Musing on the Alien/Dimensional/Spiritual conundrum.

Okay, so I'm going to throw the current musings I have been chewing over - bearing in mind that this is in the nature of presenting some ideas, in the hope that I can find some equally open minded beings (human or other), to bounce off and brain storm, or chew over in the kind of a way you might discuss something sitting in some chairs over a coffee, with friendly interest. ? Keen? Read on...

I have read myself through quite the pile of Spiritual, ufo, consipiracy and Star People ancedotal stories and hearsays, which I all consider in the Court of the Azurecara, to be interesting enough to address.

#1 Ancient Alien theory. I have come to believe this idea has quite a bit of merit - based largely on it making a simple logical sense. Countless indigenous cultures have folklore, and oral history that largely indicates other worldly contact - not so much as having randomly began happening, but as been accredited to the birthplace of their people. "Ancestors" is the title they are afforded, as their Elders advise them "We come from the Stars". (ENCOUNTERS WITH STAR PEOPLE: Untold Stories of American Indians, by Ardy Sixkiller Clarke).

#2 Close Encounters. I could not count how many ancedotal articles, books, newspaper reports and odd offbeat stories and documentaries that have testified to strange unidentified craft being witnessed by masses of people. A significant portion of those that have come forward to report of their experiences, have further shared that they have had contact with non-human intelligences. When further asked, How? Why? Where? We get a variety of answers, some as bland as "to keep an eye on us", some "to save our planet", some to "save their own kind". Based on what I have read, I have to suggest there are a variety of 'beings' reported. Each with their own agenda.

#3 Mental Manipulation. Many of those reporting encounters go on to explain that communication was done largely via mental telepathy. Not only that, but that memory is tampered with, and beings can appear to shape-change. Paralyzing and rendering people unconscious. Most people beginning to remember their encounters, initially believe their experiences to be a series of repeating bad dreams, and there is still a dream like quality to their encounters. It also creates a huge loss of credibility, and can severely affect the mental processing of the experiences.

#4 Several reports speak of expressing religious doctrine to cease, halt or gain some measure of control back during their encounters. This plays in my head as something interesting in itself. Christianity speaks of non-human beings, i.e. Angels, and Demons, (and even talking snakes who teach us that eating apples is just plain wrong). However, there are other religions that speak of non-human beings, in the form of evil vs good.

#5 Legends and folklore all have their say of non-human intelligences, or beings. Paranormal tales are rife with strange examples of 'ghostly hauntings', and almost bizarre instances of time and space bending and behaving oddly. However, it can be said with certainty, odd encounters and experiences have been recorded by hundreds of thousands of people.


Okay, not buying it? Well this is a theoretical discussion ... I am telling you of what I have read - and for this discussion the bias is towards taking the body of information as a premise of possible happenings, and come up with an ideas as a whole.

Here is where I'm leaning towards At Present - until better or different ideas occur to me.

The spiritual philosophies I have read all speak of a realm beyond this physical life, that we ascend to - speaking of a higher vibrational rate of existence. And with the combination effects of the reported technology in use, and their ability to manipulate matter and mind at apparent Will (with rare exceptions), could it be therefore suggested that there are beings who can transverse between dimensions of physicality and the hereafter? If our transition beyond death is merely a change in the state of energy, and the 'invisible' dimension is exactly in the same physical space as this one, just vibrating at a different rate of knots to be thus rendered transparent to our physical senses? (most of them).

And if we take that as an idea, why not also that this 'dimension' be accessible to beings with advanced or superior technology to ours?

Also... other throw away ideas. Harmonics and Electro-Magnetic Technologies have been bandied about more than just a time or two in reference to non-human contact with the ufo pilots. If the other 'dimension' was more to do with vibrational energy rates, would not harmonic technology play a great part in disrupting dense physical matter to remove obstacle? Would a person's Bio-Electric-Magnetic Field play a huge part in the ability to manipulate us physically?

Okay, thank you for reading through my ramblings. If you have any alternate or different angles you might want to throw a curve ball in, please do. It's difficult to find similarly read people to bounce off possibilities with in my neck of suburbia.

Cheers!

The missing piece to your puzzle is deception.

Vallee, John Keel, Hynek, and others have made it VERY clear that deception is the key to understanding this.

This deception is so massive that very few understand what is really going on.

You ARE on the right track, do NOT listen to those who say otherwise.

