Anyone fancy checking out my theory?

So I have been looking into alternative energy solutions a lot recently and to be honest I could fill a thread with all that I have learned and there are some really cool possibilities, but that is for another time... Right now I'd like to show you a project that I'm thinking of doing, it might end with just some experimentation or could go all the way, we'll see... I am not creating this thread to explain the technology used either as I will assume you know how it all works, I'm sure most of you do any way.

My idea is based on fuel cell technology and I see potential that is being wasted... Take this for example...



It is really awesome right, but why are they using fans to cool the fuel cell? This is wasted energy on 2 fronts, the first is you have to power the fans and the second is the heat energy you are disposing of. Surely there is a way to reclaim and use this potential energy? That is the proposed project in a nutshell...

I think that you can use another technology here, being thermoelectric generators! These... www.ebay.co.uk...

So essentially we stick these generators over as much of the fuel cell as possible and obviously finding the sweet spot of weight vs potential energy, I'm sure this is what everything will hinge on.

then we place heat pipe heat sink on the top of those, I'm not sure which will be the best approach to this, I have considered a small water pump and water cooling the heat sink but then it is more weight. Then I saw this... www.ebay.co.uk... onents_Fans_Heatsinks_SR&hash=item19d5b419ce and thought this type of thing could be the solution, it would require no power as it would stick out of the RC car and be air cooled when the car is traveling along. Or you could maybe force air into the car via an air scoop, either way you will lose a portion of energy to drag, that will have to be balance just like the weight issue...

The fuel cells put out a nice bit of heat as a waste product and with this kind of set up I don't see why we can't create a very nice temp difference with very little energy needed via drag/weight. Feed this energy into the battery just like the H cell does.

I hope you can visualize what I mean but if you are not sure just ask and I'll try to flesh it out a bit more...

As a side note this same idea can be upscaled to the larger fuel cells when heating and hot water isn't required...

What do you guys think? Will it work? Wouldn't it be interesting to find out? Oh and before all the "you can't break the laws of thermodynamics" I don't think this is, as the waste heat of the fuel cell is what we are using here. It is just aimed to increase efficiency, much like the larger fuels cells do by utilizing the waste heat to provide hot water. Btw when the larger fuel cells utilize the waste heat they can be as much as 95% efficient!!! I would be happy with 60-70% lol...

There's a number of free and clean energy solutions available, but unless they can make a profit the average joe won't be seeing them anytime soon.

reply to post by Ginga


But you are wrong because they are already being worked on as we speak and ARE seeing the light of day all over the place, but that is for the other thread I may make showing all the stuff they have right now!

This particular one isn't free energy anyway, you are using hydrogen to fuel this... The hydrogen could potentially be made with solar but again that is not the point of this thread... I want to discuss if my idea would work or not and maybe ideas as to improve it... Any thoughts on that?

You make a good point, I presume that recycled heat energy is used in lots of applications already, although nothing that I can think of, the idea of actually charging the cells is definitely the right idea to re-use said energy.

Could be a real money spinner if you can find a cost effective way to harness the waste heat, or if you are a little more down to earth it could be one of the many Technological improvements we are all crying out for.

reply to post by EdTheHat


I'm glad you see the potential but I'm a bit confused by "charging the cells"? This would be charging the battery or it could even be directly linked to the motor, I would think charging the battery would be better though. I would feed in just as the H cell does...

Yes heat waste is recovered in many many applications today but not enough at all... I mean you could fit this to full scale cars too to improve efficiency... Remember this isn't free energy but there is a solution for that and it is our human waste... But again that is for another thread, quite amazing though and being used today!

I really want to make this though and see how it would work... The car in the video does 30mph, can you imagine the cooling you could get form the heat sink? Even if you lost a little speed the run time would be greatly improved.

reply to post by Ginga


If I were to make one, I wouldn't be making it for profit. I don't want peoples money. I'd be making it so that I could save my own money. Over the course of 2 years, buying the pieces to make this would be like getting a 20% discount on my energy bills. Of course, I'd rather just construct a dozen windmills and set up a couple of magnet rotation generators along with a hydroelectric generator. If you know what you're doing and you have the junk laying around, you can make that kind of stuff for really cheap. And if you needed to, you could sell one or two for higher quality materials to add to the rest.

