The Sultanate of Sula ended in 1878. Humans dying now only because of GREED.

1. There are NO kings or sultans in the democratic republic of Philippines. Everyone is a citizen, abiding by the Philippines Constitution.

Anyone who claims otherwise is only a seccessionist or traitor, and the Philippine govt MUST deal with them accordingly, because if the govt fails, its own legitimacy to rule will end and chaos reign instead.

The last king of the Sulu Sultanate ceded all rights to Spain by a peace treaty in 1878 and upheld by International Court of Justice in 2003. With Philippine self determination and indepence, all past terrorities held by colonial powers was returned back to to the Free Philippine People.

Sabah, a part of its territory, was ceded by the last sulu sultan for pepertuity to a british company in 1878 for annual cessation payments of $1700. The company in turn was turned over to the British govt in full - its profits and debts, lock,stock and barrel. And when England gave full indepence to Malaysia, Sabah was included, even the cessation payments which Malaysia had never failed to pay up.


2. Ever since 1878, the descendents of the Sulu Sultanate had done NOTHING for its own people, let alone its own people in Sabah. There were no courts, no security, no education, no healthcare, no social expenditure, NOTHING to the people. $1700 back in 1878 was a HUGE sum, but only the descendents enjoyed it for themselves.

They had done NOTHING for the ex people of the dead sultanate, FAILED THEM and had absolve ALL RESPONSIBILITY to them. Thus Sabahans owe them NOTHING.


3. The presence of Philippine militants in Sabah IS AN ACT OF WAR upon a sovereign nation, as they are armed and with intentions to kill and had already started slaughtering innocent malaysians, for the purpose to claim terroritory.

If the Philippine Govt refuses to act DECISELY upon those militants, it only proves that they are complicit in this ACT OF WAR upon Malaysian territory.


4. When a landlord cede or leases a house at $1700 a year FOREVER, and signed upon the documents, the contract STANDS.

Today, the descendants of the sulu not only seek to increase the price to Billions of dollars to dishonor the contract, they even intend to backed it up with VIOLENCE if they do not get what they want. This is against EVERY contractual law on Earth, if not International Rule of Law.


5. Thus, the Malaysian govt have EVERY right to determine the level of response to those armed and dangerous militant invasion inorder to protect its own citizens and defend the nation. There is NO such thing as proportionate response in the violent act of war uncalled for by those militants whom had already proven they are ready to kill and had killed.


6. The militants will get no support and if they refused to lay down their arms, instead seek for death, then both the Malaysian and Philippine govt MUST grant their request, including to the leader descendant calling out for slaughter - DEATH. Better them whom sought for violence than to have many more innocents caught up in between as it drags on.


7. Can the insignificant nobody me claim today to be the descendant of Julius Ceasar and his wife Cleopatra, Ruler of Egypt, and thus lay claim to roman estates throughout his conquest as well as Cleopatra's Egypt or perhaps 10 billion dollars a year as idemity? I am sure I can find a few simple minded suicide bombers to lay seige upon national capitals to make them bow to my demands.

BUT that would only be GRAND LARCENY of EPIC HISTORIC PROPORTIONS, modern daylight robbery. And that's what this whole issue by the sulu descendants is all about - GRAND LARCENY.

May his supporters wake up and realizes that they are only fighting and killing and dying for the sulu descendants greed. He has no intention or the capability to rule the land effectively, NOR will he ever gain back that land. Sabahans will NEVER bow to this absentee landlord and civil war will only ensue.

All the descendants and their cronies want is MONEY. Billions of it. They care nothing about blood spilt, afterall, its others and innocent others blood, not theirs.

May they and their supporters be brought to justice before more precious human lives are lost.

That sounds interesting and I am sure there is a lot of truth to it. I don't know much about that country at all though and it sounds like I am hearing one side of the story in your OP. I think it has a lot of truth to it though. To try to fix injustices in other countries is almost impossible for us, we have problems trying to fix some similar injustices here in America. If America's government did go out and try to help fix this, it would probably get worse

Though I must plead almost total ignorance on this topic, your post did certainly pique my interest!

The obvious problems of colonial powers interjecting their influence on citizens of faraway lands has made yet another victim, causing social instability. As the Spaniards and the British, under the guise of the British North Borneo Company, seem to be determining who the spoils of conquest actually belong to. (Ignoring the fact that people actually inhabited the land in the first place!)

*Now, don't get me wrong, of course, this is a question of historical perspective, and the reality of conquering nations has had repercussions practically the world over.

HOWEVER, it is interesting that this case has been heard in an international court as recently as 2003!

