Hamas expresses regret for 5 U.S deaths

Misinformed, Willy, not hate-filled. I'd be willing to bet she's good-hearted.

Shrug, however much justification they have in their own minds, the murder of innocents is wrong in every modern culture in the world.

Perhaps what saphie is contesting is the blanket statement 'they hate freedom'.

Seems a bit of an oversimplification, they have their own twisted logic to justify their actions. The whole 'hate freedom' idea seems to be used to demonize the enemy.

"They" being the leaders, both political and religious, not necessarily the people. The people know what they are told, without the luxury of internet access to find various sources of information.

We were all made by the same Creator and I believe that we all have the same desire for the same kind of freedoms and liberties, no matter where we are. In the name of religion, people will suppress such yearnings.

Mr. One Sac, actually if you killed one of my brothers i would fight till my last breath to see you get what justice demands. i wouldn't hate you, though. i think you misunderstand me, i don't think it's alright for "them" to hate "us" or to strike out violently against "us". i just think if our government stopped treating people like means to an end, we wouldn't have to even talk about who hates americans enough to want us dead. then, we wouldn't be spending billions on war/murder instead of healthcare and education--we would be able to build a better america, take care of our seniors and even give out a few tax breaks...ah, eutopia.

ha, maybe if i were this angry person you describe i would be better equipped to defend my positions on ats, but since i'm not i'll stay with the long-winded polite approach.

(thanx TC, your comments didn't go un-noticed )

If somebody killed my brother and i knew, I would immediately if not sooner murder them in the worst possible way.

and you would be guilty of the wrong you accuse his murderer of...all murder is wrong and you should and would be prosecuted. why have law if in emotional outrage we turn to chaos? what good is the law when we don't respect it enough to bring murderers to justice? i would hope that you are just trying to be big and bold and you don't really mean that you would take life as if you have the right to decide who gets to live and who gets to die.

my oh my, i was only coming back to download some more of that David Ike stuff but i couldn't stop myself from responding...kids, listen up...all murder is wrong.

Saphronia, I am not debating how the US spends our tax dollars, I am simply responding to the statement you made, that you seem to be retreating on now.

Originally Posted bu Saphronia

they don't hate freedom and liberty, they hate americans and some of the reasons while you choose to ignore them, are quite valid

I apologize for saying you were hate filled, I am very glad you debunked my theory about you. However, back to your statement, the average American is no more responsible for the injustices of our governmnet than they are for the good things our government does. Most of us simply struggle to make a good life for ourselves and our loved ones.

To say that there are people on this planet who are "justified" in hating "Americans" is foolish. The fact is, flea bitten, disease ridden camel humpers like the terrorists who attack civilians, as on 9/11, have the same belief that you stated, and more. They believe they are justified in hating Americans, and killing them. It is a type of evil-psychotic-stupidity, that leaves people dead.

It is evil, as they know full well, that the babies on the airplanes are not responsible for whatever wrongs they feel they have been dealt. They want average Americans to be frightened to try and induce whatever policy changes they want.

So to clarify what I brought up, no, you are quite wrong, they are not justified in hating Americans. I go out to work each morning, I come home, I shower I eat I watch a little tv or computer and go to bed. How does that justify anyone hating me?

I thought we were created in gods image, we better damn well be able to decide, if he goes to jail, we're deciding how his life will end up anyway, and if he gets murdered in jail, well it was just poor procrastination.

Mr. One Sac: i'm not retreating from anything, like i said you misunderstand me. i said some of the reasons were valid not the hatred--the reasons for the hatred in some cases really needs to be addressed by americans. we go silent when one talks about things that we feel don't concern us personally. at some point we americans are gonna have to stop pointing the finger at the USG, for it is us who elects our government. to say i'm just a guy who gets up and goes to work everyday in my opinion is irresponsible because you are much more than that. the masses of guys and gals just like you, and me, that get up and go to work everyday make this country run. i say the things that i say to you, and just about anyone who will listen and debate because most of the working masses don't know what they're tax dollars are doing to people in places like Mexico and Bolivia. so it's said they hate liberty or freedom...when the reality is they hate americans because of the conditions forced upon them by american imperialism which you support by getting up everyday going to work.

i forget the other guys name but...ummm...no it's not our choice to take a life that's why it is a crime. we don't have the right to take a human life. if you are following the bible you will note that it's one of the ten commandments. so, if he vauled his freedom then he would have done what was necessary to preserve it. their are always at least two choices to ever situtation we find ourselves in. when one chooses that which is wrong over the right, then one must be ready to face and accept the outcome whether it be positive or negative.

[Edited on 22-8-2002 by Saphronia]

Thou Shall Not Murder (Proper translation)

All homocide is not murder, but all murder is homocide

Interesting you should say that one must accept the consequences of one's actions. I refer you to the discussion about the Palestinians, Saphie. You have no dog in the fight, so it should be easy for you to be objective.

