Puma Punka is irrefutable evidence of extraterrestrials

Originally posted by thetiler
That is truly one of the most important places if there is a possibility of ancient aliens. To not entertain even a thought of that is a bit immature in the thought process really.

Sure. A lot of things are possible.

However, it seems to me that the OP is not willing to entertain the thought that the people of ancient South America built these things by themselves (without alien help).

We don't know how they built this. I suppose that since we don't know, then "Aliens" is a possibility. However, the fact that we don't know how they did it is not "irrefutable evidence of extraterrestrials".

So, I guess the Chinese (humans) didn't create the Great Wall of China either. After all, it's so big you can see it from space. Humans could never do that grand of anything thousands of years ago, we don't know how they did it, must be Aliens.

This is the formula used by AA. Basically, "I don't understand, therefore, must be Aliens".

reply to post by FormerSkeptic


Dear OP

If you want to believe this 'video' as irrefutable evidence then you might be already falling into the web of tall tales that was spun years ago by the 'lunatic fringe' (aka cooper/lear/dean/etc) of UFOLOGY.

These so called 'TV Shows' are not research . these are geared to increase shock value and thus they edited it like they found something 'strange' on the ruin. Let face it, modern man tend to view ancients as stupid and cave dwelling. Modern man dont realize that there are geniouses in every age.

its sad if these kind of videos now ruining people's understanding of the REAL UFO PHENOMENA thats not even defined as 'aliens' yet.


My Opinion :

This is the kind of fairytale thats now ruining the serious UFOLOGY investigation in USA. The UFO Phenomena are not even known and 'alien' is just one of the hypothesis (ETH) which is not the hypothesis that most serious UFOLOGIST hold. Most serious UFOLOGIST tend to prefer EDH (extra dimensional hypothesis) that means these entities are beings that live among us but invisible (aka different dimension if you want it to sound scientific)..

the massive push toward nuts-n-bolt and alien hypothesis in US UFOLOGY are breeding more and more crazier theories. Since then they keep adding more and more to increase the shock value of the story. Crashed saucer, Goverment Conspiracy, Military UFO capture, Underground Bases , Moon Base, etc..

In reality, the UFO Phenomena are not even defined as to what it is YET..

I would like to believe aliens have visited earth and we will meet them someday. Unfortunately, there is no real proof that they ever have visited Earth. There are certainly anomalies and other artifacts that defy logical explanation, but, there is not any direct line that indicates aliens are responsible. If aliens have and are visiting Earth, they could probably provide answers to many of the great mysteries.

Here is my big problem with alien visitation. Transportation! As easy as Star Trek makes it look, there was a nice segment on warp travel on the Universe Show a while back and I did significant additional reading. Here are some issues which are pretty sobering:

First, the energy to create a warp drive and bend space is greater than that of a star. Even a star only bends space a little. The super massive black hole in the center of our galaxy doesn't bend it enough that we are all sucked in. Therefore, the first issue is obtaining and managing sufficient energy to create a space warp.

Second, even if that could be managed, you would likely need to start the warp drive deep in interstellar space since bending space near your home planet and your home star would likely destroy them and the entirety of the civilization on the planet. Similarly, if you traveled to close to a star or planet on the journey, you would also destroy it. Therefore, the ship would need to likely stop in interstellar space as its destination and somehow travel via another propulsion system to the final planet destination. Therefore, there are huge practical issues with managing a warp ship even if one can be built and finishing the journey.

Third, the chances of destroying yourself when experimenting with such a vehicle and energy source are high. Therefore, while theoretically possible, I severely doubt that warp travel has been mastered by anyone, no matter how many millions or billions of years they are ahead of us.

Assuming I am right about the above, that means travel between stars is going to be limited to the nearby neighborhood, 50 - 100 light years. Even that will take massive amounts of effort and resources. I firmly believe given the number of starts and planets in our galaxy alone, there must be intelligent life in our galaxy. Carl Sagan once estimated the number of planets in our galaxy with intelligent life to be around 1million, albeit, that number has been heavily disputed as being too high. Also, what is intelligent? If he is right, there are about 100,000 stars within 100 light years. that means there is only 1 intelligent civilizations within that 50 - 100 light year radius, i.e. us, statistically. Obviously, a lot a guess work, but, it shows at least based on some educated guesses how remote the possibility of intelligent alien visitation is.