Of course, these things are never black vs. white, and here is the "gray" part:

On 22 January 1878, an agreement was signed between the Sultanate of Sulu and British commercial syndicate (Alfred Dent and Baron von Overback), which stipulated that North Borneo was either ceded or leased (depending on translation used) to the British syndicate in return for payment of 5000 Malayan Dollar per year.[33] [31]
British version
“ ... hereby grant and cede of our own free and sovereign will to Gustavus Baron de Overbeck of Hong Kong and Alfred Dent Esquire of London...and assigns for ever and in perpetuity all the rights and powers belonging to us over all the territories and lands being tritutary to us on the mainland of the island of Borneo commencing from the Pandassan River
on the north-west coast and extending along the whole east coast as far as the Sibuco River in the south and comprising amongst other the States of Paitan, Sugut, Bangaya, Labuk, Sandakan, Kina Batangan, Mumiang, and all the other territories and states to the southward thereof bordering on Darvel Bay and as far as the Sibuco river with all the islands within three marine leagues of the coast.[34]
”
Sulu version
“ ...do hereby lease of our own freewill and satisfaction to...all the territories and lands being tributary to [us] together with their heirs, associates, successors and assigns forever and until the end of time, all rights and powers which we possess over all territories and lads tributary to us on the mainland of the Island of Borneo, commencing from the Pandassan River on the west coast to Maludu Bay, and extending along the whole east coast as far as Sibuco River on the south,..., and all the other territories and states to the southward thereof bordering on Darvel Bay and as far as the Sibuco River, ..., [9 nautical miles] of the coast."[35] ”

On 22 April 1903 His Majesty Sultan Jamalul Kiram signed a document known as "Confirmation of cession of certain islands", under what he either grant and ceded or leased additional islands in the neighbourhood of the mainland of North Borneo from Banggi Island to Sibuku Bay to British North Borneo Company. The sum 5,000 dollars a year payable every year increased to 5,300 dollars a year payable every year.

SOURCE

So, a case of ambiguity in translation, and the opportunity for someone to get their own sultanate along with all the wealth that would come with it seems to be at the heart of all this... hopefully the actual PEOPLE of the Philippines will get a say as to what happens this time around. (Oh yeah, and that not too many people have to lose their lives over this.)

Thanks for enlightening me on a topic I knew nothing about!

the Billmeister

To be clear, I was obviously aware of the current situation in Borneo, only, I had no idea of the historical overtones involved... the mainstream media is focusing on the upcoming elections as the source of the conflict, when. as the OP points out, it clearly stems from disagreement over an age old treaty.

the Billmeister

Thanks for the replies

I agree that there is nothing that America can do, but at the least, americans and the rest of our world be aware of what's going on, as such issues could have cascading effects that will ultimately hurt international security,trade, and more critically - precious human lives, and when SHTF, we know not the causes and become susceptabile to other's narratives, some true, and others more sadly, malevolant that would hurt everyone sharing our world.

Facts are often readily avaliable in our modern connected world - the net or even face to face. There is truly only 6 degress of separation between humans, to discern truths, painful...as it often is to many....

Hi, i'm a noob here just recently registered although been lurking this website for some time already.

With regards to the OP, as what some of the comments posted here, only one side has presented his side and we have not heard of the other side yet. I found an article today which for me has more truth in it and what's intriguing is it came from the same side as the OP.
A portion of it i'm quoting below and reading the whole article is quite interesting:

Lahad Datu: Is there a solution?

...
A senior lawyer from Sandakan asked me about the Malaysia versus Indonesia case of Sipadan and Ligitan islands in which the International Court of Justice ruled that Sabah has sovereignty over the contested islands by virtue of an old legislation regulating the collection of turtle eggs ordained by the former British colonial government.

The Philippines applied to intervene as a third party in the proceedings but was disallowed because both Malaysia and Indonesia objected to it; now why? I believe both Malaysia and Indonesia will go home empty-handed because the Philippines can and will be able to establish sovereignty claims on Sabah thereby making ownership of the two islands theirs as well.

I asked him back: if in a court case, both sides of the legal team deliberately conceal evidence with the intention of misleading the judges, how legitimate is a judgment which was rendered in ignorance? His answer was “the judgment does not hold water”.

I was also asked about the Madrid Protocol signed by Germany, Britain, and Spain which contained provisions greatly distorted by lay Malaysian commentators.

If a bandit attempted to rob your house and then entered into an agreement with a second bandit in relation to the loots which may not have been taken from your house, is the agreement legal? The answer is NO because such agreement is void ab initio (from the beginning).

