Lights over Phoenix & Illinois: Solid Proof

reply to post by mikefortson

Mike, it's good to have you here as member. I'm new to this ATS site, but not new to studying the phenomenon. I think the Phoenix Lights event is an important cornerstone in the vast body of historical evidence, especially when viewed in conjunction with the Illinois occurrence.

Different time, different location, different circumstances, different people, zero "cross pollination" — yet the same high quality testimonials by an undeniably large number of credible witnesses and an identically described object!

There's really no escaping the truth. It's quite amazing.

reply to post by thetiler


Indeed. The lack of reasoning skills seems to doom many naysayers.

But if any staunch cynic has a problem with my reasoning #5 (that the object cannot be man made), I would expand as follows:

5a. The "absolute" part is about CURRENT technology, therefore it's open ended and timed
5b. If one person cannot conceive of anything else that's current, others must try
5c. If others cannot conceive of anything else, everybody must continue trying
5d. If nobody is left, we all must give it time, for future disclosure of man made technology might reveal this current phenomenon

5e. However, if over time, the current state-of-the-art technology does not reveal anything to explain it and absolutely nobody, no scientist, no corporation, no government, no agency nowhere reveals anything to come close to connecting the object with something man made (such as a stealth hovering city), then the object is simply not man made!

So as a staunch skeptic (my handle is slightly misleading), I would keep an open mind and an open eye for any future disclosure of any possible "black hovering football field sized" technology by any of the defense contractors in the U.S. or any other advanced nation on Earth.

But short of that, which seems to be the case, the object is reasonably NOT MAN MADE.

Originally posted by Jchristopher5
...
For me, the work of Dr. Roger Lier stands out. He has actually collected proof of implants...

While I hate to simply jump on to say I agree, I must absolutely acknowledge this.

Here's a clip for the many research-lazy, instant gratification readers who prefer video. It's also a good reminder of the important press conference, which should be viewed by anybody who's curious in any way. There are more detailed reports about his scientific findings, which indeed is ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

reply to post by FormerSkeptic


I saw that National Press Club clip before, and I just watched it again. I didn't think then, nor do I think now, that the remarks said at that NPC event was in any way "proof". What proof did they exactly give us? They said a lot of things, but very little of it was backed up by hard evidence.


...And, by the way -- I hope you aren't one of those who feels that the fact this was said a a NPC event in any way validates the claims being made just because of the venue. The Disclosure Project is just as welcome as anyone else to speak at a Press Club luncheon, seminar, or conference -- but that does not mean that the Press Club necessarily endorses the subject matter of the group.

The National Press Club brings in all sorts of speakers, and not necessarily people who only speak facts. They also bring in people who speak opinions. In fact, a group could even request that they speak at an NPC lunceon or other NPC event. The NPC is exactly what its says it is -- it's a social and professional club for journalists. It's not a government organization, nor is it necessarily a place where only verified facts are discussed...

...and groups who speak at the Press Club are not necessarily endorsed by the club. Granted -- that doesn't mean the Press Club necessarily thinks the Disclosure Project is wrong, either. I'm just saying the venue for that conference is not relevant, because it is "only" the NPC.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by FormerSkeptic

 

I saw that National Press Club clip before, and I just watched it again. I didn't think then, nor do I think now, that the remarks said at that NPC event was in any way "proof". What proof did they exactly give us? They said a lot of things, but very little of it was backed up by hard evidence...]

Sorry, but you seem very lazy and closed minded. And I don't mean to be condescending, adversarial or provocative. Just factual because the lead to some gargantuan mountain of clear, well-organized, earnest, factual information has been presented right there. You really have to do your own research into the evidence discovered by Dr. Rodger Lier. That's as much as he can do as a scientist — present the hard physical evidence as proof, make it available for your scrutiny.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK INTO IT.

I suppose I'm getting caught up now in (holding back from) blasting such ludicrous wide-spread ignorance. All I can do as a skeptic is to present the information — or the leads to such information.

Originally posted by FormerSkeptic

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by FormerSkeptic

 

I saw that National Press Club clip before, and I just watched it again. I didn't think then, nor do I think now, that the remarks said at that NPC event was in any way "proof". What proof did they exactly give us? They said a lot of things, but very little of it was backed up by hard evidence...]

Sorry, but you seem very lazy and closed minded. And I don't mean to be condescending, adversarial or provocative. Just factual because the lead to some gargantuan mountain of clear, well-organized, earnest, factual information has been presented right there. You really have to do your own research into the evidence discovered by Dr. Rodger Lier. That's as much as he can do as a scientist — present the hard physical evidence as proof, make it available for your scrutiny.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK INTO IT.

I suppose I'm getting caught up now in (holding back from) blasting such ludicrous wide-spread ignorance. All I can do as a skeptic is to present the information — or the leads to such information.

I'm looking for some sort of independent confirmation of the claims they are making.

I'm open minded, but I don't believe every person's claim, either. I personally think that makes me more open minded -- i.e., no matter how interesting I think it would be if these implants had something to do with aliens, I'm not going to jump to the "alien conclusion" just because some guy talks about implants.