From someone who has been designing electro-mechanical systems their whole life, here is my two cents.

Fuel cells at this point are heavy, expensive and require a lot of maintenance. They are not ideal for automotive power supplies yet. One reason that most people are not aware of is that fuel cells require a significant ramp up and ramp down time. This means that when you step on the throttle there will be no substantial power gain for some time. When you step off of the throttle, the fuel cell is still consuming fuel and that energy has to be dumped somewhere. The logical solution is to put that energy into batterries and power the motor with them while they are charged by the fuel cell. The problem with that is that now you have the weight of the fuel cell and batteries and power transfer components. You also lose 30% of your energy efficiency when charging the batteries.

The thermocouples you refer to are heavy, expensive, and fail regularly. The energy production vs weight threshold in most applications is met before practicality. NASA has a long history of using these for deep space missions but it is out of necessity and they are really looking for better solutions. For the common person the cost of fuel cell and thermocouple array combined is not a strong competitor agains other power options.

And finally. In almost every application you will find that there are design compromises. There will almost always be something like waist heat, drag, transfer losses, etc that you have to choose to live with in order to accomplish your project specifications. It's the nature of the physical world we live in and the state of our technology to date.

I should add to my above post that these are just fair warnings. If it were not for experimenters and entrepreneurs like you, we wouldn't be living in a tech society at all. So by all means, continue to experiment and create and come up with new ways of doing things like this. occasionally you will hit on a better system and that is what it is all about. Good hunting!

reply to post by dainoyfb

From someone who has been designing electro-mechanical systems their whole life, here is my two cents.

Good to have you come in and comment...

Fuel cells at this point are heavy, expensive and require a lot of maintenance. They are not ideal for automotive power supplies yet. One reason that most people are not aware of is that fuel cells require a significant ramp up and ramp down time. This means that when you step on the throttle there will be no substantial power gain for some time. When you step off of the throttle, the fuel cell is still consuming fuel and that energy has to be dumped somewhere. The logical solution is to put that energy into batterries and power the motor with them while they are charged by the fuel cell. The problem with that is that now you have the weight of the fuel cell and batteries and power transfer components. You also lose 30% of your energy efficiency when charging the batteries.

Yes of course they are but you are being a little negative... Imagine if when any tech came out people thought like you? We would have no progress because no-one would be an early adopter and therefore the price would not come down and production would grind to a stop! Fortunately not everyone is. lol

On the bright side the prices are coming down rapidly and reliability is going up. Besides the plans are out there to make your own... Btw fedex and google and at&t already use fuel cells today! As well as a university that made a 1MW application, they even heat the pool across the street. lol...

Now imagine coupling that with home made biogas? Use your waste to power your home! All this tech already exists...

As for the thermoelectric generators, there have been developments there too with a firm creating pipes that generate electric, can you imagine that? hot pipe on the inside cold water carried on the outside! They are talking about using it in much the way I describe all be it on a larger scale...

Also this idea is more so for a proof of concept than what you would have in the real world, because of course you would have your fuel cell at home powered by methane and then have a battery powered car...

And finally. In almost every application you will find that there are design compromises. There will almost always be something like waist heat, drag, transfer losses, etc that you have to choose to live with in order to accomplish your project specifications. It's the nature of the physical world we live in and the state of our technology to date.

Of course hence why I mentioned them... I was hoping that would stop people telling me that they would be an issue. lol

I really think that this could would and I really don't think they are that heavy compared to the fans that are cooling the cell, and the fans are also using power so lowering the efficiency any way... I guess the only thing to really do is try it and see! lol... Oh and you can buy different quality thermo generators, obviously you would go for a good one... Oh and also with this set up it may be possible to use a smaller battery thus saving some of the weight issues...

