"O People of the Book!"

reply to post by MichiganSwampBuck


and then the angel kept coming for 23 years to this illiterate man and not just in dark cave, with arabic verses that ashamed the pro poets of that time yet its not poetry.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by racasan

 

not really! It just means that Allah dint stop the founder/s of christianity. It would have basically violated free will you see.

Free will – ok

So allah through deception accidentally creates a new religion that had never existed before, one that has more followers than islam and is based on the worst sin in islam – Shirk (I’m not seeing the free will in this?)

And

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]

This makes it look like Allah thinks the trinity in christianity is god/Jesus/Mary!

Its enough to make a thinking man wonder if allah isn’t just the sock puppet of a 7th century desert war lord who couldn’t be bothered to do some basic research or even think his story through

reply to post by racasan

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

This makes it look like Allah thinks the trinity in christianity is god/Jesus/Mary!

That verse isn't talking particularly about the trinity. Jesus and Mary were being venerated as gods.

It explains the icon of Jesus and Mary that Mohammad found in the Kaba. He had all the other images erased but spared the one of Jesus and Mary from destruction.

Icons of Jesus and Mary are common even today.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'm confused (again).

That verse isn't talking particularly about the trinity. Jesus and Mary were being venerated as gods.

It explains the icon of Jesus and Mary that Mohammad found in the Kaba. He had all the other images erased but spared the one of Jesus and Mary from destruction.

I thought earlier in the thread it was pointed out that Jesus was a prophet at the same level as Abraham, Moses, and a bunch of other guys. So how does Jesus get special treatment here? It seems as though Jesus must at least have been superior to all other prophets, perhaps even equal to Allah.

And why would an icon of Jesus be saved when every other image (including Mohammed's) is forbidden under the Quran? I don't have any hatred, but I've got enough confusion for six people.

reply to post by racasan

This makes it look like Allah thinks the trinity in christianity is god/Jesus/ Mary!

No it doesnt. Unless you want to Ignore that Mary is worshipped in many cultures eg. In south america.
If its said dont take for worship Jesus pbuh and St. Patrick. It does mean they make trinity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It explains the icon of Jesus and Mary that Mohammad found in the Kaba. He had all the other images erased but spared the one of Jesus and Mary from destruction.

hey Sc0rpi0n!
I dont think i ever heard that. Looks like a story made up by someone with a soft corner for christianity or a story circulated among a community of christians. Where did you read it? Is it an Authentic hadith?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

That verse isn't talking particularly about the trinity. Jesus and Mary were being venerated as gods.

It explains the icon of Jesus and Mary that Mohammad found in the Kaba. He had all the other images erased but spared the one of Jesus and Mary from destruction.

Icons of Jesus and Mary are common even today.

Ok so you say this:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?"

Isn’t a reference to the christian trinity – then you better let this guy know

The tafsir* of al jalalayn says:

They are indeed disbelievers those who say, ‘God is the third of three’, gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, and they [who claim this] are a Christian sect; when there is no god but the One God. If they do not desist from what they say, when they declare a trinity, and profess His Oneness, those of them who disbelieve, that is, [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire

.
www.altafsir.com...


tafsir*
en.wikipedia.org...
Tafsīr (Arabic: تفسير‎, tafsīr, "interpretation") is the Arabic word for exegesis
en.wikipedia.org...
Tafsīr al-Jalālayn is recognised as one of the most popular exegeses of the Qur'an today

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

That verse isn't talking particularly about the trinity. Jesus and Mary were being venerated as gods.

It explains the icon of Jesus and Mary that Mohammad found in the Kaba. He had all the other images erased but spared the one of Jesus and Mary from destruction.

Icons of Jesus and Mary are common even today.

Ok so you say this:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?"