“UFOs are real but they are not physical. They are messengers of deception”Jacques Vallee

The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. (John Keel - Operation Trojan Horse p. 266)

Forbidden Secret - www.scribd.com...

"We got a coverup among the researchers themselves that people are relying on for the truth" ~ Joe Jordan

I recommend the below researchers:

Dr. L. A. Marzulli (See here)
Joe Jordan (CE4 Research Group)
Guy Malone (alienresistance.org)
David Ruffino (delusionresistance.org)

The below video of Joe Jordan has some excellent info around the 50 min. point:

"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships." - Arthur C. Clarke

"We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth." - Brad Steiger

"I personally believe that the reptilian stuff is actually the demonic at work" Svali

I initially ignored the Vallee/Hynek Interdimensional Hypothesis in lieu of E.T.

However, if we include all aspects of the UFO phenomena--including the close encounters--then there is no other theory extant that explains and demonstrates the nature of these "beings" so thoroughly.

It's the Occam answer. Either that or "they" don't exist at all except in our mind.

"those little stinking, lying buggers ARE demons..." ~ "The GUT"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by azurecara


The next plane is more suited to the soul than the physical vessel. The purpose of being here is two fold - learn to handle stimuli appropriately, and learn how our creative energy impacts everything around us.

From personal experience I have concluded most of this is in fact interdimensional or trans dimensional. Some of this is gleaned from experiences with my wife. I try and not to listen or at least completely buy into others ideas so as to find my own answers.

brain storm

Countless indigenous cultures have folklore,
contact with non-human intelligences.

The spiritual philosophies a higher vibrational rate of existence.

And if we take that as an idea, why not also that this 'dimension' be accessible to beings with advanced or superior technology to ours?


hi, thanks for the good read,,
i believe that, many ancient cultures did know about these other plains of existence,
and that for example the olmec used sacred plants as a source of wisdom,
and that their whole civilization, revolved around the ritual usage of hallucinogenics, this may sound absurd, but allmost every stone stelae and pictoglyph found in south america,
depicts some sort of flora that contain these alkaloids,,

Hi! I, too, have trouble finding someone who can listen to me ramble so I'm gonna bounce off of your ideas.
To make things easier I'm gonna address each item you brought up. Most of these things I have not experienced but I do have some ideas about.
Here I go!
1. Ancient Alien Theory: I believe in it. Not only do I believe in it I believe we were all part of it. The energy of those old souls could not have been extinguished. Either they are still here in another dimension, waiting for a chance to slip into ours in order to have a physical body, or they are us, trying to return to that dimension. Either way there is no way they just 'poof' vanished. Energy has to go someplace. It has purpose and meaning. What happens when energy is released? It re-purposes itself. If we are to believe that ancient aliens existed then who were they? They may have been us...sent to the past to be assured of our future. Or we may have been visited by them and our dimension was ripped from us. This would actually explain why there are so many wonders on Earth that we can't explain for. It would also explain why we can't remember who we are as we have to go through a dark electronic void in order to get to another dimension level. Memories however are encoded in DNA. We are just starting to know this as a scientific fact that a whole universe can be within each of us, stored in our DNA. Maybe soon we will all know who we really are as the dimensions have become meshed together as of late. Here's the link about what we've learned about storing DNA: www.gizmag.com...
2. Close Encounters: See I want to believe. When I was younger I used to believe. I asked to be taken away, telling my parents even, that I wasn't from this world. But the encounter never came. I got older, my belief fading with each passing year of nothing happening. Now I'm a skeptic who looks back and asks, “Why not me?” I was ready. I had the desire. I was sure that I had come from somewhere out there. So why not me? Now that I have little ones I wouldn't go anywheres, anyway. But I would still like an answer. Nobody I know has ever had an encounter. Not even a glimpse. Still I believe there must be something else out there because if humanity is all there is to the universe than it's definitely in trouble. We have much to learn from the simplicity that the other biological life on this planet has shown us.
3. Mental Manipulation: Well we don't need an alien to give us this. All we need are the 13 ruling families who control us here on Earth to show us this. They control what you eat, what you watch and hear, and pretty soon, what you say to the world. They thrive off of this control. They need it, almost, to survive. If we were to have some kind of spiritual awakening that affected us on a global level that killed our desire for material things they wouldn't last very long. They have subliminals that are in the music and shows that you watch on your HDTV. They feed you chemicals in your water and food to keep you docile. We don't need aliens to come down to Earth to trick our minds...we actually need them to come save us from the nuts that are already doing it to us. I think the people that are being abducted and cruelly examined are probably lab specimens by our fellow man for the ones in power. They have the technology from the alien leftovers found all around the world in ancient sites and also ones that have dimensionally shifted into our vibrational plane. This I don't doubt for one minute.
4. I think what you're trying to say here is that prayer works. And you're right. It does. There is a reason for this. Simple belief causes one to manifest. If you believe that a cross will have a vampire go running, it will. Will of prayer can be a powerful thing. I believe that there is a creator. That we have free will because it was allowed. That we are the co-creator of our own existence. Every bad day can be turned around. Every bad life can be good. Most of us are so busy watching the worries of the world on TV, Facebooking our woes (and reading of others' troubles too), and working for a living long enough to throw open the window and scream, “I'm not gonna take this anymore! I don't need this anymore! I'm worry-free! I have no debt! I have no troubles! I have love and happiness! I have everything I need!” Most people DON'T believe in those things, thereby they don't have them. Let me give you an ancedote of my own. My father hates driving at dusk or night. Absolutely hates it. He recently had to drive me to work a month back. It was dusk. It was lightly wet from earlier rain. He was moaning about accidents when we were getting ready. He was moaning about driving and having an accident when we got in the car. Wouldn't you know it? Seven minutes of driving was all it took for him to find us in an accident. He willed it. He just put so much power into it that