Readers who still think that just because certain people in Sabah of the past had chosen to form Malaysia on Sept 16, 1963, such action supersedes the sovereignty of the Philippines have complete absurd mentality. They should read what Tunku Abdul Rahman signed on July 31,1963 – Article 12 of the Manila Accord:

“The Philippines made it clear that its position on the inclusion of North Borneo in the Federation of Malaysia is subject to the final outcome of the Philippine claim to North Borneo. The Ministers took note of the Philippine claim and the right of the Philippines to continue to pursue it in accordance with international law and the principle of the pacific settlement of disputes. They agreed that the inclusion of North Borneo in the Federation of Malaysia would not prejudice either the claim or any right thereunder. Moreover, in the context of their close association, the three countries agreed to exert their best endeavours to bring the claim to a just and expeditious solution by peaceful means, such as negotiation, conciliation, arbitration, or judicial settlement as well as other peaceful means of the parties’ own choice, in conformity with the Charter of the United Nations and the Bandung Declaration.”

He also signed on Aug 5, 1963 – Article 8 of the Joint Statement by the Philippines, the Federation of Malaya, and Indonesia:

“In accordance with paragraph 12 of the Manila Accord, the three Heads of Government decided to request the British Government to agree to seek a just and expeditious solution to the dispute between the British Government and the Philippine Government concerning Sabah (North Borneo) by means of negotiation, conciliation and arbitration, judicial settlement, or other peaceful means of the parties’ own choice in conformity with the Charter of the United Nations. The three Heads of Government take cognizance of the position regarding the Philippine claim to Sabah (North Borneo) after the establishment of the Federation of Malaysia as provided under paragraph 12 of the Manila Accord, that is, that the inclusion of Sabah (North Borneo) in the Federation of Malaysia does not prejudice either the claim or any right thereunder.”
...

Whole article here. Lahad Datu: Is there a solution?

1. The Sipadan and Ligitan case of administration was between 2 nations before the ICC. Currently, Philippines is ONLY a claimnaint, not a resolved and undisputed owner of the islands, and thus have no jurisdication on those islands in any manner that would be prejudical to the judgement of resolution, which is in accordance to the terms of treaty between UK, Malaysia and Philippines iwth regards to the Manila Accord.

The article writer's judgement is only based upon prejudical and ignorant opinion, a right but still ignorant.


2. To use Bandits example to show the case of landmass claims is disingenious, for using such examples, then planet Earth would have to be CARVED up into 7 BILLION pieces, because each of our ancestors had been 'bandits' too.

Banditry was common before the existance of international Rule of Law in the course of our curren civilisation since it began. Chinese migrants wandered down into South Asia, so did indigenous australians and sub-continent Indians, displacing whomever was the local despot through the force of arms.

Rome was attacked by millions of german migrants, but were beaten back. However, they could not fight against the eastern european tribes later on and fell. Rome was no more.

One only owns what one can defend. Failure, and it will result in a transfer of ownership. Those were the days.

But today, after our world had seen 2 Great world wars, mankind formed UN, grew wiser and more matured, and sought agreements by living and upholding the international Rule of Law to avoid bloodshed again. Colonials returned the land back to their People so long as they are capable of ruling, protecting and caring for it.


3. The Manila Accord sought for peaceful means as atribitration to the issue of Sabah.

Were the armed philippine militants currently in Malaysia now representatives of the Philippine govt, acting on behalf of the constitutionally legitimate Philippine govt, and had sought PEACEFULL means?

None.

The Malaysian govt had been kind enough to give those invaders a month to talk and lay down their arms. The militants response was to use the ruse of white flags to lure the Malaysian police to their sector and then greet the unsuspecting Malaysian policemen with hails of bullets, slaughtering several of them.

The militants made their choice - death, and it shall be granted to EVERY single one of them, before even more innocents die.

Regarding the Manila Accord, Philippines had not been negligent in pursuing its claims. However, what Philippines have realistically as a point is the cecession treaty for North Bornea signed by the sulus in 1878 to the british company, which may not hold up in the ICC in favor to Philippines, who is a beneficiary of another treaty by the same sulus in 1878 when it surrended its territories to Spain, and Spain had agreed to honor the sulu treaty with the Brit company.

Philippines prefers to work pragmatically on economic betterment of its people for peace than to destroy it over a contentious piece of treaty, and is a close trading neigbour as well as ally of Malaysia and ASEAN, and had enjoy peace for decades.

Make no mistakes, those philippine militants invaders on Malaysian soil are NOT for the glory and sovereignity of the Free Philippine People. Those militants are there for themselves, more for their leader, for GREED, for himself and his cronies. His men and supporters are only meant as canon fodder to protect him to claim billions in another great display of grand larceny in the guise of dubious and defunct ancient rights.