I would really love your mind to solve the problems and not only create them... Even if just for a bit of fun.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


What about the idea of biogas coupled with a fuel cell? You can get methane powered fuel cells... You can make methane from your poop... That will work 24/7 and the fuel side of it is really really simple and easy to do! You can even bury it underground if you wish, in fact it would be better if you did as cold temps slow the process.

wind and all that is okay but it's not that dependable... I think it would be great as supplemental energy though, every little helps.

reply to post by mee30


Wind isn't dependable, but human feces isn't very efficient either.

reply to post by dainoyfb

And finally. In almost every application you will find that there are design compromises. There will almost always be something like waist heat, drag, transfer losses, etc that you have to choose to live with in order to accomplish your project specifications. It's the nature of the physical world we live in and the state of our technology to date.

Yes you should of then I wouldn't of had to tell you off!

I take what you're saying on board but I think there is a balance that can be struck to get you the best millage for your buck, on a rc car... Would it scale up to a full size car? Maybe, maybe even a standard engine to power the battery instead of the alternator...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


How so? I would say getting any energy out of something that usually gets lots of energy spent on it is super efficient... What I mean by that is they treat the waste yeah so they can dispose of it, that process must take lots of energy... With this system you wouldn't spend that energy and instead create energy... And what are you limited to? When they dig foundations of new homes just dig deeper and lay in the tanks, job done... The tanks can be as big as you like! But like I say, why not use both? Here watch this...

reply to post by dainoyfb




This one is for you...

Those Peltier Modules are NEAT!

I bought one and put an LED on it. I use it to put my hot coffee on and the Peltier Module takes the heat from the coffee mug and lights up the LED.

Neat desk toy to get people talking.


ANY source of heat, and those cheap modules will turn it into power for you.

reply to post by Pervius


Yeah the link I provided was just to show what they are. Like anything else if you want it to last or do a specific job you need the right part. But the better quality ones are there so...

reply to post by mee30


I'm not being negative. I'm being realistic and trying to portray to you some of the technical challenges that people have been facing with these methods. People who have been trying these methods for much longer than you and who have access to substantial resources. You can be super positive and believe all you want that you can leap over a skyscraper in a single bound but at the end of the day it isn't going to happen. A couple of uninversity experiments do not make for a real world solution in a different application. Anybody can argue that technology used in one application will theoretically work in another. When you've got a working unit going and the numbers jive with third party testing then fine, you've met your design goal. But until then....meh.

Good luck telling off everybody on your thread who offers advice that you don't like. I've certainly lost all interest in contributing.

reply to post by dainoyfb

I'm not being negative. I'm being realistic and trying to portray to you some of the technical challenges that people have been facing with these methods. People who have been trying these methods for much longer than you and who have access to substantial resources. You can be super positive and believe all you want that you can leap over a skyscraper in a single bound but at the end of the day it isn't going to happen.

Nope you are being negative and I will show you why in a minute... I already talked about the challenges I would face, I was well aware but you still felt the need to repeat them, lol... You really make me want to do this now just to stick it to you!

A couple of uninversity experiments do not make for a real world solution in a different application.

Here is where I will prove your negativity... This statement is absolute rubbish! Here check this out...

www.google.co.uk... 1AXnxIDoDA

Edit: Can't seem to link to pdf but it is the 9th one on this list titled "
2010 Fuel Cell Technologies Market Report - EERE - U.S. ..."

It is a link to a PDF showing you the sales and businesses that use it... Giants like fedex and google and at&t use it! 22,000 japanese homes have them! There are countries all over the world using them right now but you say it is not a real world solution... Sir, I respect you I do and I thank you for taking the time to come to my thread, but you are wrong. This is a real world solution and it is happening right now! But unless you do some digging you would never know... If I thought you would be interested I will go through my history and show you all the things I have found and I think it is astonishing that it is not being jumped on by everyone!

This is a real solution to cutting our usage dramatically, and like I have said couple it with biogas from human waste and I think we have a winner! Even if the waste doesn't cover everything it will be a great help and we will have lots of fertilizer too!

