The Ban on Guns is not about saftey...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm sorry, but the invention of the gun was a miltary weapon to kill, not wound or injure but kill. Link

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
Americans seem to think they invented the thing and know everything about it!!!!!


You're living in a fantasy world when it comes to civil war!! Americans keep claiming that they will use there weapons when the time comes, but you don't. Did you band together and go shoot up wall street when the banks stole all your money, did you band togther and shoot up the white house when Bush dragged your country kicking and screaming into a war over WMDs??

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Understood, but as I said before. If there is a civil war, whichever side gets the aid of what was our federal government will win. You brought up the drones yourself. You know the military might that our federal government has. There is no chance a band of disenfranchised citizens would be able to overthrow a government with nuclear weapons.

As a disclaimer, I actually agree with you that it is a moot discussion due to the supreme court ruling, but enjoy picking your brain because you seem a bit more conservative than I. Keep in mind that I was also brought up in a hyper-liberal gun hating household and have developed some respect for the 2nd amendment, so you've got to give me some credit!

reply to post by Kurokage


no gun powder was invented for fireworks.

the act of using a weapon for hunting supersedes all forms of use for war.

Also the musket was identical in design for hunting as well as for war.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by jimmyx
Obama hasn't killed any children. provide clear and positive evidence of this, or you are just another one of the hundreds of Obama haters on this site.

Hmmm... I guess you missed the thread of the Soldier who quit after murdering a kid with a drone strike.

You DO realize, that whole program is run under authority of the President of the Untied States, right?? It was under Bush and it is under Obama. We can't fly little death machines into whatever nation we feel like killing people in....without SOMEONE authorizing it. At this level, where wars can start from a mistake? Only one man in the American system has authority to approve it's ongoing operation.

Thank Barack Obama for the fleets of killer drones still operating from Bush's tenure. ...and they ABSOLUTELY DO KILL KIDS. Where have you been on this? Locked in MSNBC news where bad things about Obama never happen or something?

these taliban and al queda sub-humans have been surrounding themselves with women and children for decades now..you don't think they know what they are doing? they hide in homes with families, place rocket launchers in schools, their "holy men" (sic) go preach to young innocents to go blow themselves up. they don't care if women and children die, so longs as it serves allah. they destroy antiquities, they teach their children that anyone that IS NOT a muslim must convert or die, and they follow through on this. and if you are a westerner, they wouldn't hesitate to kill you, your wife and your kids

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


That has nothing to with the invention of firearms.
Did you even read the link I posted??

It all started in China, where gunpowder was first created. In the ninth century, alchemists blended charcoal, saltpeter and sulfur into a powder called huo yao, which was used to treat skin infections

From the article linked.

Wheres the cliche, guns don't kill people, people do!! Guns just make it a hundred times easier!!:

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Agreed re: hunting, but he claimed that "GUNS ARE NOT ..NEVER HAVE BEEN..NEVER WILL BE..AND ARE NOT GENERALLY OWNED WITH THE EXPRESS, EXCLUSIVE AND SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING OTHER LIVING THINGS. PERIOD. PERIOD PERIOD. "

Pretty sure hunting animals qualifies as killing other living things. Not that I have an issue with hunting -- I actually find it less ethically questionable than raising animals for slaughter under the conditions that we subject them to.

Also, thanks for the bit about the gun modifications, as you can tell I'm not well versed in that subculture.

reply to post by Kurokage


I am one to say that guns kill anything they are aimed at when fired.

BUT,

That is neither here nor there.

I just don't buy into the hype that Guns are somehow an evil.

Then so is everything in evil people´s hands and used with evil intent. That is the point behind the cliché.

It is like saying that cave men using cutting tools are evil because the tools WILL become swords.
But people are villanizing something because it is valued by their opposition. Liberals try to ban guns because they know it is something their "rivals" value. It is out of spite more than anything. I don't know many liberals that personally know someone who was killed by a gun, yet they make it a personal issue.

They buy into the partisan BS and forget that they are advocating for the removal of a liberty. The divide among us is used to push agendas. We have to be one people when it comes to our rights. We can fight over everything else, but as one......