You seem to be back pedalling on your original post now and if I may quote you:

3. The presence of Philippine militants in Sabah IS AN ACT OF WAR upon a sovereign nation, as they are armed and with intentions to kill and had already started slaughtering innocent malaysians, for the purpose to claim terroritory. If the Philippine Govt refuses to act DECISELY upon those militants, it only proves that they are complicit in this ACT OF WAR upon Malaysian territory.

And from what i've read on various news sources, the encounter that happened was between these armed sulus and the Police/militaries of Malaysia. I have not read anywhere innocent civilians were being targeted and also if you've been following the news, you would clearly see the Phils. government is clearly against this incursion.

It has been said too it is an open secret these armed sulu people of the Sultan where the same people Malaysia has trained and equipped with arms to wage war against the Philippine government in Mindanao for several decades.

www.straitstimes.com...

...
The fighters are veteran members of the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF) who waged a decades-long insurgency against the Philippine government before signing a 1996 peace pact, Muhajab Hashim told AFP. "Many have slipped through the security forces. They know the area like the back of their hands because they trained there in the past," Mr Hashim told AFP.
...

Now don't get me wrong that I support what these guys are doing as what they did is really unacceptable but this looks to me more like a case of "you reap what you sow" or karma as your original post certainly reeks of getting favourable views by presenting slanted half truths and whole lies.

reply to post by marhaba


1. You may think yourself sharp, perhaps envious of the flags which in my history here, I care nothing about except truth and realities, but please do not be deluded. I had not backtracked.

The Malaysian police force are but civilians too, for this matter of invasion should be left to military forces whom are best trained and equipped to handle crisis of such.

But these men are trained primarily for handling local issues, to protect unarmed civilians whom may be only their own wives and kids. Most critically, they ARE innocent, and had not provoked or even antagonise ANYONE from philippine, yet, they were slaughtered. Policemen are not military combatants.


2. Open secret or not, it is STILL circumstancial evidences or the lack of it that you are providing and trying to mislead here. No one cares who the heck MILF are right now in the current crisis, as the name of the militants are tagged and owned by a defunct ancient tribal group.

If the MILF wishes to intervene and add to the chaos, rest assured, they too will be dealt accordingly to the Rule of Law.


3. Regardless of your support or not, Malaysia has a right to defend its administrative territory and the Free Philippine People have a right to disown and regard those self servicing greedy traitors, and seek for for justice to be done, one way or another, to ensure relations between Malaysia and Philippine remains harmonious.


4. The only one who is presenting half truths and lies is sadly by you done insidiously, and proven by me here. Just be honest to yourself. Logic and reason rules, you cannot escape from it no matter how cunning you try to hide it. I, as usual, gain nothing from this, for I am no malaysian or philippine, but only a seeker for truths. Why do you seek instead to hide from realities and truths?

Why should i be envious on stars and flags, does it mean something or can it be converted to commodity here? You're really reaching here now and if indeed it can be converted into cash, then mabrook to you and your stars.

I'm sorry if i have exposed the irony of your nickname and your posts here by presenting the real facts with actual links which you are dismissing as lies where as until now all you've got are your own slanted opinions and not even a single iota of evidence presented.

Don't shoot me, i'm just a messenger and those quoted links i have given all came from the Malaysian side and their former muslim buddies, the warrior tausugs of sulu trained and armed by the Malaysian themselves to create trouble in Mindanao for several decades. So who is complicit now?

You keep saying it was a Malayian Police operation when it clearly says from the Malaysian themselves that it is a joint Police/Military operation who running after these group, so are you telling us now those planes dropping bombs and the APCs all came from the Police group? (hhhmmm....another lie got exposed)

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Sorry i forgot to ask, you said you are neither "malaysian or philippine", so what are you and why do i get the feeling you want the Philippine gov't to be held responsible with this malaysian created "monster" that is now turning back on his own creator?

These sulu tausugs don't even call themselves philippine citizen and even if these 2 factions of moro rebels already made a peace pact jsut recently after decades of war with the Phil. government and its people, there's still another moro group called Abu Sayaf who's been wreaking terroristic activities in the Philippines and whose members are the same members from the MNLF and MILF. There has been some rumors too the Abu Sayaf originally were created by CIA, just like the Talibanand i'm trying to find the link of that news somewhere.

Are you by any chance a CIA, i mean american? Most people of Mindanao thinks the reason why this region will never became peaceful is due to some machination by some shadowy group or people pulling strings to create discord on the region and the way you just presented yourself here, you sound like you are trying to goad people from both sides to become antagonized and go into war with each other so why the interest and some hateful rhetoric if you are neither a citizen of both Malaysia and the Philippines?