4. he conjured it up outta nowhere. He literally said, “She came outta nowhere.” And so she did. If I hadn't looked up from my text to yell who knows. Maybe I wouldn't have been around to tell you this tale.
5. Hmmmm....hauntings. This is another thing I used to believe it but try very, very hard to NOT believe in now. Hauntings are dimensional rifts where things from a higher or lower vibration can filter through due to manifestation of belief. Most people who don't believe in ghosts never see them. When they do it's because an idea of it happening has been drilled into them. Probably from subliminals. I used to see a lot of strange things happening. I don't anymore because I don't wish too, as I did then. Maybe if I had understood such things as dimensional rifts, manifestation, and space/time as much then as I do know maybe I would have been swept away in a mothership a long time ago. As it is I think I'd like to stick around for awhile more...watch my kids grow up and maybe have a grandchild someday before I venture off into that unknown void known as death.


It was fun sharing my thoughts with you. And I enjoyed reading yours too.

I wrote so much it didn't fit in one box! Sorry!

reply to post by azurecara


azurecara, you have compiled some interesting data. It shows you have been observing some of the more outta box conspiracy theories and have tied them together.

To 1 it basically comes down to the normal/paranormal connections of CREATOR Creations and how they interact-develop and even perceive (each others realms) . And thru Experience some gain possible technologies or techniques in the fields of back and fourth between the normal and paranormal realms of "current understanding"

In example, its like considering that what are taught as NEPHILIM switching Frequencies into Raphiam. For when the were sent.... They were not destroyed just sent---> deludge fields ect. (after all was not their fault they were Created in the forms they were manifested into from CONTACT..) between living Flesh possessing CREATOR Creations (humans) and their Metaphysical attribute possessing parent(s) CREATOR Creations. Maybe why abbadon/Apollyon has access to exit/enter them depending on the pov.
Not speaking on ALL EXISTING CREATOR Creations just using for example the Nephilim/Raphiam frequency switch and how it somewhat potentially relates to the compiled data presented in this thread OP.

With this in current times if so and tec/ teqs so, then must keep in mind perspective barriers between (paranormal metaphysical /normal physical) Energies. For the normal on 1 side may be the paranormal on the other. Depending on location. also 1 thinks memory issues exist on both sides...

Interesting read 1 enjoyed

LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA*******
NAMASTE

Aside from my experiences, I heard something interesting the other day.
A white van man was overheard telling someone that he gets the chills when he has to deliver to Guys hospital. It turns out the lifts are random and the top floors have a strange atomosphere.
Apparentlyly he made a quip about aliens Doctors and said he caught a very wry smille from a Doctor paasing him in a lobby. He went on to say it was as if 'I had hit a nerve!'
... Just thought I'd mention it, although this is just hear say and nothing to do with me.

