More laws = More problems

Let's start with hypothetical gun control laws. Criminals don't own registered weapons (for the most part). They own stolen ones. The only people who could be disarmed by the government are people who aren't criminals, with registered weapons. A gun disarmament would be very unwise.

This isn't a gun control thread.

Let's move on to another law. What about drugs. Since drugs have been outlawed by our overlords, a whole underground market emerged in defiance to it. A significant percentage of motives of murders are drug related. If the drug market was not underground, there would be none of this. The reasons are complicated, but obvious.

I just saw a thread titled something along the lines of, "checkpoints and license checks..." The people who come up with these ideas are either not very forward thinking people or are very forward thinking and they desire the inevitable negative consequences of their actions. Because license checks are just going to create a whole new set of crimes. People want to be free. We don't care about laws if it is in the way of our desires. So what's the point in laws anyway? They aren't stopping human nature. They only create the appearance that they are solving problems. I'll tell you what will happen if license checks and road blocks start popping up. Identity theft will increase significantly. Identity theft experts will emerge and stealing someone's identity will be a phone call away. It will be easier because the demand will be higher. Then, your identity which originally was acquired to circumvent police checkpoints will be used for other things. A long list of problems that you don't want. Even a long list of problems that won't effect you, like the underage purchasing of alcohol, for example. Not that I'm against that.

It is self defeating to the government. Every law they make requires other laws to be made in reaction to the problems caused by the first.

Laws create all kinds of problems across a wide range of areas including political, social, economic, psychological, and more. The madness can't go on forever. Something will give.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Laws attempting to legislate "morality" do not work. Laws establishing punishment for societal crimes at least let you know what you are up against.

You're entirely right.

A page in some book in a lawyer's office isn't going to change anything, for better or worse.

The human capacity for choice tends to throw a wrench in the cogs of lawmakers and police, only allowing them to act from a reactive standpoint.

The only way to truly change something with a law is to have complete control over the lives and actions of those the law intends to change, and is that even a worthy ideal?

Education and free market opportunities are far more effective and civilized ways to accomplish change in society.

When deciding which laws to enact in a country (if you had the choice) from where would the knowledge of right and wrong come?

I don't believe there should be any laws, but I don't really think that would ever work. There must be a middle ground somewhere, and I think the first step in laying the groundwork for new and better laws would be to make sure that the knowledge which is backing them is true and correct.

I agree with you mostly. More laws = more criminals out of the unknowing.

Think of it like this. Congress and the state pass laws upon laws to be upheld by the LEO (which many don't even know what the laws are that they are supposed to be enforcing because there are so many of them) and then once you are getting tried at a court, if it is serious enough, they have their lawyers dig up something to try to take away your freedoms for something that you had no prior knowledge of being 'illegal'. My point being that I agree that there are so many laws that the layperson doesn't even know exist and doesn't even care to acknowledge because most of them are victimless in the first place and only serve in getting money from you they can't get from taxes.

With more people comes less responsibility, it should be contrary to that.
People are just too preoccupied with trying to live their lives the way they want without having to worry how the gubmint wants you to live.

My friend was taken to jail for having an invalid DL which she wasn't even aware of it being invalid. She only spent a few hours in a large county lockup with a dozen or so (some not so civilized) detainees but still had to surrender her rights to the state for that time period. It turns out their computer systems had the wrong information because the clerks gave her the wrong paperwork when filling out her change of address for ID.

I'm no law student but the way I see things at the moment there is no turning back from the system totally eating itself.

Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

How is that just? Are we talking confirmed (convicted and in prison) or suspected?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

You've just introduced more laws, I thought they just cause more problems?

Originally posted by randomtangentsrme

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

How is that just? Are we talking confirmed (convicted and in prison) or suspected?

It might not be just. But that's what's scary about it. People would be a lot more respectful. For fear of death. And if you don't fear death in this scenario, you're a fool. Then there'd just be one less fool around. Eventually, the initial chaos would subside. There is a push towards order. That manifested originally, in our world, as the emergence of a government.

A government takes away your sovereignty and independence. People are alive who aren't confident that they could be survive without a government. And that's the source of the governments power.

But I disagree with this belief. I believe the individuals can individually and cooperatively bring the world into order without regulations. Fear and love are both great at keeping us on the straight and narrow path. Unfortunately the government uses fear and love to keep us on their path rather than the natural path. Human sovereignty, independence, self trust, and an overall appreciation and respect for life.

And if the disrespectful, offensive, and oppressive are dead... Then the Earth is healed. Right?

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

You've just introduced more laws, I thought they just cause more problems?

These aren't laws. These are the absence of laws. This is freedom. The absence of restriction. Please ignore and don't be confuse by the word, "legally" I used in that reply.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by SpearMint
Do you really think there would be less problems if we were allowed to kill and rape?

Some laws = More problems. Although I think that is rarely the case, it also depends on how the law is enforced.

Think about it like this. A rapist can be legally killed by anyone. A killer can also be killed by anyone. People would murder and rape less because they would be more afraid to.

You've just introduced more laws, I thought they just cause more problems?

These aren't laws. These are the absence of laws. This is freedom. The absence of restriction. Please ignore and don't be confuse by the word, "legally" I used in that reply.

But for your rapist/murderer theory to make sense there would have to be other laws in place, I.E don't kill or rape. Otherwise anyone could kill whoever they want anyway, which negates the consequence of the murderer/rapist being killed. It would be chaos. There has to be laws.

I agree that laws are certainly an issue in some countries. For example:

The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population), Russia has the second highest rate (577 per 100,000), followed by Rwanda (561 per 100,000).[8] As of year-end 2009 the USA rate was 743 adults incarcerated in prisons and jails per 100,000 population.[4][8] At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[29] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[9]

Source

I don't believe more laws necessarily means more problems at all. Too many laws means too many people being imprisoned for stupid reasons.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
This is freedom. The absence of restriction.

Disagree.

Some laws protect our freedom as dumb as that sounds. People should have freedom to live, freedom to express, and freedom of opinion. If I kill you for being wrong, I've just taken those freedoms. There are at very least a small number of laws required to actually maintain freedom.

In your example of the world where 'true' freedom is given, an aggressive group would arise and declare the new status quo. Imagine for example, if a large group of people decided Christians should all be put to death. Their very existence would create a new government over time.

Fear of death tends to create desire for protection which encourages creation of groups which become governments. Fear of death certainly hasn't been proven as a reliable way to prevent crime.

reply to post by ZeroReady


That "middle ground" is no harm no foul.

In the absence of damage to person or property there is no crime. And no, damage to self doesnt count. You are your own property and can damage yourself any way you want.

It really is that simple.

The trouble is we've created an infinite amount of pre-crime in a pitiful attempt to prevent that damage to person or property from ever taking place and in doing so we've established a self perpetuating monster that wont be sated until every last human being is under 24/7 surveillance or chained naked to a floor for their own good.