Challenge Match: Druid42 vs okiecowboy: ATS is an accurate slice of the general population.

Thanks goes out to ATS for yet another opportunity for another Debate Challenge. Special kudos for okiecowboy, for taking the plunge into the Debate Forum.

The premise of this debate will be whether or not ATS is an accurate representation of the mindset of the average citizen of this planet.

Questions to be asked:

Are ATS members special?

Do the Policies of ATS create a better informed citizen?

Facts to be considered:

ATS members hail from every corner of the planet. The really rough breakdown would be a majority of US members, then our UK members, and then our AU members. Add a sprinkling of members from other countries, and I think we've covered ideals encompassing the globe. A nice little slice of the human population.

Face it, a google search on a fringe subject almost always gives a link to ATS. I myself found my way here from a fringe topic I was researching. I instantly joined. Productive since.

I subscribe to the Introductions Forum, and even though I don't get the chance to welcome everyone, I make sure to drop in from time to time and welcome them, but one odd fact I've noticed is that 99% of the new members are long time lurkers. With that I can safely say that there is a vast larger number of readers than members. Readers who eventually join.

As more people are upset with the current socio-political environment of the world, they use their computers to research topics. Their research leads them here, and they lurk. Once they see the strict policies of ATS, they decide that after all, there is a bastion of sanity still remaining in the world.

ATS members consist of widely disperse group of people. It's the diversity that each member brings to the forums that make it a unique sampling of the population of the world.

Being brief, I'll now turn the debate over to okiecowboy.

What a great thing this is..to debate the legendary Druid42, on a topic that is near and dear to our hearts, and for that..thank you!
but on to the topic at hand

First I would like to bring forth a few facts..at the moment of this writing, the population of the world is

7,061,623,704

cenus

now let us take a look at the stats listed for ATS.

We have 229,593 members generating 11,232,028 posts of substance that cover 690,149 topics in 166 different discussion forums

ATS

as you can see ATS membership is a very tiny slice of the population of the world.

but let us go a little deeper..
ATS at it's core is a conspiracy theory website, meaning the people here have a non main stream idea as to why things happen, these go from who killed JFK, or what happened on 9/11, to bigfoot and shadow governments.

So what percentage of the population believes in such theories?
let's take a look at a couple of the more popular ones..

Who killed JFK?

On the 40th anniversary of JFK’s assassination, a recent FOX News poll shows most Americans disagree with the government’s conclusions about the killing. The Warren Commission (search) found that Lee Harvey Oswald (search) acted alone when he shot Kennedy, but 66 percent of the public today think the assassination was “part of a larger conspiracy” while only 25 percent think it was the “act of one individual.”

source

66%...thats alot, but it is not 100%

how about 9/11

New National Poll: 36% of Americans Believe 9/11 Was an Inside Job

source

36%...not 100%

bigfoot

According to one poll about 25% believe in big foot

source

now what does this have to do with anything? let's go back to something you said.

I myself found my way here from a fringe topic I was researching. I instantly joined

If a person likes country music, they will listen to country music, If a person belives in conspiracy theories, they will seek out those theories..

ATS is such a place...it would stand to reason that 100% of the members here believe in something that fits that realm.
not 66% or 25% but closer to 100%

"Are ATS members special

sure, in the sense that they all believe in something considered out of the norm of society

Do the Policies of ATS create a better informed citizen?

only within the membership base

I feel that since the ATS membership is such a small slice of the population, and the fact that almost all of the members of ATS follow some sort of conspiracy theory, which does not translate into the rest of the population according to polls, that alone shows ATS is not accurate representation of the mindset of the average citizen of this planet.

I await your reply

When the rubber meets the road.....

I'll maintain that ATS is an accurate slice of the population. People are concerned about current events, and they search on google for information. Most links do link back to ATS, especially concerning the Sandy Hook tragedy. See, the google spiders crawl ATS, and most information here is readily available to the rest of the internet. It's one reason why the Mods have been so diligent to close all the threads that reveal personal information.

