Enough is Enough and Lines MUST exist somewhere!

I've been following the tragedy in Connecticut with everyone else and stunned at the new lows man is capable of reaching. The more we learn about the details and the specifics relating to the killer, his weapons and his behavior that day the more I'm almost thankful it wasn't worse. It sure could have been. I'm anxious to know, for example, why he left a Saiga Shotgun in his car. I was once offered one of these in a firearms trade and almost took him up on it. I've always wished I had, in hindsight. The shotgun is like a 12 gauge AK-47. Quite literally. It's the AK- platform with magazine feed and semi-automatic function in 12 gauge chambering.


The details I am reading don't leave me with some nagging thought of conspiracy or that more than 1 guy did this thing. If another did, we won't have long to wait to learn....as no one capable of doing this will be mentally capable of just fading back into the woodwork now to never be heard from again. Someone not broken by it would likely act out worse and soon. I don't buy the 2nd or more guy theories anyway though and that brings me to the MAIN POINT.

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ENOUGH WITH 'IT WAS THE GOVERNMENT!'

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That is of course my opinion, but I'm really getting tired of seeing EVERY SINGLE depraved tragedy and example of evil in the world put at the feet of civil servants. It's absurd, unfair and bordering on DEMENTED.

Like many, I have family in the military. Some have done some wild and classified things too...or so I hear rumors.. In various circumstances in life, I've met federal agents and a few intelligence professionals too. Interesting people ..some of them. Anyway.... I have NEVER... ONCE....met anyone in Federal Service that could put multiple rounds into the screaming face of a 6 or 7 year old child...let alone over a dozen of them....and keep DOING IT. I've never even met anyone who CAME CLOSE to that level of psychopath and I did meet one I felt disturbed and almost dirty afterward. Some bad people out there....but NOT bad LIKE THIS.

This wasn't CIA or Spetnaz or GSG-9.. NO ONE who can reach that level of refined training and mental as well as physical cutting edge ..with all the mental strength it requires to GET there...would be so warped as to be able to do what was done here. I just don't buy it...and again, I have met a few who would have been in the circles that'd be aware of such evil IF it existed at that level. It doesn't. It NEVER HAS in those circles. Not at THIS level. Not at this type of pure Evil.

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I don't know why, for some, it's easier to blame a shadowy world government for everything that goes wrong or every evil event that happens. Perhaps it's that blaming a controlled process, however corrupt, assumes there are limits and a way to stop it somewhere ...when in reality, no such thing exists. There is no limit to how bad these can get.....when we must admit no one is controlling or "causing" it to happen.

_______________________

I had to get this off my chest though because I'm sick in general of seeing everything to wear a Uniform either Police or Military being run down and trashed but this? This just crossed all lines of human decency. To suggest anyone who left that scene and is out there today had anything to DO with those murdered kids....and did it for a paycheck? Is almost mentally ill in my opinion.

Limits HAVE to exist SOMEWHERE for how far the paranoia goes beyond the well reasoned and logical 'paranoid caution' we all have to live with these days for the various things which ARE very much happening in the world around us ...and the outright breaks with reality events like this represent. This was a moment...or series of them..where evil reigned. It wasn't a conspiracy. Let's just mourn the lost children....and not try and out-do each other with wild theories of what 3 letter agency did it. (sigh)

Just 2 cents tossed out from a mildly flummoxed Rabbit.

I agree.. I see it every single time.. people just automatically blame the government for every single bad thing imaginable ... it's sickening to me..

The government may not be a cute and cuddly entity but stop pointing fingers without evidence..

Hmmm, where to begin...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
That is of course my opinion, but I'm really getting tired of seeing EVERY SINGLE depraved tragedy and example of evil in the world put at the feet of civil servants. It's absurd, unfair and bordering on DEMENTED.

What exactly is “demented” about suspecting a government which has a documented history of committing state sanctioned atrocities and evil?

Its actually a sign of a mass awakening that people are willing to consider all options.

I doubt anyone suspects your local postal worker. Although...

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Like many, I have family in the military. Some have done some wild and classified things too...or so I hear rumors..

