Iraqi oil: Once seen as U.S. boon, now it's mostly China's

Originally posted by Southern Guardian


Do you believe the stated claims from the Bush administration? Was the war really about Weapons of mass destruction, the endangerment of the Kurds? Considering as well that the cost of the Iraq war alone exceeded $2 trillion since it's inception and more than 3,000 American lives, more than 100,000 civilian Iraqi lives, was it justified?

I know your post was left for Xcathdra, but I would like to know your thoughts on the justification of millions of people who died under Saddam's control. Or, when he died, that his sons would have taken power, and continued the onslaught of killing innocent Iraqi's. Somewhere, there has to be a "justification" of purging ruthless dictators from killing millions, in the name of complete power...............



And in no way am I justifying an unjust cause to go to War either.............

Do you believe Saddam should have been left to do what he did? Did you somehow forget what he did to Kuwait, or his Own people? Do you believe that the Iraqi people could have taken matters under their own accord, and overthrown Saddam, without outside help?

Just a few questions.......

Peace.

Originally posted by sonnny1
I know your post was left for Xcathdra, but I would like to know your thoughts on the justification of millions of people who died under Saddam's control.

I never justified the millions of people who died under Saddams control. You have some nerve to argue that just because I opposed the war, somehow I supported the millions who were killed.

How many mass killings have there been by the way?

Approximately 25,000 people were massacred during the 1988 executions in Iran,
Close to 1 million people were massacred during the Rwandan genocide,
More than a million people died of starvation, torture, as the result of North Korea's concentration camps,
More than 100,000 people, activists, lost their lives during the Ethopian red terror in the early 90's

Let's not forget that much of the massacres that occurred under Saddams rule occurred well before the invasion, in fact much of the genocide occurred before the first gulf war, our first invasion of that country. The Bush administration did not push for this war to liberate anybody, it's fairly apparent.

Do you believe Saddam should have been left to do what he did?

Definitely, in fact I believe ALL the dictators, mass murders in office, in all the countries, should leave and stand trial for the injustices they've committed. Does this mean that the Iraq war was worthwhile all this time and that the Bush administration was "right" in their intentions, no. I believe they lied about their true intentions behind their invasion so that their buddies would benefit.

If Iraq was some backwater country with no resources in the middle of Africa would they have still invaded? No.

$2 trillion down the goober and you're sitting here making excuses, yet in another breath you're complaining about this administration and their spending.

"Peace"

Maybe the US had to give the ChiComms the Iraqi Oil as collateral for our Trillions of dollars in Chinese debt???

Hey somebody always has to pay the bill...guess it's better than giving them the Grand Canyon or Washington Monument.

Peace

Originally posted by Southern Guardian



I never justified the millions of people who died under Saddams control. You have some nerve to argue that just because I opposed the war, somehow I supported the millions who were killed.

I am wondering what those "people", those lives meant to you? Mere Numbers, or Trillions of Dollars worth of Numbers?

I oppose War also. War is hell, we both know this.

When do you step in? When does the Nations of the Earth step in?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
How many mass killings have there been by the way?

Approximately 25,000 people were massacred during the 1988 executions in Iran,
Close to 1 million people were massacred during the Rwandan genocide,
More than a million people died of starvation, torture, as the result of North Korea's concentration camps,
More than 100,000 people, activists, lost their lives during the Ethopian red terror in the early 90's

An absolute tragedy, and one that has left me ashamed at my fellow humans. It still doesn't mean that Saddam's topple wasn't all for naught. Did it save lives, or create more mass deaths in the long run?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Let's not forget that much of the massacres that occurred under Saddams rule occurred well before the invasion, in fact much of the genocide occurred before the first gulf war, our first invasion of that country. The Bush administration did not push for this war to liberate anybody, it's fairly apparent.

Agree. We both know the "war" was for other reasons, even if the reasons given weren't 100% truthful, or even outright BS.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Definitely, in fact I believe ALL the dictators, mass murders in office, in all the countries, should leave and stand trial for the injustices they've committed.

Agree again.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Does this mean that the Iraq war was worthwhile all this time and that the Bush administration was "right" in their intentions, no. I believe they lied about their true intentions behind their invasion so that their buddies would benefit.

