Religious people: Do you believe in magic?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So witchcraft and the like must then be seen as actual real things in judism/Christianity/islam to begin with...then forbid it.
Meaning, you must believe in magic first, then deny it.

No, this does not follow at all.
For people who believe that magic is not real, that is a very good reason for forbidding attempts to use it.

Let me use an analogy;
If you announce your intention to fly from one skyscaper from another by flapping your arms, the authorities will probably forbid the attempt.
Not because they believe it can be done, but precisely because they believe it can't be done.

Forbidding people to use magic does not involve believing that magic works.
It just involves believing there are people who think it works, and telling them to give up trying.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

God's natural isn't magical, no. But can God, as a supernatural being, do something that appears to be magic? As I said earlier, yes, but I fail to see any reasonable reason for such a deception.

"God" created "Satan", the so-called king of deception.

As one would imagine, my perception of Satan is not the cookie-cutter version that people seem to assume every Christian believes. However, as that has nothing to do with magic, it's not really on-topic here.

reply to post by adjensen


It's actually very on-topic. You questioned the necessity of magic in "God"s line of work, equating it with deception. I showed you that deception is Biblically an intrinsic part of how he works (harrumph) and that says magic could very well be one of his favorite tools.

Very much on-topic.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's actually very on-topic. You questioned the necessity of magic in "God"s line of work, equating it with deception. I showed you that deception is Biblically an intrinsic part of how he works (harrumph) and that says magic could very well be one of his favorite tools.

I think what you're saying is equivalent to Creationists saying "Satan put dinosaur bones in the Earth to deceive people," which I think is beyond idiotic. Could that be the case? Sure, why not? Is there any compelling reason to think that is the case? Absolutely not.

I didn't "question the necessity of magic", I questioned the sense of it.

reply to post by adjensen

I didn't "question the necessity of magic", I questioned the sense of it.

In that case, you have a lot of questions ahead of you...

Although magic seems as good an answer as any. At least, for the subject at hand.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

God's natural isn't magical, no. But can God, as a supernatural being, do something that appears to be magic? As I said earlier, yes, but I fail to see any reasonable reason for such a deception.

"God" created "Satan", the so-called king of deception. I don't think what you "see" is relevant, as per the thousands of unanswered prayers in addition to continued temptation and seduction by the lord of the underworld.

No need for deception indeed.

Which God, the earthly one? the One that inserted itself into this 3D experience because it had fallen in vibration? You realise the manager of this Universe was supposed to be 'strickly off limits' matter wise as to manipulating it and its content and variations (just could not help itself to the varieties of the free buffet). God created All, and in so doing was perfectly able to convince itself that it could defy RULES givin it by ITS OWN CREATOR. It decided to experience its creations up close and personal whether lower in frequency or equal to its own. A Playground of infinite possiblities it could twist modify or change; the saddness here is that it was never meant to be a progression of GOODNESS or furthering of the specie human. It became a massive negative feeding frenzy. "My success hinges upon your Ignorance to fix this" Origin to its human counterpart Feb 2012.

I believe there are fundamental laws of reality that would allow for someone to manipulate spiritual powers into doing things that seemingly break the laws of order we see as ruling the way things typically occur. So I believe that magic is possible but it wouldn't be of a Harry Potter variety, or the Exorcist, or paranormal for that matter. But there are powers that someone can tap into in order to be given abilities (I wouldn't say powers) that normally man cannot access.

Weren't we told of this and how profound it is, that the bible shows us how adversaries will strike? With deception of course and that deception is even confirmed by the deceivers.
It's their MO
Pray for your soul

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Your two Biblical quotations are both criticising the practice of magic.

I suggest that you go to "The Golden Bough", by the anthropologist Sir James Frazer, and look up his fourth chapter, entitled "Magic and Religion".
You will see him explaining that there is a "radical conflict of principle" between Magic and Religion.

To paraphrase, the difference is this;
The believer in Religion believes the universe is run by conscious powers higher than himself.
The believer in Magic believes that the world is run by a set of rules which the human operator can learn to manipulate. In that respect, it resembles a primitive version of science.

The believer in Magic says "If I follow the right procedure, I can make it rain"
The believer in Religion says "If I ask X nicely, then X might make it rain".

That is why the Bible criticises magic.

edit on 22-2-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Let me help you Disrael, I don't believe in Magic, I believe in God. I believe in Love. Love will overcome all this crap people keep complaining about. There is more variables than you listed, but thanks for your opinion.

reply to post by Jodlum66

Never, at any time, did I suggest that those were the only two variables.

But since "Magic" and "Religion" were being brought together in the OP, I quoted an opinion about the distinction between them.

Those two items were the subject of the discussion. so I limited my discussion to those two items, which was a rational and legitimate thing to do.

Some people think that Jesus used white magic but to be sure of this we would have to have been their to see it so I call hoax. But who really knows what is to be true dealing with history.

As a Christian, do I believe in magic? Yes.

However, I believe the Bible tells us not to practice such things for a few reasons.

First, magic is performed by invoking spirits. If the Bible tells us not to invoke spirits then we can assume that any magic that comes from invoking them is not God's will and is the work of fallen angels, demons, etc.

Second, humans being of a fallen nature themselves, would most likely use magic for evil as opposed to good since they are probably being led by fallen spirits to commit such acts in the first place.

Third, the acts of magic/signs/miracles that we see being performed by Moses (through God) to counter the Egyptians in the Old Testament was proof that such magic only creates a power struggle between God and lower spirits. I believe there is some truth to the books of Enoch. In the beginning, I believe that God used angels to help lead kings and rulers of nations only to have those angels teach the leaders and their people "secrets and magik" which led to the people worshiping these angels and kings instead of God for their abilities. Thus, leading to "fallen angels". I believe this is the main reason why magic is prohibited and why we don't see people being able to perform such extensive acts of magic today.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Great thread topic SaturnFX!

However, I think that we first need to define magic.

This definition is mundane and leaves much unsaid, when i comes to what magic really is.

mag·ic /ˈmajik/ Noun The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. Adjective Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".

We know today that magicians use trickery, distraction and slight of hand, as well as technology to make an audience believe the trick. Perhaps Moses just had better tricks that the Pharaoh's magicians were unable to reproduce, but we don't know that any of it was caused by a supernatural being, breaking the laws of nature.

Alister Crowely's definition is a much better definition, in my opinion.

The British occultist Aleister Crowley chose the spelling to differentiate the occult from stage magic and defined it as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will", including both "mundane" acts of will as well as ritual magic. Crowley wrote that "it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature".
en.wikipedia.org...

So if magic is using ones will to cause a change in inert matter, then, by this definition, we use magic everyday. I am using magic to convey my will for you to understand my thoughts, my magical tool is my computer. A surgeon uses magic to heal his patients, his tool may be a scappel.

We use magic to fly, these days. Magic to talk to people in present time, at great distances.

Jesus used magic, forbidden by the law, to speak to the dead, heal the sick, change water into wine, etc. So, if Jesus did these things, as was supposedly an example for us to emulate, we can also use magic without worry of condemnation. The only condemnation that should be associated with magic, placing ones will over the natural world to effect a change, is whether or not that change harms or helps all those effected.

As far as magic being used by God to change the outcome of his original "spell" of creation, I don't believe that God would go outside the laws, he supposedly created, to influence a change, but would utilize those laws that are already in place.

Hamlet: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.