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Historians typically recognize Chinese fire lances, which were invented in the 10th century, as the first guns. These bamboo or metal tubes projected flames and shrapnel at their targets. Cannons appeared in Italy around 1320, where they were modified as European nations waged many wars. By the 16th century, European firearms had become far more advanced -- and far more deadly -- than their counterparts in the East.

I think its been to long to ban them out right and they are not evil but something has to change.
I would actually like to come to America and shot at a range but that doesn't change my opinion that there needs to be more checks on mental health issues when gun ownership is concerned.

I would just like to say thanks for keeping things civil, I know this a delicate subject.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kurokage

 

Well, first... I'm going to outright scream the next time a Non-American (in particular..we have Americans too and they are FAR WORSE for the ignorance) claims guns are strictly for killing things.

GUNS ARE NOT ..NEVER HAVE BEEN..NEVER WILL BE..AND ARE NOT GENERALLY OWNED WITH THE EXPRESS, EXCLUSIVE AND SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING OTHER LIVING THINGS. PERIOD. PERIOD PERIOD.

Thanks...I HAD to get that out. I've seen this outright lie and B.S. repeated so many times now I swear I would punch someone in the nose if I heard it said in person right now.



Now.... Having said that?

If firearms weren't a right under the Untied States Constitution? You could permit, license, restrict ownership and require any number of hurdles to have to cross before simply OWNING one. However, as much as this seems a point of silly detail to Non-Americans...

THIS POINT IS WHAT AMERICANS HAVE...AND WILL...GO TO CIVIL WAR OVER. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT.

Constitutional *RIGHTS* are not now, nor have they EVER BEEN negotiable. Only one body of men and women on Earth can interpret that document with final say. That is the Supreme Court.

As it happens..THEY DID interpret that document..and not 200 years ago either. They looked over this WHOLE THING just THREE years ago in 2009. In that review? They sided with me and flat out against everything you are suggesting in concept., let alone real world practice. It's not a possibility because IT'S NOT LEGAL. ..and under our system? IT NEVER CAN BE.

It gets frustrating to no end because we've having the same debate ENDLESSLY because people don't seem to understand the meaning, weight and FORCE of the Constitution. Ot over-rides everything else...EVERYTHING ELSE...and it IS the law as the Supers say. Well, in 2009 they said....and they said this is a moot point.

I noticed you didn't reply, maybe you missed my reply at the top of this page? I was looking forward to your opinion.

reply to post by Kurokage

I've seen many American posters sarcasticallly claim cars, knives, drugs blah blah blah....kill people, should they be banned too??? Well, I own a car here in the UK, to do so, first I must pass a driving test, then as a new driver, insurance companies make it difficult for you to own an expensive car to start with by charging a premium for new drivers, I then need the car to pass an MOT MOT? which is every year and road tax either every six months or yearly.

Shouldn't a tool soley designed to kill (self defense or not) have even stricter rules and laws than owning and buying a car, a person before even being able to own or fire a gun should be able to prove safe gun control and have some kind of physc test?

Shouldn't a person who then owns guns have police vist there homes to make sure the owner keeps their guns safe and out of reach of others? If a person in the household is suffering a mental illness, shouldn't someone in some kind of medical or police authority be told, even moving the weapons to somewhere more secure till the person can prove they are safe to be around weapons and shouldn't this be done routinely?

I think this quote needed to be repeated.

but Of course most people want anyone, with anything to buy weapons. Why are they afraid of strict rules? do they plan on avoiding consequences?

if you own a GUN for DEFENSE you should PROMOTE stricter LAWS.

Guns prevent us from becoming Syria.

reply to post by luciddream


I completely agree with you. Guns don't need to be banned just better ownership and control of atleast legal firearms.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


and the guy in China tried mass REDRUM with a knife.

the moral decision to conduct an honest an moral life cannot be legislated. Steel and gun powder and lead dont make a man evil.

What did Jeffry Dahmer use?
How many young people did he kill?
What legislation did Nidal Husan bring out of the Ft Hood shooting of 42?
How much of Obama's Legislation is being forged out of EMOTION?

reply to post by racer451


And compared to the rest of the world how many gun totting lunies have gone on the rampage in American??

You need to take responsabilty for actions in American when it comes to gun ownership, most of you would prefer to jump up and down like a child when you take his toy away and just skip past the part of discussing the problem like adults.

reply to post by Kurokage

That's an interesting link for the history of firearms. It's a little shallow and weak to what I read in the more formal history texts and near tomes on the subject..but good enough for a casual debate I suppose.