Our body and sensory organs are designed to function in the 3rd dimension, up and down, forward and backward, side to side. A 4th dimension interacts with the physical 3d world and that is time. The 5th dimension lays beyond the 4th, beyond time this is the astral world, where our soul goes when we die. Maybe the 5th is heaven and the 6th is hell, I dont know I have'nt been there yet.
Scientists are currently taking a serious look into multi dimensions to prove their existance, when they do it will be more of a rediscovery I think. I was recently reading Alister Crowleys Necronomicon that was published in the 1970's and the editor stated that a fellow researcher had E.T. contact while researching the manuscripts.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Okay, I have just sat through the entire youtube link - which is no small amount of time, mind you. But it is something I have come across in my readings prior to this thread.

I have found it intriguing, but what intrigues me is the WHY it would have an effect. So lets jump aboard the ship of "alien/ufo" phenomena is all inter-dimension beings with deception and illusion being their main weapons. With the ability to fabricate whatever reality your mind is willing or able to believe... And that's the key word here, in the theme of all of this deception. Belief.

Coming at this from what I call the Spooky-Nana (alternative spiritual or new age philosophies), angle is this. I have been told, and it does appear to work in supernatural eerie moments in my experience, that You have the power to control your own reality and your own experience of it. When it comes to the spiritual or arcane elements in life, most often you will only have an experience if you are open to that experience happening. That when you are experiencing anything that you do not wish to experience, you have the ultimate control to say - even just verbally, "No. Stop. I do not like it. I do not wish for this to happen. Cease and Desist your actions." That largely, those who hold absolutely no belief, or do not have a great desire to open any door to these types of encounters do not experience them.

My point, and I believe it is very valid here - is that none of those instructions come with a Christian precursor to them. There is no absolute necessity to believe in the Christian faith over and above all others. Merely that you believe that you have the authority to call Time Out. Whether your belief stems from a higher power, i.e. The power of Jesus Christ and his name, or the power of a deity, the essential point to it all was that you truly believed that you had the power.

My question then dwells on the very nature of the interaction. If we go to the corner of the think station that takes as writ, Alien Encounters are also Supernatural Entities with vast powers of deception, illusion, etc who have also been referred to as Demons. And if I bring to that party those spiritual beliefs and experiences on controlling your spiritual encounters, the theme then goes.

Asking for help - whether you label this Angels, God, Jesus, Spiritual Guides, or any other name in any language - so long as you are clear in your intent, it constitutes help received. Whether you use the form of prayer, a mental shout, or verbal instructions. You have the ability to ask for help, and receive help from Other benevolent entities who can assist you in a crisis, no matter the nature or shape of that crisis. (Yup. See Alien).

Spiritually I have learned that Intention counts. Positivity and putting your energy into that, counts in creating your own more peaceful life.

But the single most powerful force you have at your disposal, appears to be Belief/Faith. A thought, an idea, and an understanding are not the same thing as true belief.

In an almost related way I see this in everyday life. If you believe you can achieve something, than the impossible becomes the possible for you. No matter what the obstacles, if the belief is present, it is really only a matter of How. So if you are using that particular set of rules in an Alien Encounter setting... what is the true nature of the encounter - and does it come down to merely what you believe to be possible and true? What you can accept as true?

However, asking and receiving is another related thread. We ask for help in a crisis. We ask (without appearing to be aware of what we are doing) to experience something supernatural or other worldly - we ask to receive an experience, and thus we begin to notice something immediately. Synchronicity. The apparently unrelated everyday experiences that show us a theme (see the number 11:11 that people begin to see whenever they look at a clock for days in a row).

So, if I'm taking the premise that Aliens are Supernatural entities who are masters at creating illusions for us to believe and who are distracting us from the realization that we cannot be owned... where does that lead?

The question now becomes, how much 'truth' do I want to know...because if I'm taking that premise on the subject, then I begin to think on the old Fallen Angels got kicked out of one dimension because they were all sadface about the creation of mankind, and they are determined to get back in by waging war with the souls of mankind...


Essentially there appears to be a gigantic rabbit hole here, and whilst I'm busy munching on popcorn watching it all, I have to wonder (eternally it appears), on the whole Why?

Here's my take on what's been created from the religion spell.