Not even sure what this means. You know people who have committed evil acts and are proud of it?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Anyway.... I have NEVER... ONCE....met anyone in Federal Service that could put multiple rounds into the screaming face of a 6 or 7 year old child...let alone over a dozen of them....and keep DOING IT. I've never even met anyone who CAME CLOSE to that level of psychopath and I did meet one I felt disturbed and almost dirty afterward. Some bad people out there....but NOT bad LIKE THIS.

So it means that its not possible?

Ever meet a “soldier”? Do a search, theres no shortage of incidents. Members of the military as well as the “private security” contractors kill for fun. And this is now. The Vietnam era stories are just as horrific if not more so.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
This wasn't CIA or Spetnaz or GSG-9.. NO ONE who can reach that level of refined training and mental as well as physical cutting edge …done here. I just don't buy it...and again, I have met a few who would have been in the circles that'd be aware of such evil IF it existed at that level. It doesn't. It NEVER HAS in those circles. Not at THIS level. Not at this type of pure Evil.

Odd statement from someone on ATS. I expect this from a poster on a corporate media forum. The CIA has a documented history of committing heinous crimes from drug dealing to murder.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I don't know why, for some, it's easier to blame a shadowy world government for everything that goes wrong or every evil event that happens. Perhaps it's that blaming a controlled process, however corrupt, assumes there are limits and a way to stop it somewhere ...when in reality, no such thing exists…

Perhaps its because our government has a long documented history of evil.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
To suggest anyone who left that scene and is out there today had anything to DO with those murdered kids....and did it for a paycheck? Is almost mentally ill in my opinion.

Paycheck? MK ULTRA wasn’t about money.

Odd post from someone who spends a good amount of time on these forums.

Why am I seeing so many users complaining in regards to people claiming a recent event is a conspiracy, on a conspiracy website?

How many of these threads have to be made to get the point across? A conspiracy website is going to contain conspiracies in regards to recent events, I don't feel like this is rocket science. If you were on an automotive forum, you would expect them to be talking about automobiles... Right? Same thing goes for a "Conspiracy" website... Or so I thought...

Wrabbit, I read and star your posts a lot. But on this one I have to say to you, and the other side of this debate: Why does it have to be one way or the other at this point?

The truth is, none of us knows, and we may never truly know if this was a lone madman, or other. I'm perfectly willing to look at both as objectively as possible, and go from there.

Again I say. Why? Why does it of necessity have to be my way, or your way, or anyone else's way?

Why is it so hard for us to say we really don't know for sure? Because some of us can't stand the thought of not knowing? We MUST have an answer right now? We must sooth ourselves, and our conscience somehow?

We don't know! There are many things we don't know. But tragedies like this have a tendency to make us scream for answers that just aren't forthcoming fast enough to quell our grief and fear.

The world is so screwed up, and everyone just carries on like everything is fine. Nobody trusts anybody, everyone fights over what to believe and how to live. Blame is just thrown around. Consume then die. I keep hoping one day the world will learn, and just grow up already. We have amazing technology and instant communication but it just seems to separate everybody further. We can be so much better, its sad.

End of rant.

reply to post by QUANTUMGR4V17Y
Because they're government ops.

reply to post by Klassified

Well, I do say on this, it's one way or the other because it's not just a shooting and it's not just an event being exploited for gun control agendas. Similar to the Aurora Shooting where some of that was children, up close and eye to eye personal in nature.....this was UNTHINKABLY so.

We DO know the shooter was up close. Very close... We can infer by the imagination I kinda wish I didn't have just now as a parent...what that evil bastard saw and heard as he did what he did. It's beyond imagining, and that's the point.

To blame the Government isn't to blame some faceless entity. There are human beings that make up every brick of the wall that is the Government. It's suggesting we actually have this level of evil ....not bad conduct or bad judgement.... but pure, unadulterated evil...functioning right up near the surface and on the Government payroll.

That level of demonization is what the Government ITSELF does by saying Iraqi's were tossing newborn babies out of incubators to steal them as loot in 1990......or saying the Syrian Government Forces are torturing small children. It's what one does prior to justifying ANYTHING being done and making the mental leap to having no limits in response. It's not just a slippery slope to a foggy bottom .....it's a 45 degree fall to a 90 degree plunge.

