhere, probably surrounded by a bunch of junkies who cannot figure out its purpose, but only the present (an illusion in itself) is truly yours.

XAOS

I think these are good questions, but unfortunately with these questions lies a deeper question; Does anyone 'really' know the true answers? No. So therefore we can only answer how we see it as individuals really..In my head I personally can come up with a ton of different answers. But why bother really, we ARE here in the flesh and we are living as humans here on earth. Most of us are trying to make the best possible life for ourselves and those around us and if we dwell on things like 'do we really exist' then we may just lose hope or faith in what we know and see and believe. But I can tell you though, I've thought about your questions alot throughout my life. But when the day came that I gave birth to my daughter, from that moment on I never questioned whether we really exist, or the difference between reality and a dream. She showed me the answers through the experience of pain and the look in her eyes of hope and life and existance...as she continues to do today- 3 years later..
So really to answer you on a personal level, yes we are real, yes there is meaning to life, and a difference between reality and dreams. But also dreams are a part of reality, so really everything we experience in life and everything we see and do would be considered what makes us 'real' and not just an illusion, they are all a part of the make-up of the human mind, body, spirit and soul...
Magestica

Have another toke, Xaos, and consider the fact that our senses are physical, and they operate as such. The signals, whether very fast such as light waves, or as slow as sound waves, are all physical. How light is broken down in colors, how our brain picks up the differences, it's all a matter of fact, explained by science.
I eat junk food and do not have time to excercise, therefore I am getting out of shape. That is fact, no matter what dillusion I prefer.

And by the way, Xaos, puff-puff give-give. It's difficult to be sober talking to one who is stoned!

[Edited on 13-5-2003 by Thomas Crowne]