Liars; Lies, Truth and Discernment.

Since a lie is the opposite of truth, how can we discern a lie? I've always thought in order to test or discover the truth, we must ask questions.

One thing I've noticed throughout life, is that if you ask a liar something related to themselves, or point out inconsistencies, they usually become upset, or want to point out something you yourself did wrongly. I myself at times in my life have done this when I was having my lies or inconsistencies pointed out. This is partially the reason I became so aware of it.

Now it can certainly be annoying to have someone accuse you if you are indeed not lying, and they are misconstruing your words. One thing I notice from reading about Jesus, is that he never ever hesitated to teach or answer a question. Through the spirit of his Father, he answered things very directly, even when he used parables.

I have met several people who proclaim to be speaking with words or assistance from Father, but they become agitated or seem offended when I point out inconsistencies. At this point they seem to want to "punish", or "teach a lesson", similar to the way parents teach their kids a lesson. I wonder according to the teachings of our Father, if this is of him? In my heart I feel it is devoid of compassion and truth, but rather as that of a totalitarian mindset. If someone is genuinely questioning in order to find the truth, should we hold that against them and "teach them a lesson"? Would it not be more in the ways of Christ to open our hearts completely and converse with them openly and without judgement?

I wonder others opinions and experiences on this matter.

reply to post by Jameliel

I have met several people who proclaim to be speaking with words or assistance from Father, but they become agitated or seem offended when I point out inconsistencies.

They get "agitated" because you've made these people realise what they've been taught and believed most of their lives is incorrect... thus leaving them with a feeling of betrayal.

Something that can be avoided with reading instead of listening to preachers...

I believe in some cases this is the reason, anymore?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Jameliel

 

I have met several people who proclaim to be speaking with words or assistance from Father, but they become agitated or seem offended when I point out inconsistencies.

They get "agitated" because you've made these people realise what they've been taught and believed most of their lives is incorrect... thus leaving them with a feeling of betrayal.

Something that can be avoided with reading instead of listening to preachers...

reply to post by Jameliel


Excellent thread, Jameliel.

I believe we are talking two different areas here.

The liar and their lies and what a particular religion teaches.

Liars are more than likely inconsistant with the lies they tell. When confronted with that they have nothing to back up their words so they become defensive. They really have no other alternative. They apparently cannot admit they have lied.

A person who professes a certain faith and becomes defensive when challenged regarding that faith either really knows what they believe and can explain it properly or their profession of faith is merely surface profession. When challenged regarding their beliefs they cannot discuss it rationally because they really do not know what their faith entails. Do these people read and study the Bible to know what the faith they are professing is all about? I doubt it.

reply to post by Jameliel


People don't like being told that they are wrong.

If someone really believes something that is in fact false, and you point that out to them, in most cases, they will NOT thank you for it. Instead, they will be mad at you.

Remember this:
You cannot teach anything to anybody.
You can only help them and assist them to find the truth, and see the light for themselves.
They have to come to the conclusion themselves, ...otherwise they will NEVER make it their own.

Just my 2c.

Cheers
QMask

When not even trying to teach someone, but instead asking them questions, and they in turn become withdrawn or seem they want to punish, this is when I have a hard time seeing the truth in them.

Originally posted by QMask
reply to post by Jameliel

 

People don't like being told that they are wrong.

If someone really believes something that is in fact false, and you point that out to them, in most cases, they will NOT thank you for it. Instead, they will be mad at you.

Remember this:
You cannot teach anything to anybody.
You can only help them and assist them to find the truth, and see the light for themselves.
They have to come to the conclusion themselves, ...otherwise they will NEVER make it their own.

Just my 2c.

Cheers
QMask

reply to post by Jameliel

Since a lie is the opposite of truth, how can we discern a lie? I've always thought in order to test or discover the truth, we must ask questions.

One man's truth is another man's lie. Who determines what truth is? If no one set the order for differentiating between truth and lie how then can you discern between the two? If no one set the order, then there are no truths and there are no lies, then what have you? Truths and lies would be nothing but an illusion. Imagine what a world like that would be. Order does not come from chaos.

Chaos is exactly what you have described. What is your point?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Jameliel

 

Since a lie is the opposite of truth, how can we discern a lie? I've always thought in order to test or discover the truth, we must ask questions.

One man's truth is another man's lie. Who determines what truth is? If no one set the order for differentiating between truth and lie how then can you discern between the two? If no one set the order, then there are no truths and there are no lies, then what have you? Truths and lies would be nothing but an illusion. Imagine what a world like that would be. Order does not come from chaos.

edit on 31-12-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

My point is God sets sets the order in place for us and establishes what is truth and what is lie. Proof right there of his existence. If he didn't exist there would be no order, nothing but chaos. Not even this world would exist, because it took order to create it.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
My point is God sets sets the order in place for us and establishes what is truth and what is lie. Proof right there of his existence. If he didn't exist there would be no order, nothing but chaos. Not even this world would exist, because it took order to create it.