Isn’t a reference to the christian trinity – then you better let this guy know

The tafsir* of al jalalayn says:

They are indeed disbelievers those who say, ‘God is the third of three’, gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, and they [who claim this] are a Christian sect; when there is no god but the One God. If they do not desist from what they say, when they declare a trinity, and profess His Oneness, those of them who disbelieve, that is, [those] who are fixed upon unbelief, shall suffer a painful chastisement, namely, the Fire

.
www.altafsir.com...


tafsir*
en.wikipedia.org...
Tafsīr (Arabic: تفسير‎, tafsīr, "interpretation") is the Arabic word for exegesis
en.wikipedia.org...
Tafsīr al-Jalālayn is recognised as one of the most popular exegeses of the Qur'an today

yes "a sect" in christianity, read this

This verse of the Qur'an in fact shows knowledge about one of the other
early sects of Christianity. One of their
documents is known by early Christian
writers as the "Gospel of the
Hebrews," which was a generic name
they gave to any early gospel account in Hebrew. In the fragments we now
have this Gospel (known from quotes
by early Christian writers), it explicitly
identifies Mary with the Holy Spirit. It is
this kind of deifying of both Jesus and
Mary which the Qur'an is opposing in the above verse. Here is an excerpt from this Gospel, as
paraphrased by Cyril of Jerusalem (4th
century): It is written in the Gospel of the
Hebrews that when Christ wanted to come to earth,
the Good Father summoned a mighty
power in the heavens who was called
Michael, and entrusted Christ to his
care. The power came down into the
world, and it was called Mary, and Christ was in her womb for seven
months. From this excerpt, it is clear that the
religious sect who accepted this text
believed that both Jesus and Mary
(may peace be with them) existed in
heaven before coming to earth. Mary
was a power who came into the world. The Christian writer Origen (3rd
century) also writes: Those who give credence to the
Gospel of the Hebrews, in which the
Savior says, "Just now my mother, the holy spirit,
took me by one of my hairs and
brought me to Tabor, the great
mountain,"

reply to post by logical7

the "Gospel of the Hebrews," which was a generic name they gave to any early gospel account in Hebrew. In the fragments we now have this Gospel (known from quotes
by early Christian writers)

so after having a look into this gospel of Hebrews thing there seems be only fragments of it left - so who knows what was in it

but if I am remembering my bible correctly it was the holy spirit that came down and er…. got Mary pregnant – so it would have to be a very odd Christian sect that thought Mary got her self pregnant – right?

reply to post by racasan


what i can tell you is, what you have now is a cleaned up version of Christianity. The Bible has been interpreted and compiled to suit that version. And the other stories/myths etc have died with time.
If you say Holy Spirit caused the conception of Jesus pbuh then isnt Holy Spirit the father??! Then why the Father implicated as father? And if Holy Spirit just did what the Father told then Holy Spirit is under the command of Father and hence not equal in the triune. Going further, the son of Holy Spirit will be also under the command of Father as Holy Spirit cannot create an offspring higher in command than itself only equal or lower.
In short, Christian theology took centuries to evolve to what its now and still trying to explain itself.

reply to post by logical7


Wow – finally something we can agree on

Or maybe not given I don’t believe there ever was a Jesus
www.jesusneverexisted.com...

reply to post by racasan


lets go back one more step. Do you believe God exists?
I know about the doubt about Jesus pbuh even existing. I believe that he did, although agree to nothing of the christian theology claiming him as god.
I am a muslim.
So back to you, are you a theist?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by racasan

 

lets go back one more step. Do you believe God exists?
I know about the doubt about Jesus pbuh even existing. I believe that he did, although agree to nothing of the christian theology claiming him as god.
I am a muslim.
So back to you, are you a theist?

I find some deist ideas interesting but if I understand your question then no I don’t believe in any god(s)

On the other hand I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory and I really like examining other peoples beliefs and ideas to see if they make any kind of sense, that’s why I am posting on a conspiracy website

I wouldn’t go to a dawah web site and do this but I assume that if the religious post here then they must be expecting their ideas to be examined – or else why post on a site whose motto is deny ignorance – right?

Does that help?

reply to post by racasan

I assume that if the religious post here then they must be expecting their ideas to be examined – or else why post on a site whose motto is deny ignorance – right? Does that help?

i completely agree and thanks for clearing your view/belief.
I also see that we agree about what doesnt make sense in christianity but i also know that you find similar problems with islam. Hope you are ready to examine it all together till things make sense.