Why few people choose to overcome indoctrination.

Recently I decided to watch recorded debates on Creationism vs Evolution on Youtube. As I watched video after video of debates, it sorta seemed to me that the people defending Evolution were making allot more sense then the people defending Creationism. I started to research the websites that the debaters on both sides would mention from time to time in the debates. Before I continue, I was raised in Christian Theology, Mormonism to be exact.

On the Evolutionary side, there is a phenomenal mound of proof, that has been built up over the past century. Plica Semilunaris, Goose bumps, similarities to reptiles, even fish in embryo development, junk DNA, identical endogenous retrovirus traces in us, and in other species, dormant genes, transitional fossils, and much much more.

Then I would look over at the Creationist side, and would basically find. Evolution has not been observed to actually happen, therefore it isn't true, it is not proven so the only other source of information is the bible, they would talk about Noah and the Ark, and how all the animals today in a sense speciated from the animals on the ark, but they didn't change physical form completely.......... They can accept that over 100 years of proof???? how???.

So I went on to look into how someone could be voluntarily ignorant, and not listen to reason. I found research that had been done on the brain, where electromagnetic fields were emitted right next to the brain, causing spiritual experiences. It explained how high amounts of stress, or even at random moments something like this could occur naturally. So someone raised into a specific religious environment would be conditioned to think these feelings are confirmations of a higher power, and that the theology that they are presented with is verifiable also through these feelings. These feelings start around the age of 9 or 10, pretty close to the Mormon age of accountability.

I went to meet with my bishop, (a common Mormon leader of a geographical congregation) and I presented all of this to him, I told him about all of my research, and all of what I found. He then went on to explain several other people he had witnessed turn to Atheism, and how they were miserable now. My honest reply to him, was that I wasn't miserable, that in fact life was good, I told him that I was excited for the future. He then advised me to pray about evolution, and said he was sure I would feel a stupor of thought on it. That right there sounded allot like preconditioning me for that specific experience, and he probably didn't even realize it.

I made a big mistake in my opinion, I told my parents............ They automatically assumed that the rest of my life was going to be crap now, and that I would experience dark bitterness, and was under the influence of the devil. They would mention a family member, who has been to prison a couple of times, and how he believes in God, as if to point out in some way that what I was doing was worst than what he has done. I have had to watch my mother break down in tears many times now, I feel like dirt for that.

I am almost considering acting like I am back in faith, and pretending to believe again. I realize now that I am going to have to face allot of hurt people, that I put myself in this situation. I am almost overwhelmed by this, and would rather just pretend to believe again, but I am tired of being a hypocrite. Ignorance is bliss, but Knowledge is liberating.

Originally posted by Khedwulf
He then went on to explain several other people he had witnessed turn to Atheism, and how they were miserable now.

I told my parents............ They automatically assumed that the rest of my life was going to be crap now, and that I would experience dark bitterness

Note that they didnt care about whether your opinion was TRUE or not.
Its the old Red pill / Blue pill thing of the matrix movie.

Most people just want to be happy.

Agent Smith: Do we have a deal, Mr. Reagan.
Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.
Agent Smith: Then we have a deal?
Cypher: I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand?

Well done you have broken free of religion, you can still believe in a God just don't fall for other peoples version of God, he/she/it should be personal.
Religion is nothing more than control man made lies made by people after something from you.
If you are becoming an Atheist good for you but do not live a lie and fake what you do not believe it will just make you unhappy.
Live free and do what you feel is right for you.
Good luck in your journey

reply to post by boymonkey74


I don't see a God or God's as impossible, but as something that is improbable. So I guess I am an Atheist, until a good amount of legitimate improbable proof sways me to not be.

reply to post by Khedwulf


Boymonkey summed up some of my thoughts as well. You don't have to be an atheist to believe in science or the physical observations the scientific community scrutinizes and analyses. I myself am an atheist however it's not a requirement for any sciences. When people bring up the bible I wonder why they think the word of man is the word of God just because a man-written book says it is. I think that the bible has some good messages mixed in with awful church indoctrination and fear mongering. I think the biggest responsibility you have OP is to discern if you really disbelieve in god or if you disbelieve in the man made institution that religion has made in God's name.

I can't say what happened before the big bang, its all hypothesis based on our observations of the present so who can really discount the possibility of a god. But as an atheist I can say with confidence that we have no physical proof or observation backing up the claims of God's intervention on our planet as it is today. We have put evolution to the test and succeeded in medicine and other areas so to discount it all and just say it was God and the simplified version is nonsense IMHO. Kudos to your free thinking and the ability to research and see both sides to compare.

reply to post by Khedwulf


Makes you agnostic really not atheist.
Watch out plenty of Christians on today I hope none come on with the threats of hell.
Good luck fella take care.

reply to post by Khedwulf


We often like to use terms like 'indoctrination' to tag those with whom we disagree. It not only gives our opposing opinion some self-perceived foundation, but it superficially strips away the same from our chosen opponents.