[Edited on 22-8-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

[Edited on 23-8-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

If it isn't up to men(mankind) to decide the outcome of somebodies life, then why leave it to a group of them.

Saphronia, the last time I checked, there werent any Mexicans blowing themselves and murdering people on crowded buses, or Bolivians flying hi-jacked airplanes full of babies into buildings and murdering thousands of people.

If you want to start a new topic about the evils of the Gerber Baby Food empire and what they tried to do to the Guatemalen baby food market, by all means go for it. But dont try to befuddle the real issue, by implying that "to do the "right" thing" I should lay down my hammer and what? Sponge off of the government? Is that what you think is "right"?

The bottom line is, its wrong to hate. If you think Gerber baby food is detrimental to your happiness and freedom, hate the owners. Dont hate the poor slob who has to go work for the bastards to survive.

Using your own logic, I should "hate" the Russian people, because their government was opposed to mine for so long. Gee, now I am seeing things your way Saphronia, I should hate the Chinese and North Koreans too, because they dont fight against their governments. I mean, after all, look how much of my tax money is being spent to protect me from those threats, when it could be going to social programms, like prescription coverage for everyone.

I see your logic now.

[Edited on 8-23-2002 by William One Sac]

william, i work in corporate america, and i believe in mass production. so, the things you accuse me of are not only invalid, they are out right misinformed. i don't know what you are talking about, but we were talking about the growing hate of americans around the world, and the running line on this site seems to be "they hate liberty and freedom", that's not true. whether "they" be Mexicans or Arabs they hate americans because of the economic policies (forced privitization) and the policing (constant upheaval and war) that comes along with that. whether you accept that as right or wrong it is what's happening around the world. being joe public oblivious is what got us here in the first place...how many attacks did it take to get your attention, joe? now you all outraged, joe? what do you suppose we do joe? how would you know joe? you're just an idiot joe, go back to watching the simpons in your underwear, we'll handle this like we did the first four times. violence is always the answer, but it's never the solution.

and, for the 3rd time, i'm not condoning hate, i don't think it's ok. there is a reality to this thing and either you igonore it and accept "oh, they hate liberty" or you can face that there are some real issues with the way our government is running. if it isn't painfully obvious to you by now joe, what will it take a nuke?

i almost for got you...ummm...i still can't grasp your name, but what group? i don't get what you mean, capital punishment ??? if so, i don't support that either. whatever, all murder is wrong. if you kill someone out of revenge you will go to jail cause it's a crime and you would deserve to be separted from normal society for committing it. bottom line.

[Edited on 24-8-2002 by Saphronia]

Right, as I said, I understand where you are coming from now. Im not sure what your point was in the last post, but I get the sense that you are still trying to argue with me. Dont bother, Ive already got your number. I dont agree with you, I stick to my claims that its wrong to hate Americans, and I disagree with your view that there are people who are justified in doing so. Those are your words grasshopper, not mine.

Would you prefer it if we were a facist country Saphronia? I am getting the sense from you that you would. Honest question.

To Webster some folk really need to pick it up,

Fascism: political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race and stands for centralized autocratic and often militaristic government

But you have my number? That�s not my number. Sorry sir, you have no idea.

After three explanations, I�m done Joe. So, it�ll be what it is�a waste to continue�you obviously have not read a thing I wrote or maybe you lack the mental ability to comprehend the English language properly. In either case, I did give you three strikes, since you are unwilling or incapable of grasping it, I will leave you to your self-made assumptions. Believe what you want about me this is your right and well, I could care-less. Still, I think I have stated time and time again that I believe in real democracy and nothing I have posted smells of fascism as described in my Webster Dictionary. At any rate going over it again with you would be pointless, as you would choose to ignore it as you do with everything. You have made that very clear Joe. Ah well, sometimes we wonder why, and now we know.

hope you are not offended, i'm just tired of the circles. you may choose to continue chasing your tail, but i refuse to watch.

I am not offended in the least! But I think we can do without the name calling! But I still maintain my original stance, no matter how much you try to muddy the waters, it is wrong to "hate Americans" and there is no "justification" for it, according to your original remark.

ok.

Just like a woman. Always has to get the last word. I've tried to out-last this one, but there just ain't no doing it!

nah-nah-na-nah-nah

Hamas apoligizing for killing US citizens, and we're supposed to believe that right? Like jihadists really care who they kill. All they care about is killing. Period. It's they're big goal in life. If you can't convert it, kill it, Ain't that right?
Well, ok, fine. There's a big future in that for the folks in that little corner of the world isn't there. I feel the same way, only it's not if you can't convert it kill it. It's the human race isn't worth killing for. it's not worth spit.