How the "Hell" does it motivate?

i have heard a lot on ATS that "HELL" is a not a good motivator and that its just is a tool invented by man to control the masses.
I do agree that it is used to keep people believing without questioning much.
Then the threat of "pain"/"punishment" is also used to control people, doesnt mean that pain doesnt exist. Pain however is a good motivator till a limit. I'l expand on it a bit later.
What if hell does exist but is also used by power seeking people to control masses, paradoxically if these really believed in hell, they would be worrying about other things than seeking power.
.
We as humans have basically two driving forces.
1)seeking pleasure.
2)avoiding pain.
But they come to a serious conflict if they clash with the "right thing to do" and then depending on the person he/she can choose to obey the basic forces and give in or stand up for the right thing.
But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?
Hell and Heaven help here to overcome the basic human nature and do the "RIGHT THING."
it is obviously simplified here, people have different reason to stand up for "right"
some know they'l meet God, some just want Heaven and some fear hell. Interestingly a motivation for any type of person and it doesnt contradict each other.
The outcome? A lot of People doing right by believing either one or all.
.
What do you think?

Originally posted by logical7
i have heard a lot on ATS that "HELL" is a not a good motivator and that its just is a tool invented by man to control the masses.
I do agree that it is used to keep people believing without questioning much.
Then the threat of "pain"/"punishment" is also used to control people, doesnt mean that pain doesnt exist. Pain however is a good motivator till a limit. I'l expand on it a bit later.
What if hell does exist but is also used by power seeking people to control masses, paradoxically if these really believed in hell, they would be worrying about other things than seeking power.
.
We as humans have basically two driving forces.
1)seeking pleasure.
2)avoiding pain.
But they come to a serious conflict if they clash with the "right thing to do" and then depending on the person he/she can choose to obey the basic forces and give in or stand up for the right thing.
But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?
Hell and Heaven help here to overcome the basic human nature and do the "RIGHT THING."
it is obviously simplified here, people have different reason to stand up for "right"
some know they'l meet God, some just want Heaven and some fear hell. Interestingly a motivation for any type of person and it doesnt contradict each other.
The outcome? A lot of People doing right by believing either one or all.
.
What do you think?

Perhaps applying logic you would see, "hell" and "heaven" were once needed as social crutches to get people to avoid the bad, and maintain the good. Science, technology, information, and wisdom are thwarting the evils of mind control in large populations. Do a little research on the Torah and find out that "HELL" was a "HOLE" in the ground where they used to bury and burn refuse. Maybe do a little RE-SEARCH before asking inane questions, unless you really want an opinion, which doesn't matter unless you want free data mining. Live up to the name of logic in it's name? Not all will do goodness for goodness sake, not all can understand the quantum math and physics principles used to understand what people term KARMA. Not all understand the workings of the mind, dreams, physics, frequencies, love, etc.

Well, pleasure is a good motivator. I think pain sucks myself and will try to avoid it but am not the least afraid of death. Is there a hell, yes there is if you believe there is. Is there a heaven? I don't know. I just want to be someone that people remember as honest and sincere. I want to be remembered in a positive way when I am gone. Most people would be terrible if there was no rules created by society to govern us. Stealing would be a common practice by many, Some would be cannibals, rape would be happening all the time, people would be killing others for just about anything. I wouldn't want to exist in that kind of world myself. Many people deep down would love that kind of world. Even in the most primordial sections of my mind I do not desire to be hateful and overpowering.

reply to post by OldSkullJedi

Perhaps applying logic you would see, "hell" and "heaven" were once needed as social crutches to get people to avoid the bad, and maintain the good. Science, technology, information, and wisdom are thwarting the evils of mind control in large populations. Do a little research on the Torah and find out that "HELL" was a "HOLE" in the ground where they used to bury and burn refuse. Maybe do a little RE-SEARCH before asking inane questions, unless you really want an opinion, which doesn't matter unless you want free data mining. Live up to the name of logic in it's name? Not all will do goodness for goodness sake, not all can understand the quantum math and physics principles used to understand what people term KARMA. Not all understand the workings of the mind, dreams, physics, frequencies, love, etc

thanks for contributing.
What i get from your post is that "good" should increase proportionally to advancement in science, technology and knowledge etc. However the observations dont agree to that.
I maybe wrong but what i see is that scientific progress and being good & bad are not related as you suggest.
Removing the "crutches" have actually made the society crumble morally, socially and economically.
Regarding derivation of words, yes, you maybe right, but how does a word derived from a known thing makes the the unknown thing for which it is used unreal or real?
And using that justification to prove it unreal is as stupid as saying that "titan is not a satellite in our solar system as the name titan is from a myth.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Well, pleasure is a good motivator. I think pain sucks myself and will try to avoid it but am not the least afraid of death. Is there a hell, yes there is if you believe there is. Is there a heaven? I don't know. I just want to be someone that people remember as honest and sincere. I want to be remembered in a positive way when I am gone. Most people would be terrible if there was no rules created by society to govern us. Stealing would be a common practice by many, Some would be cannibals, rape would be happening all the time, people would be killing others for just about anything. I wouldn't want to exist in that kind of world myself. Many people deep down would love that kind of world. Even in the most primordial sections of my mind I do not desire to be hateful and overpowering.

