Attn:Another_1 Re: The Trinity

This verse looks to me as a really desparate attempt to support something that is not taught in the Bible.

"The spirit, the water, and the blood" are not a GOD that is in 3 Persons, the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

If you want me to worship a God in 3 persons like the Church teaches, I need you to find me a verse in the Bible that tells me to do so. I guarantee that you will fail

But.... just for fun.. let's assume that this talks about the "Holy Trinity" (a phrase that does not exist anywhere in the Bible). Why is something of such extraordinary importance only mentioned once? (and it isnt).

How could the Bible make such an incredible mistake not mentioning the Holy Trinity - a concept every Christian believes in firmly?

Answer two questions for me please;

If you read the Bible on your own, without any outside influence, would you worship the concept of a God being in 3 Persons, called the "Holy Trinity" and WHY, because of what Verses?

And second;

If the existence of this "Holy Trinity" is so obvious - why is it's existence being debated?

Conclusion: Please provide me with the verse that teaches me to worship a GOD in 3 Persons - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also known as the "Holy Trinity".

Until then, I will consider it a man-invented concept based on nothing.

Peace.

Firstly New Testament writers unanimously affirm the Hebrew Monothestic faith, but they extend it to include the coming of Jesus and the out pooring of the holy spirit.


The Old Testament (Deut.6:4) stressed God's oneness to caution the Israelites against the polytheism and pratical atheism of their heathen neighbors. The word of God is recognized as the agent of creation (PS. 33:6,9; compare Prov. 3:19; 8:27), revelation, and salvation (Ps.107:20), vocabulary given distinct personality in John's prologue (John 1:1-4) in Jesus Christ. Other vocabulary categories include the wisdom of God (Prov. 8) and the spirit of God (Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:30; Zech. 4:6).

The New Testament evidence for the Trinity can be grouped into four types of passages. The first is the trinitarian formula of Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rev. 1:4.


Triadic form (Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Cor. 12:3-6). Emphasis is placed on the administration of gifts by the Godhead.


Mention of the three persons of the Godhead without a clear triadic structure. (e.g. The babtism of Jesus (Matt. 3:3-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke3:21-22), the Son was baptized, the Spirit descended, an dthe father spoke with approval. Paul, in Gal. 4:4-6, outlined the work of the Trinity in the aspectof the sending father. Other representative passages in this catogory (2 Thess. 2:13-15; Titus 3:4-6; and Jude 20-21) portray each member of the Trinity in relation to a particular redmptive function.


The farewell discourse of Jesus to His disciples (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:13-15). Jesus explained the work and ministry of the spirit as the agent of God in the continuing ministry of the Son.


The New Testament is Christological in it approach, but involves the fullness of God being made available to the individual believer through Jesus and by the spirit. In postbiblical era, discussion shifted from the New Testament emphasis on the function of the Trinity in redemptive history to analysis of the unity of essence of the Godhead.


Four statements can summarize and clarify this,

(1) God is One. The God of the OT is the same as the NT.

(2) God has three distinct ways of being in the redemptive event, Yet He remains an undivided unity.

(3) The primary way of grasping the concept of the Trinity is through the threefold participation in salvation.

(4) (This one for you Another_1) The doctrine of the Trinity is an absolute mystery. It is primarily known, not through speculation, but through experiencing the act of grace through personal faith.


nt. Two errors exist in the history of this doctrine; Tritheism, emphasing the Godhead to to the point that the Trinity is seen as three separate entities, and unitarianism, which leave the Holy Spirit and Jesus less than divine when compared to the unity of God the father.

[Edited on 4-5-2003 by Maddas]

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me,
that they may be one,
as We are . . .
Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
That they all may be one;
as Thou,
Father,
art in Me,
and I in Thee,
that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).

Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26).

www.fatheralexander.org...