Ultimately, I think interstellar travel is required for the long term survival of the species as our star will die someday. That is the most compelling argument that aliens have visited our world. But, given the difficulties I have pointed out above, I don't think it is likely or probable that aliens do or can regularly visit earth. Rather, they may have passed by once or twice in the last 3 - 5,000 years which has resulted in the stories in the bible or other legends/myths around the world.

For mankind, I think in the next million years we will develop technology to be able to travel at say 1/2 light speed and be able to send mankind to stars within 20 light years. In the next 100 years I think most of the planets within 50 light years of the earth will be identified and whether they have water and are within the goldilocks zone will be determined. There will probably be 50 - 100 of these planets or moons. Ultimately, the planet may have the resources to send one ship to ten of the most promising worlds within 20 light years or so. These will be one way trips to start mankind on another world. The chances of success are probably less than 25% per ship. Therefore, in a million years, humankind may exist on 2 or 3 other worlds in different solar systems.

Finally, I think the most promising technology we are aware of today is quantum entanglement as a communication device. Perhaps that is the true test of being a technologically superior race, not the ability to master interstellar travel, but, to master interstellar communication. When this is accomplished, we may find there are some other worlds willing to speak with us that have similar questions and will be able to definitively answer the question of space travel, aliens and the experience of other world civilizations. I just hope I live long enough to experience that.

To the disclosure fanatics and Steven Greer's of the world, I wanted to believe you, I tried to believe you, but, the evidence simply isn't there. I have spent the better part of ten years looking and went from a blind believer to a much more critical reader.

Thoughts?

I love how people on both sides claim proof solely based on videos. I visited Puma Punku, Tiwanaku, Machu Picchu and Sacsayhuaman and all I still have is an opinion.

These sites are all proof that the tech to build these places is a complete mystery. The biggest mystery about Puma Punku is how the damn place was destroyed! It literally looks like a nuke or something just as powerful leveled the place.

In my own opinion...either aliens or we were actually advanced at one time in history, but in a different way.

But that's it. No proof. Just a humble opinion.

Originally posted by Krakatoa
So, I guess the Chinese (humans) didn't create the Great Wall of China either. After all, it's so big you can see it from space. Humans could never do that grand of anything thousands of years ago, we don't know how they did it, must be Aliens.

This is the formula used by AA. Basically, "I don't understand, therefore, must be Aliens".

Depends what you mean with "visible from space"... The apparent width of the Great Wall from the moon is the same as that of a human hair viewed from 2 miles away. Not surprisingly, no lunar astronaut has ever claimed seeing the Great Wall from the moon.

Puma Punku is irrefutable evidence of quality masonry in antiquity.

Nothing more.

Originally posted by draknoir2
Puma Punku is irrefutable evidence of quality masonry in antiquity.

Nothing more.

Evidence of masonry techniques previously thought to be impossible for the time it was built.

..but I think it was built by men.

My personal theory is that much of ancient tech knowledge was kept secret by the guilds/sects that passed the knowledge on to members only. Ancient knowledge of electricity is probably a good example; some believe that the ancient Egyptians possessed knowledge of how to make and power light bulbs but that knowledge was only possessed by priests of a certain sect.

However, being a stone cutter myself, I find it very difficult to understand how the blocks at Pumapunku were cut without modern tools such as diamond sintered blades, etc... and an advanced knowledge of mathematics and engineering.

It's a mystery that may never be solved....

Originally posted by loOranks

Originally posted by Krakatoa
So, I guess the Chinese (humans) didn't create the Great Wall of China either. After all, it's so big you can see it from space. Humans could never do that grand of anything thousands of years ago, we don't know how they did it, must be Aliens.