You have touched an interesting point here,
"to be remembered" why?
I dont know if you are a theist or atheist but you do agree that there is a desire to "continue" even if in thoughts of others, as the alternative is "painful" to even think of.
But a simple question, would people(also you) do the right thing even if it means being rememember with hate or do things even if they are wrong just to live on as a happy memory?
I am purposely going to extreme here, mostly doing good things is also the right thing but what would a person choose if its the former?
A truly unsung hero is very rare, most of us need a motive to behave.

reply to post by logical7


If people study the Bible properly they would realize that 'Hell' does not last forever (just the consequences of ones actions). People will burn away until they are ashes and the length of their burning is based on what they have done. Most people who opt-out of God's system but are nice people will be consumed away to nothing almost within an instant and no fear of pain should compel them to choose God or not. Those who are cruel to others and deliberately set out to destroy someone's faith will rightfully take a bit longer to be consumed away but such 'punishment' will be seen as worthy of the person's actions and give them pause for thought when committing such acts against others.

If people have such fear of the Lord because they have been cruel to others then maybe it will be a motivator to turn their life around and repent and follow God who can wipe out our whole record completely.

Either way, whatever judgement one receives will be seen by those that remain as just.

Christians who try to compel others through fear of Hell are using a poor motivator because not only are the advertising the penalty falsely, they are making God's character look bad in the process for designing such an unjust system. If people knew what God has prepared for His people then people would realize they would be missing out on such a great deal compared to this life that they would make their relationship with God a much higher priority that this transient life.

reply to post by iESOTERICuEXOTERIC


there are employable technologies that do not require cash input for use; canines do not need to be trained by some, nor enlightened to heaven, nor hell; only employed by science and technology. how? One way is operant conditioning through "SHOCK-COLLARS."

Technology, Teachknowledgy, good, bad, pleasure, pain, the individual, the whole...merely concepts and maintained by the ego.

Infection of truth, knowledge, progress is spreading. Low, high Frequencies attainable by all regardless of intelligence level in any measurable form, or currently immeasurable (i.e. creative, comedic, social, etc)

Low is base, bass, high is elevation, suppression of this is intolerable to ALL minds FREE and ALL beings do what?

We feel, we love, we crave to be loved and to give it. We are humans capable of much greatness.

thanks for contributing.

And using that justification to prove it unreal is as stupid as saying that "titan is not a satellite in our solar system as the name titan is from a myth.

thank you for replying. nothing you say is stupid, nothing you think is dumb. you are worthy and entitled to opinions.

you are one of us

Originally posted by logical7
i have heard a lot on ATS that "HELL" is a not a good motivator and that its just is a tool invented by man to control the masses.
I do agree that it is used to keep people believing without questioning much.
Then the threat of "pain"/"punishment" is also used to control people, doesnt mean that pain doesnt exist. Pain however is a good motivator till a limit. I'l expand on it a bit later.
What if hell does exist but is also used by power seeking people to control masses, paradoxically if these really believed in hell, they would be worrying about other things than seeking power.
.
We as humans have basically two driving forces.
1)seeking pleasure.
2)avoiding pain.
But they come to a serious conflict if they clash with the "right thing to do" and then depending on the person he/she can choose to obey the basic forces and give in or stand up for the right thing.
But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?
Hell and Heaven help here to overcome the basic human nature and do the "RIGHT THING."
it is obviously simplified here, people have different reason to stand up for "right"
some know they'l meet God, some just want Heaven and some fear hell. Interestingly a motivation for any type of person and it doesnt contradict each other.
The outcome? A lot of People doing right by believing either one or all.
.
What do you think?

Meh, this concept of a hell where humans suffer for all eternity does more harm than good and rightfully so. Hell does exist, it's in Heaven. It's the Lake of Fire being prepared. No one is burning in Hell right now. They are either in Heaven or something I refer to as a sheol-like state where one goes to reflect on all their actions in their life...

Remember, this is my conjecture so do your research!

But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?

Remember, Conventional Justice isn't like God's Justice. Very abstract but it's understandable.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by rickymouse
Well, pleasure is a good motivator. I think pain sucks myself and will try to avoid it but am not the least afraid of death. Is there a hell, yes there is if you believe there is. Is there a heaven? I don't know. I just want to be someone that people remember as honest and sincere. I want to be remembered in a positive way when I am gone. Most people would be terrible if there was no rules created by society to govern us. Stealing would be a common practice by many, Some would be cannibals, rape would be happening all the time, people would be killing others for just about anything. I wouldn't want to exist in that kind of world myself. Many people deep down would love that kind of world. Even in the most primordial sections of my mind I do not desire to be hateful and overpowering.

You have touched an interesting point here,
"to be remembered" why?
I dont know if you are a theist or atheist but you do agree that there is a desire to "continue" even if in thoughts of others, as the alternative is "painful" to even think of.
But a simple question, would people(also you) do the right thing even if it means being rememember with hate or do things even if they are wrong just to live on as a happy memory?
I am purposely going to extreme here, mostly doing good things is also the right thing but what would a person choose if its the former?
A truly unsung hero is very rare, most of us need a motive to behave.

edit on 31-1-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I suppose I am a theist since I believe in god. I do not believe in organized religion though even though I believe Jesus was a Messiah and Buddah was a good guy.