I'm not even suggesting Uncle Sam doesn't have some BADLY misguided children among the ranks. Oh he does.... He most certainly does. EVIL though? No. There is the difference and why I took a moment to write the rant. Some of this and NOT just here....is so far beyond logic, it's sickening.

reply to post by gladtobehere


Okay, let's move out of the hypothetical where anything goes and nothing needs proof. You suggest atrocity... Which ones, when and who within the Government did each one?

The rant here isn't addressing hypothetical events. It's addressing the response to the slaughter of 6 and 7 year old children by a truly evil psychopath and saying our own Government could do it, and has people willing.

I'm saying there IS NO previous precedent to events which translate in even a passing way to this one and saying one leads to a reasonable suggestion THIS could be related.

Really.. This is over the lines in some ways, so lets insure we have those lines well defined. What atrocities are we starting with as a baseline for debate?

Taking details from the event to create another little fantasy of lies which is why people were killed has to stop.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

U.S. apologizes for 1940s syphilis inoculation experiment in Guatemala
Clinton Apologizes for Radiation Tests...
N.C. Considers Paying Forced Sterilization Victims


I'll leave it at this.

I don't know what the true story is, but I find the psychology involved with the reactions interesting.

In America we grow up knowing that our nation is the world's top dog. I think this plays a role in accusing the government when something goes wrong...we are under the impression that the USA is omnipotent.

People have a hard time accepting we could be genuinely vulnerable. It is entirely possible, even likely, that a psychopath will conduct a mass shooting on their own accord. In Connecticut, I think this is the case.

After 9/11, those who believe in the false flag theory are even more drawn in to the myth of American invincibility.

It is almost scarier that an actual attack could occur...than the possibility that our own government sabotages.


People do messed up stuff, not just government people and not just American people.

Good thread, Wrabbit.

reply to post by Klassified
I figured that was some of what folks had in mind for examples and while those are terrible things to have done (as were a dozen more that come to mind and you don't list there) it comes back to the same basic thing.

On one hand we have examples of Government Misconduct and truly out of control operations for experiments and testing. Oversight run amok and generally nonexistent. Hmm.. Kinda like we have today, but I digress. Oversight these days is called political witch hunting.

On the other hand, we have the two legged animal able to shoot the smallest of children in the face, point blank and repeatedly.....after murdering his own parents in similar style before heading off to become a true monster.


Perhaps the issue here is degrees and levels of perspective. It seems we have little to no perspective on things anymore and a Government able to conduct Syphilis tests in America and Guatemala is suddenly able to execute children without a second thought. The two aren't even on the same planet...is my point. The levels of wrong are worlds apart as is the nature of the monster required to do one of them.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I understand what you're saying. But from my perspective, anyone capable of actually planning and/or performing the atrocities above, knowing the victim will suffer or die, is also capable of going to the next level.

I don't call radiating, infecting, forced mind control, and forced sterilization, "oversight". I call it monstrous and heinous that anyone working in public service could do any of these things.

I might also remind you that our own pentagon spent a ton of money purchasing childporn on government computers, with taxpayer money, illegally. Knowing full well that the children they were viewing in those video's and pictures were not there willingly, were severely abused, and many were most likely murdered after their "performance".

If anyone on this forum tells me they are capable of doing any of the above mentioned atrocities, then I will also tell you, they are capable of what happened in CT.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Nevertheless, I digress to my original statement. We just don't know at this point, and we may never know. But I do understand your perspective, and why you feel the way you do. Thanks for elaborating on it. I respect your stance, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

reply to post by Klassified
Hmm.. You make some interesting points. let me approach this from another angle.


I hear you speaking on the hypothetical level and I don't mean hypothetical to these people existing. I mean, at the level the men you're talking about would be operating, it's hypothetical or academic for all the realism it would have to them, right? Coldly planning out things like this in a sterile office in Langley or Tampa is a far cry from actually doing it though.

So I guess while I wouldn't term it backtracking in my point, I'd clarify to say that you make a good one yourself and these men at the planning level may well exist. After all, it is fair to say that they know damn well a bombing run into a major city center is going to kill kids...yet it was done quite a bit during the height of the major fighting in Iraq as well as the stages before forces reached the cities. I.E... Planning wouldn't be the problem. You're right.