Do you happen to also have links to the origins, purpose and whole intent behind the invention and perfection of Fireworks, Bows and Arrows or the Submarine? All were designed with ABSOLUTELY NO other purpose but to kill other human beings as quickly, effectively and finally as it was possible to accomplish in battle.

Now I have some issues about saying Guns were only made to kill two legged humans... but whatever. Like you say yourself.....Your using logic from a far distant past to justify arguments in the present. (I know it's hard to bash someone else for something then not do it yourself? You could try though.......It's bad when it's so blatantly done)

Funny though... Like firearms, all of the above found their way into many many other uses in the modern world. This includes COMPETITION, Sports and something that those that make great fun of family life these days could never grasp as a concept. In American life, guns have also served as a point of bonding between Father and Son for generations going back to General Washington. Such as it was between my onw Father and I.

So...because some psychotic killers who could (and HAVE) as easily used knives, explosives and blunt objects to just bludgeon people to death as well.....used firearms in recent massacres? We should tear our Constitution to pieces and turn our whole way of life upside down?

I'm sorry this is the view of so many who have no respect for the base concept of Liberty (If you need rights given or regulated, they aren't rights anymore.... this is grade school simple as a truth)

The fact is...you are among a half of this nation that WILL FORCE your views upon my half. My half is already FAR past sick of the superior attitudes and "Daddy" complex the Government of today has.....this crap won't go much longer before the push back comes and it'll be BAD when it starts. Like I point out....the side doing the pushing? Generally couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag with directions and a flashlight.

The side BEING pushed....generally knew how to shoot, clean and cook something before reaching teenage years. This won't be a long fight..when the liberal side FINALLY pushes this crap too far and the fight starts in earnest.

(I'll still be very very happy to see this happen long after I'm gone.......but the fact liberals WILL NEVER EVER EVER STOP pushing their ideas on others BY WHATEVER FORCE IS NECESSARY...is why this WILL apparently HAVE to come to a fight eventually)

reply to post by Kurokage


hmmm........how many IED's have taken out cars in your neighborhood ?

Originally posted by racer451
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

and the guy in China tried mass REDRUM with a knife.

You mean the latest one, where 20 children were just wounded and NOT die? of course they would be goners if it were a Gun.

the moral decision to conduct an honest an moral life cannot be legislated. Steel and gun powder and lead dont make a man evil.

Gun just make it easier, why do you think the mass murders almost always stick to guns? why not carry out their attacks with stones and screw drivers.

What did Jeffry Dahmer use?
How many young people did he kill?

He was a serial killer, had target victims, had premeditated plans, had other reasons for killings which lasted OVER many years, not 5 secs shooting spree on school kids out on impulse because he had a gun.

Originally posted by Kurokage
reply to post by racer451

 

And compared to the rest of the world how many gun totting lunies have gone on the rampage in American??

You need to take responsabilty for actions in American when it comes to gun ownership, most of you would prefer to jump up and down like a child when you take his toy away and just skip past the part of discussing the problem like adults.

edit on 20-12-2012 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)

You do realize the psychopathic punks at Columbine built or were in the process of building 99 explosive devices? Many of those were deployed and intended to structurally destroy the school buildings with everyone IN them.

I'm not sure those two animals even intended to do much shooting...and guns were absolutely NOT the intended weapon of most destruction for them. That's just ONE example of a mass shooting event where public perceptions fed by media is SO FAR OFF the reality of what actually happened? It's like two totally different events.

I'd love to talk stats...but if you can't back what your saying on the opening statements? I doubt this one goes anywhere. I'm about through spending hours backing my arguments....for 1-3 line replies being all I ever see in return. This debate seems no more promising thus far.

double post

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I take issue with your premise that a civil war is inevitable. You're just as unwavering in your stance as many liberals I know. I started out far left of where I am today, but have come to agree with you regarding the "daddy" complex of government, and think that listening to the "opposition" and asking questions tends to be a far better policy than imposition of my sentiments. On that note, let me ask you something. We know that you don't want an overbearing government regulating your guns. I agree to a point. How do you feel about that government regulating social issues? Gay marriage? Abortion?