This is where I don't agree with you. Because I believe even if the intentions were dishonest to go to war to begin with, The Iraqi people are not being slaughtered, the way they were with Saddam at the helm. That's MHO, and we can agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
If Iraq was some backwater country with no resources in the middle of Africa would they have still invaded? No.

Agree.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
$2 trillion down the goober and you're sitting here making excuses, yet in another breath you're complaining about this administration and their spending.

I don't care about money, when it comes down to "saving" lives. If our Government was one that was wasting money to save lives outright, I don't think I would have a problem with it. I would hope you didn't either.

Peace.

Originally posted by sonnny1
I am wondering what those "people", those lives meant to you? Mere Numbers, or Trillions of Dollars

And I'm wondering what the people of Rwanda, or North Korea, or Iran mean to you? Considering we didn't liberate those countries because of the mass killings of the people there? But we pick and choose who to liberate right, and the Iraq war was about this?

Did you support Obama's air strike in Libya? Was this justified as well? Because many people were killed and silenced in Libya as well.

The Iraq war had nothing to do with liberating people, so stop making it as though anybody who opposed the war supported the killings there. This is a pathetic attempt on your end to try and justify a war on false pretenses.

I oppose War also.

No, you support the war and you're pretty much trying to justify it with the excuse that "he needed to go anyway". It's pretty apparent to anybody that the war was a lie to begin with an incredible waste of tax payer money.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian


And I'm wondering what the people of Rwanda, or North Korea, or Iran mean to you? Considering we didn't liberate those countries because of the mass killings of the people there? But we pick and choose who to liberate right, and the Iraq war was about this?

I think I spelled it out for you, in the last post. Breathe, and reread what I said.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Did you support Obama's air strike in Libya? Was this justified as well? Because many people were killed and silenced in Libya as well.

Maybe you should read through the thread again. Ive stated on what "I believe" was the reasons on why we went to war, numerous times. I don't believe having drones in Americas skies, do you think I support the sanctions of his "drone wars" on American Civilians, in other Countries? War should be last resort, with those in control using their best judgment.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
The Iraq war had nothing to do with liberating people, so stop making it as though anybody who opposed the war supported the killings there. This is a pathetic attempt on your end to try and justify a war on false pretenses.

But, it DID stop Saddam from murdering Millions more. It seems you are still angry at Bush and Co. for going to war, never looking at the lives it saved. Are you more concerned about the trillions of dollars? Is that what you really are saying ?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
No, you support the war and you're pretty much trying to justify it with the excuse that "he needed to go anyway". It's pretty apparent to anybody that the war was a lie to begin with an incredible waste of tax payer money.

Your "assuming" SG. Its pathetic.

America didn't finish the War they started with Saddam. You remember? The War Saddam started with Kuwait. America started another war to finish what it started, regardless on how you want to spin it. And regardless on how bad you want to spin it, Saddam, and his sons, and his regime stopped killing the Iraqi people in mass amounts. America has spent money recklessly in other wars also. It wasn't the first time, it wont be the last. I don't like it, and have lost family because of it.

Thats the truth SG.

Originally posted by sonnny1

Your "assuming" SG. Its pathetic.

America didn't finish the War they started with Saddam. You remember? The War Saddam started with Kuwait. America started another war to finish what it started, regardless on how you want to spin it. And regardless on how bad you want to spin it, Saddam, and his sons, and his regime stopped killing the Iraqi people in mass amounts. America has spent money recklessly in other wars also. It wasn't the first time, it wont be the last. I don't like it, and have lost family because of it.

Thats the truth SG.

You may not remember what GB Sr had said about leaving Saddam with a respectable amount of hardware and how crucial it was to keeping iran in check. Why else do you think GB Sr did not finish off Sadam completly??

It is apparent you either have a short memory or like spinning things that do not suit you and your party.

GB Sr was a traditional conservative, not a NEO-conservative like the other scum. Find out what the difference is if you care. Ron Paul and Rand Paul are also traditional conservatives. Romney is not. GB Jr was not. Dick Cheney was not.