Our thoughts build reality. A rocket ship, a boat, a computer all began as thoughts and through channel will, we have created from our thoughts to build the world we relate to. Will Power goes where your energy flows. The various religious franchises seek members to build upon their belief system to charge their reality with the support of it's member's energy. When people of these various beliefs have a near death experience they sometimes will journey to that realm associated with their religion.

These religions have carved out a space in the astral territories supported by the realities they have agreed upon. The deception is in your submission and spiritual dis-empowerment by adopting a belief which places a construct between you and your Divine Source. The deception is a well veiled trap.

reply to post by azurecara




Here is an interesting video with addresses the topic of this thread.

I hope you, and everyone else, can understand the points made in this video

reply to post by azurecara


I enjoyed very much reading your thoughts, and thank you for having shared such insights with us.

However, whilst reading through the responses to your thread i found myself considering the possibility that we all have the potential within us to find a way to and from another world more readily perhaps than being abducted by aliens, haunted by the paranormal, or subject to both delusion and illusion or mind altering phenomena by the insidious elite that appear to rule the many facets of our lives. And this potential within us is called the Imagination...the most powerful tool known to humankind. And Imagination is really the one last bastion of freedom that we all have left in world...a commodity that can never be taken away, and hence something that is deeply cherished by all irrespective of whether it is recognised as such.

The suggestion has already come forth that what we are able to make manifest in our lives does indeed start as a thought long before it becomes an existential reality. So perhaps when we consider the nature of 'Alien' as a concept, what might be worth discussing is whether in fact at the momment when 'contact' is witnessed, heard, felt, or sensed in some other form - and often thought to be 'external' to us - we are merely just tapping into the depths of our own unique psychology and discovering for the first time the full potential of our own wonderfully creative imagination. If it were further suggested that the imagination, and creativity in particular is derived via immersion in our subconscious mind - itself a vast repositary of raw information and lost pieces of sensual data - and if through want, need, or sheer group psycho-dynamics we find ourselves suddenly penetrating this space and bridging the gap between the reality that we know through experience and the utterly irrational aspects of the subconscious mind, is it not also possible to consider what we believe we perceive as being something altogether 'alien' anyway? Perception is after all taking place in our minds and it is how our mind comprehends the stream of data entering it that in essence constitutes thought.

reply to post by Wertdagf


I LIKE this point. However, now I'm very curious as to know what your thoughts on quantum therom are?

reply to post by azurecara


The theories that come from our observations of the quantum state make it seem chaotic, because our veiw with current technology is at the shallow end.

It took almost a century to fully understand radiation and yet with only a few years under our belts peering into the quantum world quantum theory is making bold assertions about how our reality functions. We have mystics and psudeoscientists basing entire belief systems on these fledgling concepts.

The causational and mechanical nature of reality is not something that can be overturned, in my mind, from a few poorly understood experiments.

reply to post by azurecara

The best thing I can say is what I have been taught over and over since I was very young and still constantly comes up in my everyday life.

First there is no coincidences everything is as it should be. There are those of us in human form trying to help to ascension on to the next plain.
There are those who plan to keep the ignorance going some know what they do some, some do not but again it is no coincidence that they know or don't. For they want to enslave humanity and tell all that no, you aren't god there is only one god and he will hurt you if you do not comply but he does love you. Like that makes any sense now really?
VERY IMPORTANT WE ALL ARE GOD or GODS RATHER, we are here to learn how to manifest into creation
It is important to understand this you must realize this within all realties and aspects of life you are manifesting YOU ARE IN CONTROL.
At the same time we must realize as we are all god this means that we all play apart in manifesting the reality that we see. While we each control our local reality, there are some things out of our control. What will give us back the control is to inform, to educate, and understand this is of our making. As more and more people realize they are in control they are able to help those in need gain control over their life and their ability to ascend on to the next plain.

As for aliens I hate to talk of the bad just as I hate to talk of bad within the people I prefer to say they know not what they do at the same time I am aware they aware of what they do. Its a complicated process.

But back to the aliens and their role in the play or movie here on the earth.

Because when being born in to this life, we forget our prior experiences due to those bent on hindering the learning process and enslaving the school known as earth. Again there are both sides to help in learning or to enslave.

I find it is best not to worry the history, but learn it and have an understanding.

The best I can offer is look at the whole picture never let any one tell you they have power over you for they do not. Do not fall for the god is watching nonsense and the devil is after us.
We can say none of this is true just evil men and they can come from other worlds beyond ours.
They know how to manifest the reality, That we are all here to learn to do, we are here to learn how to create by means of knowing what we are doing, to have control over what we create, an understanding of how it works.