ATS is also a family friendly site. Certain cuss words aren't allowed, and there is an automatic censorship protocol built in. If you use a specific word, it'll only show up in your post as a # mark. ATS is designed to prevent flagrant profanity, and thus, appeals to the general population.

to debate the legendary Druid42

I'm not a legend. I'm simply just another member that follows the rules like everyone else does. The general population follows the rules, such as obeying the speed limit, going to work everyday, paying taxes, and so on. My reputation is only because I have contributed my time here, I help others, and I engage in interesting conversations. Something the general population does on a regular basis.

ATS membership is a very tiny slice of the population of the world

When you are sampling for a poll, you take a tiny slice. Exit polls, for example, only include 300 people, yet MSM can build results from them. You can take a small slice, or a big slice, but the averages remain fairly constant. Since my opponent took valid facts, the world population vs ATS membership, I can say it is a valid poll, running a small sample against a larger population.

not 66% or 25% but closer to 100%

This debate is not about the size of the samplings. The percentages my opponent has presented are only numerical values, and do not really deal with the topic at hand. We, in this debate, are talking about how accurately ATS represents the current mentality of the population of the world as a whole.

The current trend on ATS is Gun Control, and 2nd Amendment Rights. From the threads I've read, people are speaking out against gun control, here on ATS, and vehemently defending their constitutional rights. In real life, the NRA has blasted the Obama administration, and any gun control legislation has been stalled.

I think that is a direct correlation in how the members of ATS, by posting here, influence the mentality of the rest of the population, who read ATS, but are not members. Perhaps it actually is the influence our postings have.

ATS has gained integrity over the years as a reliable source of valid and honest information.

We debunk hoaxes, we examine evidence, and from the broad membership, have an expert in nearly every field: Westcoast and Puterman are our earthquake experts. Phage is the anomaly expert. Agarta is our graphics expert. Rising Against is the JFK expert. Ngchunter is our astronomy expert. Slayer69 is our archeology expert. (I can't list everyone!) The rest of us, well, we all contribute in our own ways. That is what makes us an accurate slice of the population. We all have certain skills, certain abilities, and we all contribute what we know.

We deal with facts, not fiction, and the reputation of ATS is upheld across the internet, regardless of the topic. Certain members have repeatedly proven their knowledge in certain fields, just as in real life certain people prove their abilities. In real life there are experts in their fields, and the general population, and on ATS there are experts in their fields, and the regular members.

The comparison upholds my position that ATS truly is representative of the average population.

I'll rest, and yield at this point to okiecowboy.

Thanks to druid42 for some interesting points, however I would like a chance to counter those points.

you mentioned exit polls

When you are sampling for a poll, you take a tiny slice. Exit polls, for example, only include 300 people, yet MSM can build results from them

however even MSM admits the system is flawed

While exit polling is a notoriously inexact science

source

If you conduct a exit poll in a voting district that is more red/blue leaning, guess what your poll will indicate?

the same holds true with ATS, Sure we have a diverse group here, from all walks of life, from many countries,, however one thing still stands out..we all believe in something considered conspiricy related, and the general public does not.

from the broad membership, have an expert in nearly every field: Westcoast and Puterman are our earthquake experts. Phage is the anomaly expert. Agarta is our graphics expert. Rising Against is the JFK expert. Ngchunter is our astronomy expert. Slayer69 is our archeology expert.

I agree we have some great minds that gather here..however I do not know anyone as expert on earthquakes, outside of ATS as I do here...ATS is a gathering place for those minds

If you host a wine tasting party, you are only going to get those that like wine, or those that want to show up at your party, there are many people that don't like wine, or don't drink at all. and they won"t come to your party..

ATS has gained integrity over the years as a reliable source of valid and honest information.

This is true somewhat...but how far out does that extend from ATS ?
how honest and valid did all the posts on 2012 being the end of the world turn out?