This is the formula used by AA. Basically, "I don't understand, therefore, must be Aliens".

Depends what you mean with "visible from space"... The apparent width of the Great Wall from the moon is the same as that of a human hair viewed from 2 miles away. Not surprisingly, no lunar astronaut has ever claimed seeing the Great Wall from the moon.

Space can loosely be defined as starting approx 65 miles above sea-level here on Earth. Being viewed from space does not require being approx 238,900 miles away, on the moon (which I never claimed). That seems to be a straw-man argument on your part, and an attempt to derail my point.

So, my statement still stands that the Great Wall of China is visible from space, at approx 65 miles above sea-level.

Originally posted by draknoir2
Puma Punku is irrefutable evidence of quality masonry in antiquity.

Nothing more.

That's being rather disingenuous. To achieve "quality" you need tools far superior to what archaeologists claim were available to those living then in Peru. They conveniently ignore the fact that the Incas themselves said that they found this superior architecture built from closely fitting stones without mortar when they arrived on the scene of these ancient cities and added to it with their second-rate copies.

Your statement ignores the real problem posed by these sites like Puma Punku. It's not the quality of the masonry but the fact that this quality could not have been achieved with the technology that archaeologists believe existed then. Something is missing here.

It's irrefutable evidence that archaeology is wrong about the ancient past of South America.

Originally posted by micpsi

Originally posted by draknoir2
Puma Punku is irrefutable evidence of quality masonry in antiquity.

Nothing more.

That's being rather disingenuous. To achieve "quality" you need tools far superior to what archaeologists claim were available to those living then in Peru.

So says you.

Just because you can't explain how something was done does not mean it couldn't be done. And it was done.


I recall of a show that investigated the "mysterious" Pre-Columbian stone spheres of Costa Rica. The Ancient Alien crowd claimed they were far too perfect to have been made by the hands of mere humans.

Well, turns out they weren't. After measuring the sphericity of one of the balls with a laser, they had some local guy try to duplicate it with just a hammer stone, string, and sticks... and he came close to matching the "perfection" of the original.

Claiming "irrefutable evidence of extraterrestrials" where there is none is disingenuous.

reply to post by FormerSkeptic

Jumping up and saying it's "irrefutable evidence" of aliens visiting Earth, is one of the reasons people mock those with an alien belief. Basing things off what is said on a biased tv show, internet websites, or by so called "experts" that sell books on the subject, is naive. It unfortunately shows how people are so easily manipulated by the words of others. You obviously want to believe so badly, that common sense is tossed by the wayside. Use your own mind and try not to be swayed so easily by what other people say or write. Maybe then, you'll come to a more realistic conclusion.

reply to post by Blarneystoner


If you had watched the video debunking the site you would see they found casts where the forged copper and nickel chisel so yes they did have the tools to build those and almost every large stone had drag marks and slots for ropes so they could be placed. AA just blatantly lied about everything. The stone was a form of sandstone not marble. Just more lies so they could sell books and the site was dated incorrectly. I would like for it have been proof but it is only proof that man was more advanced than we had thought.

reply to post by winofiend

Nice post.

For those who think aliens built ancient monuments, please reconsider...

The past has a lot to teach us. All of our technology makes us think we got it all figured out. But time and again as we explore history we find things they could teach us. Much of what they could teach has to do with living in a actual community and/or living without our modern technology. They were incredibly versatile. I can't list he many times I've read some history and discovered something unique and interesting. Without reading history you don't get to see all the many stages in different forms of technology. Mining, for example, has always existed. And at each stage they had different kinds of methods to cope with the limits of their era. Even computers would not exist without the advancements in mathematics and a basic understanding of logic and materials science and all the many fields required to build them. Society, for the most part, is built on the backs of giants.

We're so dependent on our libraries and society these days that a branch of study has opened that's called sociocultural evolution. Society is so powerful we'd be worthless without it. Even the people who lived 1000's of years ago were dependent on society. We know that people formed communities because this allowed them to live longer and pool their knowledge. Children were dependent on parents for teaching and nurturing. Even Rome had libraries. Society is complex because people are. But more and more, we see that society is becoming rather like an extension of ourselves. It's like having another brain or another pair of arms. Our DNA and society are evolving together.