I'm not even going to jump to the conclusion that he really found those implants inside people's bodies, either -- although I consider it a possibility until I'm given evidence to the contrary.

reply to post by FormerSkeptic


Thank you for sharing that video. Although I am very familiar with the case, I hadn't heard all the witness reports.

When this happened, I got to talk via phone with Tim Ley who almost became a spokesperson in the media for this event although interestingly enough, wasn't in this video.

Anyway, his whole family witnessed the one craft that slowly came down the valley around 8PM-ish on March 13th. He and his son described the craft as being a solid triangle and as if it was alive. So it's always been curious, how many different crafts might've been involved that evening.

I love this case so thanks again!

reply to post by Human_Alien


I have known Tim Ley for over 15 years now. I first met him and his family as we filmed for the Discovery Channel special in Aug 1997. Tim and his family saw the V shaped craft (not a solid triangle) as my wife and I did in the 8 o'clock hour of March 13. We have shared many interviews together. Tim and his family were not in Dr Lynne's documentary but have been in several others. An early interview (June 19, 1997) with Tim Ley, myself, Frances Barwood, and MUFON AZ investigator Richard Motzer can be found at theufochronicles.com.

Former Arizona governor Fife Symington came out in 2007 as a witness himself (10 years after the fact) to the massive V shaped craft. Neither James Fox ("Out of the Blue" and "I Know What I Saw") nor Leslie Kean ("UFO's Secret Access") could get me in to meet the former governor, witness to witness. I have doubted his story from the beginning. He refuses to meet with me. I am not an investigator, just a witness.

I am one of many who will say, "The Massive UFO Flyover of Arizona March 13, 1997" has never been fully disclosed. All too many producers refuse to disclose major events because their investors/advertisers/station owners will not allow exotic events to be reported. Such as 5:30 pm near Crown King, multiple witnesses reporting seeing beings thru the windows of the craft, witnesses who were communicated with, etc. All you are told is a single set of orbs in the 8 o'clock hour and flares at 10 pm. There is so much more.

Two articles I wrote, if you wish to read can be found at Frank Warren's website theufochronicles.com scroll down once site loads. I am way down on right hand side. Everything I have written about the PL case Frank has gratiously put there. They are titled..."The Non-Investgation of the Phoenix Lights" and "The Massive UFO Flyover of Arizona March 13, 1997 12 Years of Retrospect".

Merry Christmas to all....

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

I'm looking for some sort of independent confirmation of the claims they are making.

I'm open minded, but I don't believe every person's claim, either. I personally think that makes me more open minded -- i.e., no matter how interesting I think it would be if these implants had something to do with aliens, I'm not going to jump to the "alien conclusion" just because some guy talks about implants.

I'm not even going to jump to the conclusion that he really found those implants inside people's bodies, either -- although I consider it a possibility until I'm given evidence to the contrary.

Well, duhh. How do you know there's no independent confirmation IF YOU DON'T LOOK INTO IT? That's all I'm saying!

So you think you're open minded, but you haven't even looked at his reports. The report is not the press conference by the way. And the full press conference isn't even shown in the above YouTube clip.

Go figure, huh? Debunking is not that easy.

Hint: Yes there were multiple, independent, unknowing surgeons involved. Yes there were at least two independent metallurgical labs that concluded the material is "of unknown origin" something or other. One of the labs speculated it was meteorite material WITHOUT knowing it was surgically removed from inside human tissue.

And so on and so forth.

Please don't take hints from me. Do your own research to reach your own conclusions. You will startle yourself if you're truly open minded. And I can already feel why nobody makes any effort any more to lambast the ignorant debunkers. The burden of proof should not be on me.

reply to post by mikefortson


I will check out your work. Thanks


I was a MUFON investigator in NY and it was this event (and my own personal experience in 1997) that catapulted me into this field.

About the Ley family. I'm not sure if they saw two different objects that evening or have since, modified their story but they did say it was a solid object that blacked out 3/4 of the sky. The son (whose name escapes me) told me, the middle portion of this cradt looked alive. Wavy. Like breathing. I believe he compared the visual-effect to heat coming off a road on a hot summer day. He believed the craft itself was intelligent. An organism opposed to synthetic material.


Fife waited until he was out of office to publicly admit what he witnessed. He made no indication that he had even witnessed this event until several years later. But I do remember being incensed when he made a mockery out of this event with that costume alien. He said he did it to add levity but it's been said he did that under orders.

Originally posted by Human_Alien
...
Fife waited until he was out of office to publicly admit what he witnessed. He made no indication that he had even witnessed this event until several years later. But I do remember being incensed when he made a mockery out of this event with that costume alien. He said he did it to add levity but it's been said he did that under orders.

Fife Symington has a type of mockery tendency in behavior when confronted with a truly incredible event. Sadly, I think there are many ignorant people like him.

Originally posted by FormerSkeptic

Fife Symington has a type of mockery tendency in behavior when confronted with a truly incredible event. Sadly, I think there are many ignorant people like him.