My point being, in order to have an accurate slice of the population represented here, you would need folks that do not believe in any sort of Conspiracy theories, I do not think they are here..

Thank you for reading , and I await your reply

reply to post by okiecowboy

.....You put the pedal to the metal.

In reply, I'd like to ask my opponent who we were before we joined ATS, and I'll suppose he'll answer a member of the general population. Just my guess.

In fact, we are all members of the general population. Membership to ATS is a subset of that.

we all believe in something considered conspiricy related, and the general public does not.

I believe that is a rather erroneous statement. The general public does believe in conspiracy theories, it's why they search the internet, find a link to ATS, and lurk the forums. Yes, there are far many more lurkers than actual contributing members, and this link, in fact, tells me that there are

431 members logged in right now

and

3,004 guests visiting right now.

Those visiting guests are still reading topics on ATS. They will become future members, but know that the rules for posting are very strict. The above statistics only relate to this snapshot in time, early on a Sunday morning, and hardly prime-time on ATS. Being Sunday I imagine that quite a few members are attending a religious event, and will log in later in the day.

Back to an earlier thought, I know people in real life that have all sorts of theories. I tried to get them to join ATS, but they are not interested (too lazy, computer illiterate, can't type) in joining a website. They are still members of society, so to think that only logged in active members are the only ones in real life thinking about CTs would be an err.

In closing:
The membership of ATS comes from all walks of life, from housewives, computer programmers, bankers, mechanics, cowboys, and even adolescent youth. What you are in real life does not matter on ATS, you retain the utmost anonymity, and knowing this, it's easy to realize that ATS members come from all over the planet, those people who like to question, search, and discover answers. Well, we don't have all the answers here, but that's half the fun of being a member. You are representing your knowledge, (or lack thereof) with a forum full of like-minded individuals.

Thanks goes out to okiecowboy for accepting this debate challenge. To all the readers, staff, and judges, thank you for your time.

Well my Esteemed Opponent has made a very good case, of what ATS is...and If that was the topic of the debate, he would win hands down....however the topic is : ATS is an accurate slice of the general population, and I do not think he has made that point...

In reply, I'd like to ask my opponent who we were before we joined ATS, and I'll suppose he'll answer a member of the general population. Just my guess.

not to leave a question hanging, yes...a member of the general population....but not just a normal member...one that happens to believe in conspiracy theories, Not all of them mind you, but some...enough to seek out others like me to talk about those theories...something that one can not allways do in the general population...

see those that believe in conspiracy theories, are often regarded as nut cases, trouble makers, crazy etc...if you don't believe me...just ask the whitehouse about anything regarding a birth certificate...they will sure tell you how you are looked upon..

The general public does believe in conspiracy theories, it's why they search the internet, find a link to ATS, and lurk the forums. Yes, there are far many more lurkers than actual contributing members, and this link, in fact, tells me that there are

that statement, as well worded as it is, is not exactly true...It should read SOME of the general public believes..not all...however as I have shown, not counting those ATS members that may have a job to come and spread disinfo here, that ATS members as a whole believe in conspiracy theories, and that ratio is not transfered to the general public..as the stats I posted before, show only a percentage believe..

The membership of ATS comes from all walks of life, from housewives, computer programmers, bankers, mechanics, cowboys, and even adolescent youth. What you are in real life does not matter on ATS, you retain the utmost anonymity, and knowing this, it's easy to realize that ATS members come from all over the planet, those people who like to question, search, and discover answers. Well, we don't have all the answers here, but that's half the fun of being a member. You are representing your knowledge, (or lack thereof) with a forum full of like-minded individuals

Again Druid42 has done a great job of describing members of ATS, we come from all walks of life, of all races..
ATS has some of the greatest minds in the world included in the membership base , and I consider my esteemed opponent as one of them....however the topic of debate isn't what makes up the membership of ATS...