I feel we can continue on past our death even if only in the minds of others. Genetically I will not die till all my offspring are gone. I live in my daughters and grand daughters but my consciousness needs to be transferred by their desire to accept my teachings. Making my teachings of good and teaching them to respect other living creatures of the world is what I desire to pass on. I do not automatically respect just people, all life is to be respected. Some of this is contained in the information in my DNA that I have given to them. I was passed this information from my ancestors. I know that our knowledge is not only contained in our brain but is in every cell of our bodies.

Do I need motivation to be good? No, the reward I give myself is all the recognition I need. Would I risk my life to save another person? Sure, without even thinking of it if I could do it reasonably safely, like I said I hate to hurt especially from doing something dumb. I admire real truth, not someones interpretation of it. I hate the legal system that we have for this reason, they are teaching us to sidestep the truth. Even our top government officials teach our children that deceit is acceptable by sidestepping the whole truth and using perception to steer us to their way of thinking.

reply to post by logical7

But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?
Hell and Heaven help here to overcome the basic human nature and do the "RIGHT THING."

I fear the ones who needs to be feared into doing good.

If the promise of heaven or hell is the only thing keeping one from doing evil, one needs to wake up and look around.

Consider yourself, your friends, your family, your loved ones, the earth. They are reason enough to want to do good and refrain from evil.

reply to post by logical7


Hell doesn't motivate people to do good. The goodness of God is intended to bring about righteousness.
Prisons do not motivate people to do good.
A little common sense and a lot of bible reading is needed...but is severely lacking at ATS.
Bunch of clashing cymbals and noisy gongs are they who do not believe in cause and effect.

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by logical7

 

Hell doesn't motivate people to do good. The goodness of God is intended to bring about righteousness.
Prisons do not motivate people to do good.
A little common sense and a lot of bible reading is needed...but is severely lacking at ATS.
Bunch of clashing cymbals and noisy gongs are they who do not believe in cause and effect.

Well said!

The conditions for a righteous world were set in motion a long time ago...we were given FREE WILL to manipulate the conditions, either way...

A99

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by logical7

 

Hell doesn't motivate people to do good. The goodness of God is intended to bring about righteousness.
Prisons do not motivate people to do good.
A little common sense and a lot of bible reading is needed...but is severely lacking at ATS.
Bunch of clashing cymbals and noisy gongs are they who do not believe in cause and effect.

i never said that its the only motive, just better than no motive, better no crime even by fear of prison.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by logical7

 

But whats the motivation to do the right thing if their is no promise of ultimate JUSTICE?
Hell and Heaven help here to overcome the basic human nature and do the "RIGHT THING."

I fear the ones who needs to be feared into doing good.

If the promise of heaven or hell is the only thing keeping one from doing evil, one needs to wake up and look around.

Consider yourself, your friends, your family, your loved ones, the earth. They are reason enough to want to do good and refrain from evil.

you are building the opinion on an assumption that everyone is capable of that. I am not talking about idealism. I am talking about a reality that can be put into practice, appealing to persons of different nature and still make a change towards "good."

reply to post by logical7

you are building the opinion on an assumption that everyone is capable of that. I am not talking about idealism. I am talking about a reality that can be put into practice, appealing to persons of different nature and still make a change towards "good."

You are building an assumption on the opposite. And yes you are talking about idealism. God, heaven, and hell are idealistic notions, things that can only appeal to the imagination as ideals.

It's akin to telling children they should mind their manners or the boogeyman will get them.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

You are building an assumption on the opposite. And yes you are talking about idealism. God, heaven, and hell are idealistic notions, things that can only appeal to the imagination as ideals. It's akin to telling children they should mind their manners or the boogeyman will get them.

yes we have opposite initial assumptions. You think we got "spontaneously created" i dont. In the op i am not discussing the validity of "Hell" i am discussing, whats the problem if it does make things move towards good?

reply to post by logical7

Spontaneously created? Isn't that what you think? Evidence points to it being millions of years for the universe to churn out man. But that's off topic.

I might have to agree. Those that need religion also need to obey, and must also need the fear of punishment or they wouldn't be able to control their animal urges. I personally would hate to be that person, but I guess if you need it you need it. Sheep indeed need a shepherd.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

I might have to agree. Those that need religion also need to obey, and must also need the fear of punishment or they wouldn't be able to control their animal urges. I personally would hate to be that person, but I guess if you need it you need it. Sheep indeed need a shepherd.

my take on that is a bit different. I think everyone obeys someone/something, the only choice is who is worth obeying.
Obeying one's own moral compass is passable but subjective hence dangerous, cant expect a criminal to have a rational approach as you. Right?
For your proposed system, everyone should have a basic level of morals & ethics taught to them but you cannot answer their "why?" so completely because It actually contradicts "survival of fittest."
.
About the shepherd, hope you meant God and not any priest etc.