Anybody can argue that technology used in one application will theoretically work in another.

Of course, anybody can arguing anything, what was the point of this other than being negative?

When you've got a working unit going and the numbers jive with third party testing then fine, you've met your design goal. But until then....meh.

Jesus christ buddy this is supposed to be a thread to throw ideas around! Now you demand a working unit from me? Really, come on! Shake off this negative vibe you have...

Good luck telling off everybody on your thread who offers advice that you don't like. I've certainly lost all interest in contributing.

For crying out loud you big baby! It was a bloody joke! Hence the laughing at the end! And you even acknowledged that you should of added that so my comments were justified even by YOU!

Wow, honestly this place is beyond a joke sometimes, just wanted to kick some ideas around! I KNOW there are things to overcome! I PUT THAT IN THE OP, did you even read it all?

Honestly you contributed nothing other than repeating what I'd already said, absolutely ridiculous!

Edit: I still love ya though and think a fresh start would be great! I can show you all the cool stuff they're doing now, it really is exciting! It doesn't have to be doom and gloom all the time ya know...

reply to post by dainoyfb


Just found this little gem for ya...

Soon, cars to run on human waste?

From the article

WELLINGTON: Cars that run on a by-product of human sewage could replace petrol vehicles within a span of three years, according to a report.

Here and now my man! Honestly soon the damn is about to break and there is no suppressing this stuff, it is here and it is getting better and better... It is what everybody is looking for but it seems that they just don't want to see it... Why? I don't get it...

Edit: Wow, and now this! Honestly everywhere I look regarding this tech there is more and more coming to light! To be honest I need to do one thread that puts it all together! But there is just so much!

Microbial Fuel Cell Latrine Promises Sanitation, Power

From the article

Microbial fuel cells are a variant of hydrogen fuel cells. These energy systems use bacteria to consume organic waste and produce methane or hydrogen gas. The gases produced by the bacteria are then used in the fuel cell to generate electricity. Microbial fuel cells are often hailed for their ability to address two issues at once — energy and waste — and do so efficiently. There may be a way to make the energy systems even more efficient than they currently are, however, which may also make them more attractive for commercial use.

She says that this can be used in place that have low sanitation, why? Why not use it anywhere? Why pay someone to take it away if you can use it! Crazy... And this fuel cell isn't using the methane.


How about this too

Microsoft is Full of "It" -- Feces-Derived Biogas That Is

From the article...

The $5.5M USD data center, funded by Microsoft FuelCell Energy and the State of Wyoming, is attached to the Dry Creek Water Reclamation Facility and takes advantage of the Facility's most abundant resource -- wastewater. Wastewater in scientific terms is a slew of water, human feces, and other things flushed down the toilet. When captured filtered, the "solids" slowly outgas carbon dioxide and methane thanks to their population of methane producing bacteria. When paired with a methane-fuel cell, electricity and heat can be produced from the methane gas.

Amazing stuff...

Now I know you may say that it doesn't really relate to my project and you would be right, I can't show you what I'm talking about because it hasn't been done as far as I can see, yet... Although that new pipe tech is looking very promising... The main idea anyway is efficiency, we really haven't been THAT efficient, but all that is about to change, and the good thing is we can get in on the action!


Sorry just had to add this from that last article...

Microsoft research program manager Sean James comments, "A person is consuming data and that person’s waste is going to power the data center. It’s been a mind shift. When we smell that methane at a water treatment plant, we realize we’re smelling energy."

You don't say...


Edit: But wait, there's more...

Waste water harnessed to make electricity and plastics

From the article

TREATING waste water is energy intensive. In the US, it sucks up the equivalent output of four of the country's biggest power plants every year. But it needn't be such a drain on resources - soon it might be able to earn its keep. A team led by Hong Liu from Oregon State University in Corvallis has plans for microbial fuel cells that will reclaim energy from waste water and produce around 2.87 watts per litre of waste water. That is almost double the amount of electrical power usual for such a cell.

You see the advancements in fuel cells? Do you see the future yet? Please tell me you are getting a little excited?