Why "SeekerofTruth"?

reply to post by marhaba


Look at what you wrote.

Do you not even comprehend what you are spouting ignorantly, and accusing me of?

1. ) 6 innocent policemen were ambushed and slaughtered. They were not military combatants. Your IGNORANCE is telling.


2.) You attacked me in your posts and accuse me of several things WITHOUT any shred of evidence, except your own failure to comprehend written english and your ignorances.

IF you wish to join in this discussion, please provide facts, or at least logic and reason. and not your irrationalities, unsubstantiated claims and ignorances and delusions that makes me suspect you need to go see a psychiatrist soon. This ATS, not your personal fantasyland of make beliefs.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


I presented evidence and it even came from a Malaysian writer in a Malaysian media while you haven't until now and have not even offered a rebuttal on what he said.
You're a disinfo agent.
Case closed.

reply to post by marhaba


The deluded you may desire for a your one sided beliefs and insane assumptions to be closed, but please, do not assume ATS members are all fools. It would not have survived till today and into the future if so.

Thanks for your participation on this thread and showing how one's rationality, or the lack of it works. We all serve purposes for the general good on ATS, but only for the more discerning seeking to understand more.

Cheers.

I am shocked and saddened that the Philippine govt REFUSED to arrest the self proclaimed sulu sultan. Right now he is sitting in comfort in Philippines, giving interviews to the media and foolish syncophants hoping for a piece of the pie, IF he is successful in his claims.

Philippine is a democratic country, ruled by law from its constitution. Karrim is a philippine citizen and subjected to philippine laws. And there NO laws in Philippines that support slaughtering of innocent people - local or foreign, or worse, to dish out carnage and slaying in a foreign land in times of peace.

Karrim had ORDERED the invasion upon Malaysia, and his wife had inflamed the malaysian citizens living there to rise up and kill the non-filipinoes. These had been done OPENLY, and reported by the press. These are evidences of their crimes and YET, the Philippine govt had done nothing.

I do understand the underlaying reasons why they did not act, because they fear that arresting Karrim would only create martyrs out of them, rallying others to such foolish cause and create instability within Philippines, already wrecked with seccessionists.

BUT the truth is that if the Philippine FEARS to act intelligently and decisively, to bring Karrim to justice, then it WILL ONLY BE AN OPEN INVITION to others to seek seccession for their own causes - druglords, 2 bit tribal groups, sugar barons, crime gangs, corrupted elites, etc, and then Philippines WILL ONLY BE DESTROYED..WITHIN...BY THEMSELVES.


In the past, Philippine territories were mainly island chains and ruled by weak tribal factions. They had never unite, had never progressed and evolved while the West did. As a result, when the colonizer Spain came in the 15th century, they easily fell and became slaves, had remained slaves, thanks to their regressive leaders who led them.

It was Spain who UNITED the terroritories and gave it its name, and brought civilisation to the terroritory. But colonialism had never worked, for no human remains slave for long. The slaves and their descendants learnt civilisation and in time tried to overthrow the spanish. They failed.

It was the Spanish American war in the late 18th century that they saw a glimmer of independence, when spain ceded its philippine terroritories won or signed by treaties from the indigenous people, those that they held, to USA in 1898.

The philippine slaves of many tribes including the Moros fought as one united country sharing the dream of unity an freedom, from 1898 against USA, till their absolute defeat to America in 1913. However, USA is not a colonizer, and by 1916, it promised indepence to the People, which in 1935, they ruled themselves, but were disrupted by WW2, and yet once again, USA rush to their help to free them from the brutual japs occupying their lands, and sovereignity by 1946.

Thus, as all can see, those calling for seccession in Philippine today are traitors to the philippine forefathers whom had fought TOGETHER as a nation to end their enslavement. If they had each fought as a tribal unit alone, they would have failed miserably, and remained slaves, even today and become colonized by others -such as China or Islamic Radicals.

It was the blood of ALL Philippine People past, that had created the progress and evolution of its society today, united by its constitution and rule of law. And for the seccessionists, they MUST be dealt with, or the blood, sacrifices and efforts of the founding fathers would have been in vain, as well the thousands of american troops who died there to free their fellow human brothers and sisters of the Philippine People from the japanese imperial army in the 40s.

May karrim and all his fellow seccessionist conspirators be arrested, tried and sentence after trial. The Rule of Law must be upheld AT ALL TIMES, or chaos will only follow. The seccessionists are but few. They may make us of all forms of media to trumpet their causes, BUT equally, so too can the majority of Philippine People and the govt do the same, and win.