Who are your favorite political idols????????

I have so many:

MLK Jr.
The dead kennedy brothers (that could be a band name, the dead kennedys)
Malcom X
Gahndi
WEB de Bois
Frederick Douglass
Pretty much all of the American Revolutionaries
Churchill
FDR
Ralph Nader
Hannibal Lecter
Marcus Aurelius
Socrates&Plato
Nelson Mandela
Trotsky&Lenin&Marx

What a list, wow, I think I have some more too.

hmmm...

well thats it for now

XAOS

If there are any sacred cows in the world.........the one at the head of the herd has got to be Abraham Lincoln!

I admire the fact that he was a very honest man, people called him ihonest Abei for that. I feel very sorry for him and his wife for what they went through with all their children dying at a very young age. It takes wonderful actions on slavery at a time were mentalities were different than nowadays; all of us are created equal and therefore we should all be treated equal. Just as it says on the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution...........thanks Abraham!!!

I also learned that Abraham Lincoln worked very hard to achieve his goal in life and that if you work hard and study, you can go very far in life. I think that it was a shame that President Lincoln was assassinated, if he was not murdered he could have done many more good things for the US and others countries as well!

[Edited on 8-5-2003 by VzH]

Posted by Xaos
The dead kennedy brothers (that could be a band name, the dead kennedys)

Umm It was a band, with Jello Biafra as the lead.
I bet you knew that though didn't you?

Originally posted by VzH

I think that it was a shame that President Lincoln was assassinated, if he was not murdered he could have done many more good things for the US and others countries as well!

[Edited on 8-5-2003 by VzH]

It is argued among historians that had Lincoln lived the Reconstruction of the South would have far far less punitive and smoother for everyone. He would have been able to keep the radicals at bay (from both the north and the south) and created a stronger Republic.
Well, that's this historians opinion anyway.

Lincol wasnt that great. His "emancipation proclimation" only liberated slaves in rebel states. The pro-slavery union states got to keep their slaves. During his presidency he authorized the largest execution in the history of America. He declared martial law and removed habeaus corpus. And he really did not care about slaves as much as he did power.

XAOS

Originally posted by xaos
Lincol wasnt that great. His "emancipation proclimation" only liberated slaves in rebel states. The pro-slavery union states got to keep their slaves. During his presidency he authorized the largest execution in the history of America. He declared martial law and removed habeaus corpus. And he really did not care about slaves as much as he did power.

XAOS

Read David Herbert Donald's book Lincoln. Then read the Lincoln/Douglas debates. He was indeed anti-slavery, it was not all about the power. The Emancipation Proclaimation was a political tool used to back the British away from supporting the South officially. If Lincoln would have freed all the slaves he would have had the border states turn against him which would have been unintelligent. If the war had never started, no I don't think he would have abolished slavery. He would have abolished slavery in the territories (which is what the war was about in the first place). After the war began to drag on however, Lincoln (it is theorized from some personal letters) that he was going to abolish slavery everywhere. he had to win the war first and pushing the border states into the arms of Jefferson Davis and Judah P. Benjamin would not have helped in that effort.
Just this historian's opinion.

I am not familiar with the "largest execution in the United States" that you refre to. You are correct in the suspension of Habeus Corpus which was needed so he could hold confederate troops as POW's as they were still U.S. citizens according to Lincoln, they were just in revolt.

[Edited on 8-5-2003 by observer]

..and I have to ad the two at each end of the extremes;

Macheavelli who took the might makes right point of view. He had a liberal view that the end justifies the means.

At the other end, Cicero who put forth values and morals and "the high road" philosophy.

I've studied both these guys and for a while my ideas favored Machieavelli but with my youth fading and my experience growing, I find myself wafering in my philosphies away from such radical thinking.

I understand what you mean. I find myself looking for other philosophical perspectives as well. One cannot overload one's self with ideals all at once, so one must go at it with a pace and a procedure. All the preparation in between is the work of the intellectual mind. Is it not???

Speaking of Lincoln, I recently found this site, and believed to it be alright. Only thing is I lost that thought near the beginning when I saw the page owner had quoted Morpheus. not that htats a bad thing, but the FIRST quote!

www.4rie.com...

Macheavelli who took the might makes right point of view. He had a liberal view that the end justifies the means

"The end justifies the means" is, i think, the most dangerous idea for human rights.

VzH, I agree with you now but would have argued in my early adult years. Don't get me wrong, I'm still on this side of 35, barely. I have just seen that this philosphy, is very dangerous indeed and most dangerous to the person who beleives them. I still beleive there are times when might needs to be used but as our last President experienced, the thought of being so powerful he could force himself sexually on the weaker sex, not only had detrimental effects on them but himself as well.

The end justifies the means, in my opinion, is a dangerous premise. Now that I look back and see all the things I supported without proving their validity to myself first and all the bridges I had to burn. I guess all young people go through this. I heard a quote the other day I think it was by Churchill but I may be wrong he said; A young man who isn't liberal is lazy but an old man who isn't conservative is a fool.

On lincoln, he did not remove habeas corpus for Pows. No, after declaring martial law, soldiers in the north seized thousands of dissenters, including some congressmen. They were held without charges and were not released for a long time. I'm going to research a little and I will be back.

XAOS

Bob Dylan, definately BOB DYLAN!!!!..


I'm surprised that Thomas Crowne's list was not longer.

Originally posted by Maddas
Bob Dylan, definately BOB DYLAN!!!!..


I'm surprised that Thomas Crowne's list was not longer.

Bob Dylan is a prophet.

My list was only as long as it was because I didn't think of Bob Dylan. Add him to my list.

Martin Luther King
Malcolm X
Ronald Reagan

"I have a dream"

I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves, who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity. But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination.

One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."

But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice.

We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual.

There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must ever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. They have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecutions and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive. Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair. I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow. I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed; we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.

I have a dream,

that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream,

that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream,

that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right down in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith that I will go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day. This will be the day, this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning "My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring!" And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true.

And so let freedom ring

from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.

Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.

But not only that.

Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi, from every mountainside,

let freedom ring! And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last."

ab lincoln
simple as that