There are also neo-liberals that are fake liberals like Obama is. You don't know # apparently. Clinton was a traditional liberal. Obama is a NEO-liberal. NEO anything sucks. Period

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

And I'm wondering what the people of Rwanda, or North Korea, or Iran mean to you? Considering we didn't liberate those countries because of the mass killings of the people there? But we pick and choose who to liberate right, and the Iraq war was about this?

So where was the opposition to GB Jr when everyone was talking about going to war with iraq? We already know he had no WMD to speak off(except trace amounts of gas) YET there was hardely any opposition at all.

The democrats were complacent about everything. They deserve no sympathy!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07


You may not remember what GB Sr had said about leaving Saddam with a respectable amount of hardware and how crucial it was to keeping iran in check. Why else do you think GB Sr did not finish off Sadam completly??

You obviously don't "remember" ANY of the UN mandates, and what they went there to do.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
It is apparent you either have a short memory or like spinning things that do not suit you and your party.

First, what "Party" do you believe I'm involved with, oh wise one? Clearly you don't know me, but your assumptions clearly spell out a need to point a finger at me. Why is that?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
GB Sr was a traditional conservative, not a NEO-conservative like the other scum. Find out what the difference is if you care. Ron Paul and Rand Paul are also traditional conservatives. Romney is not. GB Jr was not. Dick Cheney was not.

Why the personal venom towards me? Honestly, its unbecoming of you. I know the differences. I am an Independent. I voted for Ron Paul, Twice..... Not that it matters, since you obviously "know" more about me, then I do.......

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
You don't know # apparently.

You know, Ive spoken to plenty of folks on this site, many I agree with, many I don't.


If you cant talk civilized, without personal attacks, then quit replying to my posts.

Its THAT easy.

Originally posted by sonnny1

You obviously don't "remember" ANY of the UN mandates, and what they went there to do.

So where were the WMD then?

First, what "Party" do you believe I'm involved with, oh wise one? Clearly you don't know me, but your assumptions clearly spell out a need to point a finger at me. Why is that?

Only neo-conservatives still believe the lies about WMD and try to spin the second gulf war as legitimate.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07


Why the personal venom towards me? Honestly, its unbecoming of you. I know the differences. I am an Independent. I voted for Ron Paul, Twice..... Not that it matters, since you obviously "know" more about me, then I do.......

Because I don't like neo-conservatives or neo-liberals that are full of #.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

If you cant talk civilized, without personal attacks, then quit replying to my posts.

Its THAT easy.

I thought conservatives had thick skin and don't like "political correctness". I guess neo-conservatives are different though.

Originally posted by sonnny1
But, it DID stop Saddam from murdering Millions more.

No it did not stop Saddam from murdering "millions more". Approx 900,000 lives over 20 years were lost under Saddams regime and this includes the Iraq Iran war in which Saddam was backed by American money, it excludes the 2003 invasion. While alot of people died under Saddam, it's pretty apparent that you're desperately trying to over inflate the numbers of those deaths to suit your arguments. What's worse, you're making bold assumptions that "millions would have died anyway if we didn't do anything" even though you have no basis for this argument.

You know what's more amusing? The fact that the 2003 invasion added another 100,000 deaths to the total number of victims, yet you're sitting here arguing that it supposedly stopped Saddam from "killing millions more":

One last question bears asking. Assuming that 800,000 Iraqis lost their lives during the Saddam Hussein years, does even that justify killing an additional 100,000, supposedly to be rid of Saddam? "He who does battle with monsters needs to watch out lest he in the process becomes a monster himself," Nietzche wrote in Beyond Good and Evil. "And if you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare right back at you."

Nowhere has that been more true, in this young and morally stunted century, than with America's monstrous battle in Iraq.

middleeast.about.com...

You don't really care about those victims, you only care about justifying this war. What's more, it's pretty apparent that people like you in another breath would oppose American troops being sent into Africa to stop the genocide there, because lives don't matter to you.

It seems you are still angry at Bush and Co. for going to war, never looking at the lives it saved.