However... We're back to the heart of the matter. Where are they be finding the outright, total psychopaths who would then DO what people in an office could think up? That's where the breakdown comes. Someone so far gone to humanity as to be capable of the acts here .....is too far gone to reliably control or have reliable allegiance back to an employer, agency or nation. Rabid dogs are rabid to everyone...and acts like this or Aurora are the mark of outright rabid animals, IMO. They just wouldn't be ..controllable?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Well, I could tell you they aren't controllable long term, and that's why they are programmed to self-destruct. Having a background in hypnosis, and a little understanding of how the mind works myself, this is very plausible to me, but isn't to most people. And I can understand why, if they haven't seen what I've seen firsthand.

So lets take another perspective. Lets go back to the doctors and officers of the Nazi regime who did things hands-on that most of us won't even speak from our mouths these days. Given the right conditions, and the right mindset, some people are capable of anything once it has been rationalized in their mind. Especially if they've had a little help getting there, and someone to channel it in the direction they want it to go.

Whether encouraged and induced, or acting alone from festering hatred, we're still talking about someone who has gone too far mentally to come back to sanity.

Those Nazi doctors and officers seemed quite sane during their trials, but we have to know they weren't. They couldn't be and have done such unspeakable acts.

I hope that analogy makes some sense. And although I am debating from this standpoint, my argument is that it is possible, not that it is certainly the case in CT.

ETA: To clarify, My point about the Nazi's, was they didn't seem to have a problem finding psychopaths to do their bidding before, and during the war. I doubt finding them today is any harder. Especially if you choose people who already have problems.

The reason the government is so quick to be judged is because of the past 10 years alone, IMO.

There is a clear agenda to be had.
And anything that comes up is seen potentially as part of the implementation.

'They' aren't a boogeyman all the time, but some of the time...therefore it's imperative to question it as if it were..

reply to post by yourmaker

This is true. And we mustn't forget that the government is not the only one with a vested interest in certain outcomes in this, and other countries. Nor is the government the only one who could pull off something like this. We have to know there are other interests such as mega-corporations that are more than willing to find(or create) people to commit just such horrors.

But there are elements in our government that are major players right along with those others. IMHO.

reply to post by Klassified

I'll stick to my point on this specific incident...

Having said that, in the general run of similar acts of brutal and senseless violence lately? I don't know what to think anymore. Government doesn't make sense on much of the smaller stuff because Government would have no reason or benefit from screwing with Mr. Nobody in uncontrolled circumstances to just turn lose and see what happens. It's so risky it's insane if such deep black experiments were happening today. That kind of dumb is what blew the '___' experiments and MK Ultra, in no small part in fact.

You may have heard of this one but there was a killing in Kentucky awhile back. I don't have a link handy but it was a basic story here. The grown kid killed his mother in the rear residential area of a store/home set up. People were in the building when this happened. He stabbed her repeatedly and actually did some damage beyond just that. Terrible scene and a friend of mine on another site happens to live right around there to have heard details. The other people in the building apparently ran in when she started screaming (it happened that fast) and saw him calmly turning and walking out with an untroubled expression and casual speed. He wasn't concerned...and they were too shocked and busy trying to render aid at that moment to stop him.

No drugs... No idea, last I heard, what caused it. The look..behavior..description..they sound so much like the Aurora shooter in court too. I'm not sure about manipulation ...but for SOME reason and in some way I've heard no answer to, reality to those people isn't what it is to us beyond a certain point before they turned homicidal.

The Miami causeway cannibal took a shot right to center mass from the cop and laughed.... he actually laughed..when the cop opened up and put him down hard. Now that wasn't TOO shocking because many assumed PCP or Salts. I know I did. Nothing though. Toxicology on that one was clean. That crazy SOB was sober, eating someone's face off ......and the victim described him as calm and rationale minutes before turning and telling him he was about to do what he went on and did.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

The US government's crimes are very well documented. No need for hypothetical situations.

In my opinion its difficult to say whats "most evil". There are the localized crimes: torture, citizen assassinations, human experimentation, MK ULTRA, drug dealing, assassinations etc.

Then theres the terror committed on a mass scale. These range from the overthrow of governments to the use of chemical weapons on civilians including children to nuking civilian populations (not once but twice).

To be honest, the US has committed so much evil its difficult to list everything.

But somehow its "insane" or outside the realm of possibilities that they may have killed 20 school children. Just 20???