Ignorant or controlled? After all, he was only a governor. I think there was a quick attempt to cover this up late that evening. So if that is true...and I do believe it is....some high ranking military personnel might've told Fife-boy to keep a lid on this and...make a light joke out of it while he was at it.

To me he came off most sincere in his post interviews so who knows?.....he might be ignorant but I didn't see it that way.

The Phoenix Lights surmounts and trumps The Roswell incident by a landslide in my opinion. A governor and ten thousand residents were not delusional that evening.
That was a big cosmic year. Between the anniversaries of Roswell (50 years) and Washington DC (25 years) then Hale Bopp, the Heaven Gate suicide and this.....I highly suspect this was a message of some sort.

Originally posted by FormerSkeptic
By now, if you consider yourself open minded in anything UFO, you've heard of the Phoenix Lights and the Sightings Over Southern Illinois.

These comprise evidence as solid as any. Please feel free to add other similar videos.

It's downright ludicrous to think that there are no visiting extraterrestrial intelligence after viewing either of these. But if you haven't seen them, watch them both for comparison. A lot of uninformed cynics really have to get off square one. There's a lot more to discuss than merely whether extraterrestrials exist. They do.

What else can they be. It's silly to choose to stay ignorant.

It's more silly to conclude that just because they are not identified that means they are extraterrestrial intelligent life forms.

We already know that our own life form on earth, humans, make crazy machines that fly all over the place. There's tens of thousands of them. We already know the military keeps this technology secret. The probability is more likely by factors of tens of thousands that the non-identified objects flying in the sky are man-made.

There is no reason to conclude that other life forms from other planets are flying anything here.

Reminds me of religious beliefs.

reply to post by sconner755


Really? I mean, really? Have you heard the eye witness statements?

This craft was 'alive'. It had intelligence (some said)
Something very similar to this was also seen several years prior and photographs were taken both times. They look very close in appearance.

This machine was silent. It glided down the valley.
If it wasn't alien then what was the purpose? What?...the military ran out of testing room at Groom Lake?

There is no denying this (or these) craft(s) were seen that night by thousands.
Some said it was at least a mile wide.

I think it's time we all put down the koolaid that was given to us 66 years ago and respect this for what it is. This was a bona-fided UFO. The logical scenario (man-made) doesn't make sense this time.
So taking that proverbial 'leap' by suggesting it was probably an ET craft..... is a good start!

reply to post by Human_Alien


The Ley family saw only one craft on March 13, 1997 around 8:25 pm or so.. A massive V shaped craft, very slow, very low, and totally silent. Tim's grandson commented that he could hit it with a tennis ball!

Tim's son's name is Hal.

If you are aware of all Symington's testimonies...watch "UFO's Secret Access" which was done for History Channel...he said several things that are not consistant with earlier reports by him. I and many other's did not believe him. Both James Fox and Leslie Kean should have done more research and asked him important questions before filming him for their documentaries.

Doing your homework is key...is it not?

Originally posted by FormerSkeptic
By now, if you consider yourself open minded in anything UFO, you've heard of the Phoenix Lights and the Sightings Over Southern Illinois.

These comprise evidence as solid as any. Please feel free to add other similar videos.

It's downright ludicrous to think that there are no visiting extraterrestrial intelligence after viewing either of these. But if you haven't seen them, watch them both for comparison. A lot of uninformed cynics really have to get off square one. There's a lot more to discuss than merely whether extraterrestrials exist. They do.

What else can they be. It's silly to choose to stay ignorant.

I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Two very close friends and even my own father have witnessed these things in Southern IL, and they all have yet to jump to that conclusion.

Part 2 of 5 of the Illinois case.

Originally posted by xpoq47
I keep repeating this, but whenever there's a good case like the ones you cited, it's the failure of every ufologist, famous or unknown, not to immediately file FOIA requests for the U.S. Weather Bureau and FAA radar data for the time and area of the event. For Governor Symington to not have thought of that for the Phoenix Lights case might be excusable, but what excuse do ufologists in the U.S. have? None. What about next time?

I wouldn't call it solid proof, but S&F for the thread.

edit on 24-12-2012 by xpoq47 because: (no reason given)

How many freedom of information act requests have you filed?
Just wondering.

I live on the city line between Belleville and Shiloh. Our AF base in Belleville is called Scott AFB which is mentioned in the videos of the So Il case... where my husband is employed. Ive seen quite a few UFOs ( in the true sense of the term) in the almost 8 yrs we have lived in this area. I COMPLETELY believe the eyewitnesses and officers. Not every weird thing is an indication of an alien.. especially when you have an AFB up the street... if they deny its on their radar or not. Its called unidentified for a reason... its unidentified. Id love to know what they are, but like when the stealth was mistaken for an alien aircraft here yrs ago, sometimes you just have to wait until its declassified.. or for alien disclosure. To believe that something that is unidentified means aliens immediately is mainly why serious interest in the subject is often kept quiet and those seriously interested are ridiculed. To me, the blind belief that every light and craft are aliens is akin to unreasonable religious fanaticism.

My mind is open to life elsewhere, its just not so empty my brain falls out concerning every claim or crazy craft in the sky... even with my own eyes.