Here's a nice video about a guy that's not scientist but he knows how to move heavy things:
He says that he can move a 1 ton block 300 feet in 1 hour by himself.

This guy apparently moved a whole barn 300 feet.

He was able to stand a 19 ton block without any modern tools and/or machinery.

Tell ya what, if all our machines shut off tomorrow, you'd want to contact this guy!

reply to post by micpsi

It's wrong but not in the way you want it to be.

All of the available evidence that I see points away from aliens and towards humans. And not "primitive" humans. But very smart humans that knew how to live well in the ancient world.

We have to give credit where it's due. People of those time periods knew better how to live in their world, far better, than we could ever hope. That's a fact and we're too arrogant to believe it.

You take a modern human and place them in ancient history and they're clueless. That's my point. Similarly, there's still a lot of history to uncover. Every clue says ancient man was clever.

Buried in all this cluelessness is the secret to how they moved heavy stone blocks.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
All of the available evidence that I see points away from aliens and towards humans. And not "primitive" humans. But very smart humans that knew how to live well in the ancient world...

Yes.

They were not primitive humans in the way some people think of when they say "primitive humans" -- i.e., they were not some evolutionary inferior species to us today. The people of ancient South America (and other ancient cultures) were 'Modern Humans" in the evolutionary sense of the word. That is to say, they are us and we are them.

They are the same as us evolutionarily, which means they were generally equally as intelligent as we are. We share the same Homo Sapiens brain.

People of the ancient world were by no means dumb. We may have generally more knowledge than they did, but knowledge is not the same as intelligence. They had the intelligence to figure out problems for themselves, such as how to move big rocks, and how the create really nice masonry work.

Originally posted by FormerSkeptic

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
As others have said above, the peoples of Puma Punku were Homo Sapiens -- just like us. That means they were EQUALLY as intelligent as us (in general)...

The Romans were able to make precisely smooth stones. So did the Greeks and Medieval people. None of them had modern power tools...

In the video below is a guy who figured out a technique for moving 16 ton stones all by himself without modern equipment...

I've never understood the closed minded approach to these wonders of the ancient world. Why are people so quick to dismiss the fact that ancient man was just as intelligent as we are, and could have figured out some very ingenious techniques for constructing things in stone. Those techniques could have easily been lost to time.

Intelligent technology requires an entire intelligent society. There are certain feats that absolutely cannot be achieved without a sustained community effort of highly intelligent people STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS of other intelligent people, all driven by some FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN NEED like competition in capitalism.

All of the above may be true, but such a thing is not really necessary for carving stone with chisels and pounders now, is it?

Originally posted by FormerSkepticJust one small village of super clever stone masons is not plausible — it's just another theory, but much much weaker.

Somewhere between a half million and a million and a half people made up the "small village" you're talking about here.

Originally posted by FormerSkepticThe Romans certainly left evidence of decent civil engineering — but hardly enough to scratch the surface of something like Pumapunku. We can't even replicate Pumapunku today!

Any rational person with good reasoning skills knows all this.

You can't "reason" your way to this position that we couldn't do this today. That's simply insane. We could do it in far less time than they took. You realize (I suppose) that today we have electrical motors? Larger chunks of hard stone are sawn in hours today than anyone ever imagined at Pumapunku.

Originally posted by FormerSkepticSo each reader/viewer/student/skeptic will have to weigh the evidence — or the VALIDITY of opposing perspectives — for themselves and decide for themselves. One clue right off the bat are the type of experts involved. If it's so easy to debunk, why aren't the debunkers all hailing from esteemed institutions like Harvard University, NASA, etc.?

Because the idea is too stupid to spend any money on, obviously. Why should academia involve itself monetarily is an inane and demostrably false claim involving multiple layers of lies and mischaracterizations?

Harte