Personally, I cannot buy the current scheme of evolution because I find it riddled with holes. On the flip, creation is just one gigantic hole but... there is a difference between faith and science and approaching them the same is an invitation to failure.

Be it science or faith, people CHOOSE their beliefs. In fact, science is itself a form of faith because even as smart as we are... or like to think we are, so much is still based on interpretation of the evidence and one can read it more than one way.

My choice is to respect everyone's RIGHT to believe as they CHOOSE as human beings. The moment we sacrifice that right for another, we throw our own away as well.

Cheers

reply to post by Khedwulf


I greatly empathize with your current family predicament. And I hope that you find some type of relationship with your family that is strong despite the differences between your modes of thought. I personally am not one of the "indoctrinated" (though I think you might be using that term a bit to loosely---however its use does have some merits when describing societies preconceived conceptions and the collective willingness to believe them to be true despite all the evidence contrary).

I would suggest that by selecting Atheism as your new perspective on looking at life, you might have "over corrected" a bit.You see, the doctrine of science and the principals of scientific method do so well at discovering the truth of reality, not because of the inherent flawlessness of the doctrine. Rather, it does so well, because it avoids making assumptions ( though not always successfully) and relying on old traditions to form coherent explanations about the reality we live in. As an agnostic (with no spiritual or religious beliefs of my own) I am very uncomfortable with Atheism instant dismal of God or even a "spirit-consciousness". Not because I believe in them of course, but because I believe there hasn't been enough conclusive evidence to to dismiss this notion as of yet. Our cosmos could be indeed conscious and "God-like", but maybe not.

I think agnosticism with a healthy respect for the scientific method is where any reasonable belief would be inclined to land. But we all have our different experiences and perspectives. I could be just as wrong. Anyway, I just wanted to comment and expand on your thoughts. Interesting post

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by Khedwulf

 

We often like to use terms like 'indoctrination' to tag those with whom we disagree. It not only gives our opposing opinion some self-perceived foundation, but it superficially strips away the same from our chosen opponents.

Personally, I cannot buy the current scheme of evolution because I find it riddled with holes. On the flip, creation is just one gigantic hole but... there is a difference between faith and science and approaching them the same is an invitation to failure.

Be it science or faith, people CHOOSE their beliefs. In fact, science is itself a form of faith because even as smart as we are... or like to think we are, so much is still based on interpretation of the evidence and one can read it more than one way.

My choice is to respect everyone's RIGHT to believe as they CHOOSE as human beings. The moment we sacrifice that right for another, we throw our own away as well.

Cheers

Took the words, directly, out of my mouth.

One way or another, you're choosing to believe an institution made up of men. There are enormous holes in both creationism and evolution. Truth of the matter is, we're only faced with two possible interpretations of the origins of life, take your pick. Just like the two sided face we deal with in politics. Who knows what could be discovered a hundred years from now, or even tomorrow, that could completely change our interpretations of evidence.

Peace.

The word God defined

Ask most Christians to define the word "God" and most will tell you that it is the name of the Almighty Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Some would also reply to you that this title also refers to Jesus, the one they refer to as the son of God. Some Christians would say that both the Almighty Father Creator, and the Son of the Father (Jesus) are both God. Ask a Muslim or most any other man or woman of a different religion from Christianity, and they will reply in a similar manner, except that most would exclude Jesus from the title of God. Is this entity, the one that most people refer to as their God, the same God regardless of one's Race, color or religion?

All those whose religion is Islam (Arabs and others) make their prayer and petitions to the entity with the title God, the same title as a Christian would use. So who or what do we refer to when we use the term God?

Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.

In the Greek, the word God is a translation of the word "Theos" meaning Mighty One. This can refer to any person, man or in some cases non-man. The context determines the meaning. Assuming the word always refers to a non-man is error, as the Greek referred to many with authority as "Theos" (Mighty One).

The word "God (or god)" is a title, translating the Hebrew Elohim (or elohim), El (or el), and Eloah, meaning strength, powerful one(s). However, it is often incorrectly used as a substitute for the Tetragrammaton (YHVH). YAHWEH, or the more accurate YAHUWEH pronounced YAH-OO-AY. Yahweh is the proper personal name of the Creator. Where Elohim is the Hebrew word with the English meaning of "Mighty One(s)" the Greek word with the English meaning of Mighty One is "Theos." Neither word can be directly related or assumed to be equal to the name Yahweh, the Almighty Creator, because this would be error. See the "word" God

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, GOD is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies, and various kinds of idols. The word "god" on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being, but this is error. The correct personal proper name of the One Supreme Being is Yahweh. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin of the word God, is Teutonic paganism.