I agree with you on that.
A few nights ago I started looking through my NKJ Bible, since I don't have a KJ yet, to see evidence to support the Trinity. The Bible clearly states that the Word was manifested in the flesh as Jesus. The Word is said several times to be God. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are one. Jesus even said that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. God the Father also said He was the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Rev 1:8 Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," F3 says the Lord, F4 "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev1:11[Jesus] saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, F6 "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: F7 to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 21:6 6 And He (the words were not in red which if they were would signify Jesus speaking) said to me, "It is done! F113 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (The Son of God, Jesus)
1 Tim 3:14 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God F4 was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (Again referring to Jesus)
Heb 1 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself F1 purged our F2 sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? F3 And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? F4 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." F5 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." F6 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." F7 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." F8 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? F9 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
(Remember, God forbids anyone to worship anyone/thing that is not the true God, we also see that God calls His Son God)
(Jesus is the living God)
Heb 3:12 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
1 John 3:5,8 5 And you know that He [God, read previous verses] was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1John 5:7,20 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.(AKA the Trinity) 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life
Isaiah 9:6 6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Also refers to the Holy Trinity)
Rom 9:5 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Philip. 2:5-8 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (God was manifested to live as one of us and to perfectly live in obediance to the Father)
There are plenty more verses that give proof that Jesus is God in the flesh.
I also think silentvoice.net... the "Knowing God Thesis" is something you might want to check out.

Originally posted by subalterna
A few nights ago I started looking through my NKJ Bible, since I don't have a KJ yet, to see evidence to support the Trinity. The Bible clearly states that the Word was manifested in the flesh as Jesus.

Correct.

The Word is said several times to be God. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are one.

Wrong, not mentioned once.

Jesus even said that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. God the Father also said He was the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

No, and the quote does not even exist in earlier versions of the Bible.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

???

Rev 1:8 Jesus: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," F3 says the Lord, F4 "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev1:11[Jesus] saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, F6 "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: F7 to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 21:6 6 And He (the words were not in red which if they were would signify Jesus speaking) said to me, "It is done! F113 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Proving what exactly?

John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

How many times do I have to ask for a verse that teaches me that there is a Trinuine God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. lol

Now, since "Helen670" can flood the board with links from ANTI-ISLAMIC websites, I will link to an Anti-Christian website simply for information. However, I am not ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

www.answering-christianity.com...

d3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (The Son of God, Jesus)
1 Tim 3:14 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God F4 was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (Again referring to Jesus)
Heb 1 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself F1 purged our F2 sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? F3 And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? F4 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." F5 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." F6 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." F7 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." F8 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? F9 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
(Remember, God forbids anyone to worship anyone/thing that is not the true God, we also see that God calls His Son God)
(Jesus is the living God)
Heb 3:12 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
1 John 3:5,8 5 And you know that He [God, read previous verses] was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

1John 5:7,20 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.(AKA the Trinity)

Wrong.

Read about "The Lie of John 5:7" ->

wings.buffalo.edu...

D20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God

No, it's a contradiction to say "the son of God is the True God".

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Also refers to the Holy Trinity)

How does it refer to the "Holy Trinity" (a word that is never even mentioned)?

Please be specific.

Rom 9:5 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Blah blah Christ came in flesh I get it, but where is the teaching of the "Holy Trinity" ? ::??::

Philip. 2:5-8 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (God was manifested to live as one of us and to perfectly live in obediance to the Father)
There are plenty more verses that give proof that Jesus is God in the flesh.
I also think silentvoice.net... the "Knowing God Thesis" is something you might want to check out.

No, please post a verse where Jesus said he is GOD.

& the following is taken from www.thereligioustruth.com ->

"'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good except God alone.'" - Mark 10:18

"So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.'" - John 8:28

"The father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16

"Jesus said to them, 'Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.'" - Matthew 13:57

"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'" - John 7:16

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

Peace.

Originally posted by helen670
To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity.

Then it will be no problem for you to show me a verse teaching it

Oh, and can you please, and honestly tell me why you use the phrase "Holy Trinity"? The reason I'm asking is because it is not taught in your Book.

Originally posted by Maddas
The doctrine of the Trinity is an absolute mystery.

[Edited on 4-5-2003 by another_one]

Originally posted by subalterna
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are one.

I don't see Jesus anywhere in there?!?!?!

Originally posted by Maddas
(4) (This one for you Another_1) The doctrine of the Trinity is an absolute mystery. It is primarily known, not through speculation, but through experiencing the act of grace through personal faith.

There is no mystery. I have said this constantly. The trinity concept was put together by Constantine to unify the roman empire and keep it from breaking out in civil war again

But you're wrong about that, Constantine had nothing to do with the trinity.

Constantine was introduced to the trinity debates which existed before he became emperor.

Constantine had no role in shaping trinity doctrine.

To suggest that Constantine introduced trinity doctrine from pagan sources is false.

Constantine did enforce the trinity, ruthlessly.

Constantine stopped worshipping the sun at his conversion many years before Nicea.