This debate is not about the size of the samplings. The percentages my opponent has presented are only numerical values, and do not really deal with the topic at hand. We, in this debate, are talking about how accurately ATS represents the current mentality of the population of the world as a whole

Druid said the above in a reply...and he is correct in what he says to a point..however the debate is about the sampling of the general population, and ATS does not represent the mentality as a whole..

If we had a website that only delt with current events, or world politics or something then that would be true...HOWEVER...ATS is a conspiracy theory website...but we do not have a random sampling of the public...we have those that are interested in conspiracy theories, and not all the public is interested..

if the world was a case of crayons, dumped out....we would be all the green ones in a pile, we all have one thing in common , our view of the world around us..

we are a diverse bunch, no doubt...

one may believe that druid42 is really a Reptilian, one could make a thread and present your evidence in a well worded post, and there would be someone that would agree with you here I might wager..
If I was to go to the local watering hole, and present the same evidence, well let's just say It might not end well..


ATS is a niche

a distinct segment of a market.
pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal:

dictionary

In closing I would say as great as ATS is, and everything it is...it is not an an accurate slice of the general population..and that is the topic at hand..

Much thanks to Druid42 for a great debate, and thanks to the mods, judges, and readers for taking the time to read this,
And thanks to ATS, a place for all of us green crayons to gather!

Judgments...

First Round: Druid42 makes an interesting overview of the ATS membership but okiecowboy does a fantastic job at rebutting Druid42’s facts while strongly positioning his views that ATS is conspiracy driven, opposing his opponent’s views, demonstrating that the general population is not.

First Round: okiecowboy.

Second Round: Druid42 comes back with a crucial point, the current events that the general population reads while not being conspiracy theorists. Another good point is the diversity of the membership, geographically and from all walks of life which could represent a microcosm of the general population at large. This second post’s boat seemed to have left without okiecowboy, his post being brief and not really challenging.

Second Round: Druid42.

Third Round: Druid42 goes deeper in his point of view, stating guests are affecting the numbers previously brought forward by his opponent and again emphasizing on the membership’s diversity. This time, okiecowboy didn’t just get on the boat, he manoeuvred his way to a better argument, especially when stating that SOME of the general public believes but not ALL.

Third Round and therefore the Match: okiecowboy.

Thank you to both fighters for a very interesting read.

I give the debate to Druid42.

Even though Okiecowboy pointed out that some of the topics discussed on ATS are outside of what is considered normal, Druid42's counter-argument was excellent; highlighting the fact that it's not just the membership of ATS that reads the threads, it's also a vast number of non-members that partake in what ATS has to offer.

Druid42 also highlighted the fact that some of the most well-known members on this site are "experts" in areas such as archaeology, astronomy, graphics, etc...not just the fringe topics like UFOs and such.

But at the same time, Druid42 discussed how trends on ATS and hot topics on the forums can and do reflect the current state of mind within the general population, like gun control.

It was a tough debate to judge and I think that the debate went a little off-track from the original topic in certain spots, but overall it was a good debate.

Congratulations Druid42.

Its another tie...

And this is where the tie is broken...

Well,

This was an interesting debate, and I admit I was watching this one from it's inception, because when I first joined the site, the general consensus was that it was a very tiny segment of the overall population that was here, and some nutcases that had nowhere else to go. However, that has indeed changed over the years and while Cowboy made some very good points about niches, he fell short of the spirit of the topic, which was after all, does Does ATS represent a good slice of the population.

Druid brings up about exit polling and sampling, and does a very good job of this. It's something that Cowboy no matter how hard they try, cannot overcome and in the end, it's what swung this debate to Druid. The fact that just because it's a small sample, does not mean it's not a diverse, representative group that in our own way mirrors the population as a whole.

After all, even in a small office setting, there are the intellectuals, the goofballs, the nutcases, and the conspiracy theorists. While it may have been true at one point in the distant past that ATS was a niche site, it no longer is the case, and Druid did a stellar job of pointing that out.

Winner: Druid42

Winner: Druid42