In Indo-Germanic dictionaries, only one word resembles "god." It is ghodh and is pronounced the same. This word means union, also sexual union or mating. According to Luneburger Wörterbuch, the following are the same word: Gott, got, gode, gade, god and guth (gud). True Believers should never use the word 'God', when referring to Yahshua, Yahweh, or El Elyon.

However, assuming the term God is strictly defined as Mighty One, or Powerful One, a substitute word for the Hebrew "Elohim," and for the Greek word "Theos," then we can agree that "The Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade, believes that the Almighty Creator of all things whose proper name is YHWH (Yahweh) can be referred to as Mighty One (God). We can equally state, that Yahshua (J_sus) is also a Mighty One, who has been given great power "from Yahweh," therefor Yahshua is also a God (a mighty one). However, is Yahshua the same God as is Yahweh? Or are both a part of an equal God-head or Trinity? The answer is clearly No.

There are many definitions of the word " God" . Depending on which definition you use. It could be an alien. It could be a very intelligent person that led a community. It could be the one creator. Jesus said " I will always be with you, look into your mind and i will be there" or something to that effect. Maybe " God " is inside us all.

reply to post by Khedwulf


I would suggest that you remain true to yourself, and simply exercise tolerance with those in your life who can't or won't understand.

After all, your parents love you. From their perspective in their faith, they are trying to help you. That's a sweet thing and you can gracefully accept that, and then go about continuing to explore your own beliefs.

I don't recommend back sliding into a position you felt you'd liberated yourself from in the first place. You would be doing a disservice not only to yourself, but your family to. Honesty is the best policy, and when honesty hurts, we can choose to skirt around those topics that distress loved ones so much. To help lessen and minimize their pain.

I learned that the hard way with my in-laws.

Peace,
Cirque

Why few people choose to overcome indoctrination? Money and /or that familiar comfort zone is hard to leave. Look at it this way, if there is a Christian God I'm sure she doesn't want you to live a lie. Your taking the high rode dude. Also, many things Christian folks believe are not even in the bible and/or misinterpreted. I call them Christian myths. For example, in Genesis it says God created the Earth. And we think planet Earth. But is that what it meant in the bible? Maybe 'earth' just meant land that humans and animals live on. And as such, that would include other planets. OMG, see how that works? With a free mind you can see such things. Also, I think that whole creation vs evolution thing is a bunch of extremist hype. Why can't evolution be creation in motion? Well it can. God could have created man by setting things in motion. Now I don't believe that, or God, but I'm not so closed minded to think about it all. In fact, one interesting thing about that Genius creation story is it is in line with science. Think about it. There was darkness, then light, the heavens, water, earth, animals, and us. I have looked at some other creation stories and they don't even come close to science. Stuff like a God killed his son and the mother cried and that became the oceans. My point being, as with most anything, the bible still has some interesting stuff, just treat it for what it is. A book written by men who thought they were inspired by God. And maybe they were, that creation story turned out to be pretty spot on. But if we don't know, then we don't know. It's best not to lie about such things. That would be second guessing God's will for us, if there is a God, lol. Enjoy your new freedom and welcome to ATS, I'm new here too.

Hey Khedwulf, it's me againagain. So was I thinking, maybe you could try a non-Mormon church as a decoy of sorts. I know my atheist friends would not suggest this, but that may be the way of getting out without making your family feel so sad. As I understand Mormons, they believe all Christians go to heaven, just that Mormons go to some higher plain of heaven. So if you join another church they may feel a little bad, but they can still believe your going to heaven. And later if you decide to ditch church, how will they know? If they can't handle the truth I don't think a little white lie would hurt. Don't they prefer such lies over truth? Just don't lie to yourself that way. You could even join an online Christian church to make things real easy. Tell them you don't know how or why, but God wants you to go to another church and be done with it. Just an idea. Could be a win win. Maybe you could follow the lead from an ex-Mormon that pulled such a thing off. Give it some thought and keep us posted.

reply to post by Khedwulf


Hold up. I wasn't raised Mormon, nor do I claim to understand it's teachings or beliefs, but I thought Mormons saw "God" as a being that used to be human and just like us.

www.mrm.org...

God the Father According to Mormonism

The Mormon doctrine of God is not the same as the historic Christian view. It holds that God and man are essentially of the same species, and that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. He is not uniquely self-existent, transcendent, or eternal. Neither is he truly the creator of all things, for he is one among potentially billions of Gods, and does not even have the ability to create matter. As BYU professor David Paulson once put it, "God does not have absolute power... but rather the power to maximally utilize natural laws to bring about His purposes."