[Edited on 4-5-2003 by Lysergic]

A most excellent presentation of the issues. There is little, in truth, to add to the references here: one can trawl through the OT looking at the 2,700 or whatever references to God as a grammatical plural, or find odd snippets such as Micah on the everlasting one from Bethlehem.
But you will not find a literal unambiguous statement: had there been one, one doubts that the Early Church would have had three centuries of argument and controversy, or that Nicaea would have been imperative.
The Early Church Fathers (those that survive at least, and those who disagreed may have been suppressed -so it's scarcely a convincing case) do suggest that a Trinitarian doctrine was in place from early times.
It remains, as has been said, a Mystery.

Actually Lysergic, I'll adimt I was wrong and ill-informed of Constantine's involvement in issuing the Trinity.

However a little bit of research would do you good too

Apparently it seems Constantine was more the pagan than is commonly considered, while scholars can't say he never became a christian, they believe he was more of in the middle, and only issued many of his edicts, such as Trinity, and making Rome a Christian Empire, to simply solidify his power.

Afterall, we're talking about a nation on the verge of Civil war here.

Constantine stopped worshipping the sun at his conversion many years before Nicea.
^^^^
I believe I said he was a pagan with that statement.

Perhaps reading more carefully could be of benefit to you as well.

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by HKoT
But you're wrong about that, Constantine had nothing to do with the trinity.

You don�t believe me ?!!?!? LOOK IT UP!!! I have read from countless sources and seen a many of documentaries on this man. Where do you get your info from?!?!? Not the bible!!! You listen to what has been etched in your brain by your parents and priest. The kingdom of God is with in you. You ultimately decide what you want to believe. I base what I believe on two things. History and my faith in the oneness of God. I am on the purist of knowledge and that is truly what God wants us to do. To free our mind from the lies that have been passed down from generation to generation.

How bout this you go look up some info about Constantine then get back at me. Cause history speaks for itself. Nuff said

Originally posted by Lysergic
Constantine was introduced to the trinity debates which existed before he became emperor.

Constantine had no role in shaping trinity doctrine.

To suggest that Constantine introduced trinity doctrine from pagan sources is false.

Sorry to say that you are wrong on that note. I never said that the trinty was from pagen sources. When he became emperor christianity stoped being an underground religion. He thoughtthat he could unfiy under one religion. He was wornd there was still division. What do you do?!?! Trinity concept. Everyones happy. The trinity doesn't say he is God nor does it say he is not God. Just a "transended version" of God. do some research

I did not mean to imply that you said that, I was just stating a few facts.

Originally posted by Lysergic
Constantine stopped worshipping the sun at his conversion many years before Nicea.

But at his death his body was laid out just like those that worshiped the sun God. Makes you wonder if his conversion was true

The greatest accomplishment of Constantine during his lifetime was yet to come; the legalization of Christianity which entrenched itself in the Roman world henceforth. Constantine had signed a treaty with Licinius, who had become the sole Eastern Emperor after defeating Maximinius, but broke the treaty in 324 a conquered the entire Empire himself. His next task was to unify the Empire under a single religion, that of Christianity. The basis of modern Christianity is the Trinity, but at that time this concept had several different variations. The spectrum ranged from those who rejected it and claimed Jesus to be a prophet, to those who could count that 1+1+1= 3, and claimed Jesus to be one of three gods. The foundation for the Trinity being outlined in very advanced Greek, it was impossible for Constantine to entirely comprehend it himself. Yet, he naturally chose the diplomatic middle position and decided that God was three-in-one based on the theologians Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine. He convened the council of Nicaea in 325, in which the Creed outline his version of the relationship between Jesus and the Father. It is unfortunate that the relationship of Constantine and his own son could not be so close, as while he was in the West he had his eldest son and deputy emperor, Crispus, and his wife, Fausta, executed for reasons that remained a mystery. All other forms of Christianity that did not comply to this Creed, including Arianism, were labeled as heretics and were to be eliminated. To this day, Constantine�s Nicean Creed is used as the basis for determining who is a Christian, which is why Jehovah�s Witnesses, that rely heavily on the doctrine of Arianism, are still labelled as heretics today.

jews-for-allah.org...

"Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology."

www.sos.net...

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AFTER NICAEA

325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states:
"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.

335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.

341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.

359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters.

Different sources have conflicting views.

Wow abstract_alao, I was enjoying your debate with Lysergic until I saw that you didn't read me CORRECTING MYSELF, I admitted I was wrong that Constantine had nothing to do with it, what have you trouble reading the rest of the stuff?

Good Advice: Don't just write about the first thing that catches your eye.