I'm angry that we were lied to, I'm angry that the administration used the deaths of Saddams many victims to fund a war based on corporate agendas. It seems that YOU on the other hand are still trying to justify this war 10 years on just because the president who pushed for this war had a big ol' [R] next to his name and you refuse to admit he lied and his war was a monumental failure. You invested so much of your time into defending and justifying the war all this time that you're so afraid of really admitting it was an absolute waste and unjustified.

This war is going to weigh down on the legacy of Bush for a long time pal and no amount of excuses are going to change this.

Your "assuming" SG. Its pathetic.

I'm not assuming anything. You're the one sitting here making every effort to justify this war, using baseless inflated numbers and assumptions. You're too stubborn to admit that the war was unjustified and a failure. You never opposed it, it's pretty obvious.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

What's worse, you're making bold assumptions that "millions would have died anyway if we didn't do anything" even though you have no basis for this argument.

No basis???

I guess the first few hundred thousand Saddam killed didn’t count.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by sonnny1

You obviously don't "remember" ANY of the UN mandates, and what they went there to do.

So where were the WMD then?

First, what "Party" do you believe I'm involved with, oh wise one? Clearly you don't know me, but your assumptions clearly spell out a need to point a finger at me. Why is that?

Only neo-conservatives still believe the lies about WMD and try to spin the second gulf war as legitimate.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07


Why the personal venom towards me? Honestly, its unbecoming of you. I know the differences. I am an Independent. I voted for Ron Paul, Twice..... Not that it matters, since you obviously "know" more about me, then I do.......

Because I don't like neo-conservatives or neo-liberals that are full of #.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

If you cant talk civilized, without personal attacks, then quit replying to my posts.

Its THAT easy.

I thought conservatives had thick skin and don't like "political correctness". I guess neo-conservatives are different though.

No. I have a thick skin. I have been trying not to stoop down to the levels of people like you. I could easily call you names, and dig into your "superiority" complex, but I choose not to. You are the A typical (insert your brand of idiocy) who frequents these sites, trying to hammer your "version" of events. You cant control your emotions. Its sad. Your labels are just that also. Labels, that have no meaning. Clearly its YOU that doesn't know #............

Im done with you.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian


No it did not stop Saddam from murdering "millions more". Approx 900,000 lives over 20 years were lost under Saddams regime and this includes the Iraq Iran war in which Saddam was backed by American money, it excludes the 2003 invasion.

Approximately?

You don't know !


Are you really claiming he "only" killed a million people? Look we both know the war was fought for "other" reasons, then human rights. That's a give in. But to say I'm "justifying" the war is insane. I'm looking at the only good thing that could come out of that ridiculous war, the Saving of lives in the long run. If you cant take even that little bit of sanity out of an insane war, then I pity you as a human being.......



We have NOTHING left to talk about........

reply to post by sonnny1


Do you have any idea how insulting it is to the people who lost 3000 people on 9-11-2001 from that false-flag attack and the resulting BS wars that followed to come on here and try to defend not only afghanistan that was a resource grab, but also the iraq second war? Seriously!

I already said the first gulf war was justified so clearly I can't be a republican hater. I try to be as unbiased as possible in my comments but clearly my patience has limits. Both bush and cheney should have been tried for treason and if found guilty then executed.

And obviously the democrats who were complacent are accomplices to crime and should also stand trial.

I didn't join ATS to make friends. And I am not good in sugarcoating mass murder either!

reply to post by sonnny1

Originally posted by sonnny1
I'm looking at the only good thing that could come out of that ridiculous war, the Saving of lives in the long run.

The only time people like you and Seabag care about saving innocent lives lost under murderous regimes is when it justifies wars being pushed by Republican administrations. Outside of that people like you would have never bat an eye. Don't talk to me about "saving lives" because the war had nothing to do with it, and your support for the war had nothing to do with it. You can move along now.

Wonder how many innocents were killed in Libya,Pakistan,Yemen,Somalia killed by that Us regime who doesn't have an R by there names.

Pretty easy to tie the last decade of war to someone else's foreign policy failures, Like Clinton or Charlie Wislon.

But the blame game is not the topic here,neither are posters, China getting Iraqi oil is.