The traditional Mormon view of God is summed up by the famous Lorenzo Snow couplet, "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." The historic understanding of this strongly implies that God the Father was once a sinner, and that we ourselves may model our mortal experience unto godhood after the mortal experience he once participated in. In his famous "King Follett Discourse" Joseph Smith taught,

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... [Y]ou have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..."

I don't understand why the theory of evolution would be so resisted by Mormons. Does your family agree with above citation?

Originally posted by redoubt

 

Be it science or faith, people CHOOSE their beliefs. In fact, science is itself a form of faith because even as smart as we are... or like to think we are, so much is still based on interpretation of the evidence and one can read it more than one way.

I agree with you, and good job OP, for stimulating many well thought-out ideas here. Let me ask if we really "choose" beliefs though, when the vast majority in the world take over the belief system of their parents or their upbringing. Is this phenomenon, that we "inherit" religious beliefs over many generations, something similar to hypnosis? Because as children we are all easily suggestible and "indcotrinatable" and the consistency of this phenomenon suggests that there is a mechanism that is difficult for us to overcome.

By "mechanism" I mean a psychological mechanism like rationalization, rationalization, repression, sublimation, or the kind that allows hypnosis to work.

Today's generation is indoctrinated to believe in something only if evidence is available. What is the hidden danger in this? Wicked men could state that alien life is real, for example. They could create all kinds of signs and wonders - lights in the sky, "abductions" etc . They could even land a deeply classified spacecraft on the lawn of the White House and have a genetically modified man step out and speak to the world. How would you ever know that it's a complete fabrication? You wouldn't would you? Without absolute truth, you would be glued to the tv watching it unfold and never be able to detect that your senses are indeed, confirming a lie as truth.

Whilst you now view your prior religion as indoctrination, you can't see the indoctrination that you've swapped it for. Religion is indoctrination, but belief in God is not for it is He alone that grants the faith to believe. When Jesus stated "Blessed are those who believe without seeing", what warning is implicit when we know that false signs and wonders are used in these last days of the age? Who are primed to accept them as evidence of lies being sold to the world as truths? 1)Anyone who does not have absolute Truth 2) anyone indoctrinated in rationalism and experientialism who perceives truth through their senses and 3) anyone who wants and desires the lie to be true.

The serpent appealed to desires and thus the fruit was "perceived" as good. Once this happened, the lie "thou shalt not die" was believed as her truth. Did they not reject the truth for a lie based upon what and how she perceived? The senses and desires led to confirmation of the lie being truth.

This is a caution for all of us. We so trust our teachers and leaders that we never stop to ask or think about possible ulterior motives. As in the days of Judea, the teachers and leaders kept their converts from salvation because they had rejected it themselves. This is entirely prophetic for these days. Our Creator is merciful, man rarely is. So please consider your reasoning...you have that big list of "evidences" for the theory of evolution, but yet nothing is evolving around you, is it? We see huge canyons forming in a short time span, but yet, the Grand Canyon is "proof" of the millions of years needed for this earth? The theory of evolution needs hundreds and hundreds of millions of years to be true, so they've simply given you "proof". Every time that you see a photo of it, it reinforces the supposed age. It reinforces the lie as truth. Wicked man will blow up buildings, kill people, and hypnotise the masses - so he is certainly capable of lying to you. In which case, don't you think that there is only One who shares the Truth? Of course there is.

Reject your religion by all means but to reject your Creator is an entirely different undertaking. If He has not granted you belief, pray for it - seek Him earnestly with a humbled heart.

We have merely two choices; put your trust in man or your Creator. And right now, despite obvious proof in front of us all that men can be and are desperately wicked, we keep on the path that men want us to stay on. Why?

Originally posted by WhoKnows100

 

Today's generation is indoctrinated to believe in something only if evidence is available. What is the hidden danger in this? Wicked men could state that alien life is real, for example.

We have merely two choices; put your trust in man or your Creator.

That is not a danger because if there is evidence then there is evidence. It is more a problem when people believe even though there is NO evidence.

When the creator comes and talks to me I will decide what I think about it. Until then I only have what other men/women say.

I really don't know why religious people bother arguing, its faith, nothing more. If you talk logic, you will lose.

reply to post by redoubt


Best way to live is with a personal god, as long as it is not preached or convert people. Science and Faith can co-exist, but the problem is religious side want to make science into a faith, thus getting it out of classrooms.

its kinda like "Hey if creationism can't be taught, we are not letting science have their way"

Science explains what is going on in the world, it will disprove thing along its way... arguing against it is just silly unless you can prove, which you can't because faith does not require/need evidence.

Science and religious people arguing is like explaining how thunder and lighting works to someone 3000 years ago with 3000yrs old technology..

hmmm. I wonder how many of these Evolution vs Creationism thread there are on ATS alone. When you are in the process of writing a thread that has been written thousands of times on a debate that has been ongoing for over 100 years, at what point do you determine someone is indoctrinated?