For soon we all will be able to make wine out of water by the thought, it is a matter of physics.

please remember you are protected and respected as long as you know you are in charge.

Originally posted by Wertdagf

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly, from your point of view:

You believe that our technology is still yet too limited to be able to take an accurate measurement of the precise nature of the quantum world. Thus, all conclusions based in this field are overly bold, are poorly understood, and therefore lack credibility...

This is an interesting angle. I can give you that the field of Quantum research is still experimental and developing, but I can't agree to gross generalise all experiments as poorly understood, and overly bold in their conclusions.

I do like your point of view though, as it is fresh to me and at a polarity of insistence on the nature of reality as being only quantifiable through scientific measurement. This appears to imply that they can potentially exist in a state beyond the comprehension of your unenhanced 5 senses, but are not 'real' until proven to be so... In essence, so long as it can be proved to exist, it will exist.

However, if that were true, the experiments in quantum research should therefore confuse this issue significantly - as the results in many of these cases have been surprising. To counter this oddity, we erode the credibility of these results by reducing them as poorly understood? Here I must disagree. Perhaps the conclusions are not palatable, but hardly discreditable. I will say that further research is always needed.

I found this quote to be a fascinating weigh in on the nature of existence in regards to scientific measurements...

Kant and Schopenhauer both thought that the underlying reality from which we are screened off by the inconstant surface of our contingent and ephemeral experiences exist in itself, independent of minds, of perception or experience. The naive realist assumes that reality consists of perception and experience alone, and concludes it is possible to encompass it exhaustively in perception and experience and know it thoroughly.

The transcendental idealists like Kant and Schopenhauer realize that we perceive or experience or think only in categories that are determined by our own apparatus, yet whatever exists in itself cannot exist in the terms of those categories, because existence as such cannot be in categories at all. Therefore, in an unfathomable way, whatever exists independently of experience must be in and throughout its entire nature different from the world of our representations.

I realize that it is next to impossible not to take the world of representations as the world tout court, reality, what there is, the world as it is in itself. This is the common sense view of things, and only in reflection of a profound character can free us from it.

Most already think that whatever we perceive and conceive is something that exists in terms of sense-dependent and mind-dependent categories. This is a tautology, but the real question is whether there is anything else other than our perceptions and our conceptions. The realist says, yes, there is an independently existing world to which our perceptions and conceptions correspond. The Bishop Berkeley says there are only our perceptions and conceptions, and God's. Both Kant and Schopenhauer insist that our perceptions and conceptions cannot be all there is, yet, nor can they be 'like' what exist independently of them, then whatever else there is cannot consist of an independently existing world which corresponds to them. Since perceptions and conceptions constitute the limits of what we can envisage, we cannot form any notion of what there is besides.

The transcendental idealist's insistences are analytic truths, that the entire conception of the world is in mind-dependent categories and those categories couldn't possibly apply to anything independently of awareness. The realist thinks he hears the TI say "nothing has any existence independently of our minds." This myth is reinforced by the fact that TIs use terms like "empirical world" and "physical object" in accordance with their own presuppositions, not the empiricist's.

Therefore, there is no intelligible sense in which our system of the world can be said to be 'like' the world as it is in itself, because the former exists only in terms of mind-dependent and sense-dependent categories, and there are no other kinds of category in terms of which any comparison between those and the world could be made by us.

The comparison is impossible: categories are applicable only to experience, for they are forms of experience - they categorize perceptions, conceptions, and etcetera in consciousness or awareness. Consequently, that reality itself cannot be what we all grew up taking it to be, but that whatever it is independently of what we take it to be is something radically unconceptualizable by us, is an inescapable truth, but one that hasn't been grasped by realists.

Ok guys, sorry to bring the intelligence quotient of the thread seriously down here, but im very tired and its very late. But something that has always bugged me about the "wall drawings" that the ancients did that look like ets's is this. I know the sceptics will (rightly so) say that this is not proof that we have been visited by extra terrestrial beings but if they are not pics of et's then are we to assume that ancient man over all parts of the world woke up one morning and thought, "god im bored today, and theres nothing on telly, i think il make a random drawing of something that does not exist in my environment or my world".
THoughts?