Actualy it took Christ to create it.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Revelation 00170 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
You speak of the Father and some speak of the Mother but all things were made by Him Christ Jesus.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
My point is God sets sets the order in place for us and establishes what is truth and what is lie. Proof right there of his existence. If he didn't exist there would be no order, nothing but chaos. Not even this world would exist, because it took order to create it.

Grand Order Designed as called by some. The truth the lie describes each other as parameters of a locale of thinking. The better the worse (more intense the feeling emotion) the better a result. Lately, as in the last 3000 years have been on a down side (War, implementations of LAW subjugated human). At this point I think an ant colony without its queen. There is order here; look at natural laws for some reason the Human ignores it. Is this the Free Will Aspect at Work not realizing its shooting itself in the foot?

reply to post by 1PLA1


Completely agree with what you have said about this being two issues. This doesn't just apply to religion though it can extend to anything someone is passionate about and instills loyalty. Think politics or sports for example. The same can be said of people who do not believe in anything spiritual and you will see that they also have this same reaction when confronted with someone of a religious persuasion in a debate.

It takes some arrogance to attempt to "correct" someone or question their views. I freely admit to doing this in some instances. Humility and respect is the key in these types of discussions to trying to maintain honesty amongst parties and avoiding judgements, this is hard I am sure as we all have ego to battle with. I try to suppress my ego and keep in mind that it is not for my own glory but for the Lords and out of a sense of compassion for my fellow man.

Discernment comes from within and from a religious stand point it is Gods will/truth/objective reality presenting itself to us in my opinion.

In matters of faith everyone needs to remember that it is going to ultimately be between us individually and our creator.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Jameliel

 

Since a lie is the opposite of truth, how can we discern a lie? I've always thought in order to test or discover the truth, we must ask questions.

One man's truth is another man's lie. Who determines what truth is? If no one set the order for differentiating between truth and lie how then can you discern between the two? If no one set the order, then there are no truths and there are no lies, then what have you? Truths and lies would be nothing but an illusion. Imagine what a world like that would be. Order does not come from chaos.

edit on 31-12-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Opposite of truth is fallacy. Truth is eternal as in a known thing intrinsic not having to discover; the white goo between the Oreo Cookie is a truth a given a not even having to be determined it is there and exists everytime you eat one (or could truth be TRUST). Fallacy; a mistaken idea. A Delusive error. A lie is a spoken thing by a human. Nomanclature prevails; getting the human out of the equation; then becomes a beautiful philisophical arguement. Unfortunately we are gross bodies not etheric and have no time to ponder ourselves in such capacity (because we are too occupied otherwise).

Chaos has order and it is has been described scientifcally; best known Fractal. There is a design to all of this including ourselves in the equate. You alone determine your own truth, and if someone somewhere concures with your known you are fortunate; as it is so elusive and hard sought. One individual with pure will and intent can change this world (it does not take religious fallacy to accomplish it).

Originally posted by Jameliel
Since a lie is the opposite of truth, how can we discern a lie? I've always thought in order to test or discover the truth, we must ask questions.

One thing I've noticed throughout life, is that if you ask a liar something related to themselves, or point out inconsistencies, they usually become upset, or want to point out something you yourself did wrongly. I myself at times in my life have done this when I was having my lies or inconsistencies pointed out. This is partially the reason I became so aware of it.

Now it can certainly be annoying to have someone accuse you if you are indeed not lying, and they are misconstruing your words. One thing I notice from reading about Jesus, is that he never ever hesitated to teach or answer a question. Through the spirit of his Father, he answered things very directly, even when he used parables.

I have met several people who proclaim to be speaking with words or assistance from Father, but they become agitated or seem offended when I point out inconsistencies. At this point they seem to want to "punish", or "teach a lesson", similar to the way parents teach their kids a lesson. I wonder according to the teachings of our Father, if this is of him? In my heart I feel it is devoid of compassion and truth, but rather as that of a totalitarian mindset. If someone is genuinely questioning in order to find the truth, should we hold that against them and "teach them a lesson"? Would it not be more in the ways of Christ to open our hearts completely and converse with them openly and without judgement?

I wonder others opinions and experiences on this matter.

Most men are of religions that still require more than love. When you challenge the things that go against truth they become defensive because they themselves have believed the lie. They have convinced themselves that their lie is the truth. So it is no longer a lie they are defending but their faith. You are a man after love so the lie is not found in you. I am not saying you won't lie, I am simply saying that you have not believed their lie.

They are unable to provide you with the answers you seek because the lie has placed a veil over their eyes. This veil covers the truth so that although they can hear they cannot understand it. I believe the time is coming where the veil of religion will be replaced by the mind of Christ and the heart of God. So that we may live in truth and peace.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the lord and that through him man may receive freedom from the lie. A free gift for all those who believe and follow love.