Egyptian Stone Vases-The Smoking Gun In The Advanced Technology Debate?

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Harte
Of course, earlier, other remote controlled pyramids must have been sent down to guide those other remote controlled pyramids down, ad infinitum.

I was talking about Giza but I don't doubt there are pyramids with special qualities contained in the sacred geometry that give each design some esoteric ability to function in a specific way. You act like you know everything about everything, it's so egocentric and tedious.

Tedious?

Not at all like glomming on to the premise of Stargate as if it were some sort of reality!

Geez, what's next? A bat-a-rang? The Great Gazoo?

Don't tell me ... "Heroes" was a true story?

Harte

the giggle factor is all you have left. not one bit of a counter argument to move the discussion. all you can do now is make jokes.

"All I have left?"

When have you had anything here? You can't support a single statement you have made. I've supported every single statement I've made.

The joke here is your sparkly worldview.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
I've supported every single statement I've made.

that only happened inside your head. if everything you've cited was true why do they all say at one point or another "the issue is still unresolved and further testing is required"? Linear thinkers like you have a hard time connecting so many dots so it's understandable for you to think you know all the answers.

reply to post by mcx1942


Sorry I didn't read all the replies but what about acid? Could the use of acid not explain the making of these hollowed out vases?

Just an idea.. I have no clue if acid was known to the the ancient egyptians. But there is the Bagdad battery which could have worked with acid in it. Allthough weak acid but still acid...right?

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Harte
I've supported every single statement I've made.

that only happened inside your head. if everything you've cited was true why do they all say at one point or another "the issue is still unresolved and further testing is required"?

Duh.

Because nobody alive today ever actually saw it being done?

What's been conclusively proven is that it didn't take power tools to carve these stone objects.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by Harte
I've supported every single statement I've made.

that only happened inside your head. if everything you've cited was true why do they all say at one point or another "the issue is still unresolved and further testing is required"?

Duh.

Because nobody alive today ever actually saw it being done?

What's been conclusively proven is that it didn't take power tools to carve these stone objects.

Harte

really? I must've missed that. your sources didn't conclusively prove squat and are no more than bamboo technology. Explain to me why they would perfectly finish the inside of a 90 ton pieces of solid granite complete with a perfectly flat lid from the same single piece of stone at the Serapeum?


the most advanced technology today would have to make those sarcophagi out of several pieces and these were made in place in the tunnels. How did they get them in there? You really are amusing when you try to explain this away with your bamboo technology theory.

This is what this thread is about

Originally posted by mcx1942

Here are some more pictures of stone work. Remember these stone pieces were crafted before the advent of the Lathe, Wheel or Pottery Wheel(according to mainstream history).

I have provided links for when those tools were "invented" in Egypt in past posts in this thread.

How these pieces were crafted before the use of these tools is exactly why I am so fascinated with them. Either the Ancient Egyptians that crafted these had the Lathe, Wheel and Pottery Wheel at a time we are told they did not by mainstream history/archaeology.

The argument should be why history has the timeline wrong.

I have proven that the Ancient Egyptians did not use the tools needed to make the vases I presented, at the time they are from. History tells us that. So we must have the timeline wrong and the Ancient Egyptians had the Lathe, Wheel and or Pottery Wheel before mainstream history has told us they 'acquired' them.

Put very simply(according to mainstream history):

Petrie's Stone Vases: Dated to be from the Early Dynastic Period before 2,800 B.C or older. source

Lathes: Approximately 1,300 B.C source

Pottery Wheel: Old Kingdom Period approximately 2,700 B.C. source

Wheel: Not introduced into Egypt untill approximately 2,000 B.C.source

So this means that the mainstream timeline is incorrect if these vases were made using the Lathe, Wheel and or Pottery Wheel. Which by the evidence, looks like they were made using these tools. In a time we are told they did not use these tools.

That was my question from the very first post. The arguments have been essentially meaningless, not proving why mainstream history has their timelines wrong. If they have one part wrong, that would mean many parts would probably be wrong as well. Stop arguing with yourselves about how they were made and start asking why mainstream history/archaeology tells us, at the time the vases were made the tools needed to make them were not in Egypt yet?

The only tool even close to the vases time frame would be the pottery wheel. Even then these vases were probably made long before the advent. Also, if the Egyptians used the pottery wheel at around 2,700 B.C why did it take them 700 years to start using the actual wheel(2,000 B.C)?

It just does not make sense. How could they be using a pottery wheel for 700 years before they start using the actual wheel? The Ancient Egyptians were not ignorant. The Timeline is not right, according to mainstream thought. Am I the only one that thinks this is odd?

Originally posted by zatara
reply to post by mcx1942

 

Sorry I didn't read all the replies but what about acid? Could the use of acid not explain the making of these hollowed out vases?

Just an idea.. I have no clue if acid was known to the the ancient egyptians. But there is the Bagdad battery which could have worked with acid in it. Allthough weak acid but still acid...right?

the BB is formed out of clay and no you couldn't get the symmetry and geometric consistency with acid.

Originally posted by mcx1942
The Timeline is not right, according to mainstream thought. Am I the only one that thinks this is odd?

no not at all. I think it is odd and I think it is because aliens are involved and the mainstream doesn't want to talk about it.

Originally posted by mcx1942
This is what this thread is about



The argument should be why history has the timeline wrong.

I have proven that the Ancient Egyptians did not use the tools needed to make the vases I presented, at the time they are from. History tells us that. So we must have the timeline wrong and the Ancient Egyptians had the Lathe, Wheel and or Pottery Wheel before mainstream history has told us they 'acquired' them.

Put very simply(according to mainstream history):

Petrie's Stone Vases: Dated to be from the Early Dynastic Period before 2,800 B.C or older. source

Lathes: Approximately 1,300 B.C source

Pottery Wheel: Old Kingdom Period approximately 2,700 B.C. source

Wheel: Not introduced into Egypt untill approximately 2,000 B.C.source

So this means that the mainstream timeline is incorrect if these vases were made using the Lathe, Wheel and or Pottery Wheel. Which by the evidence, looks like they were made using these tools. In a time we are told they did not use these tools.

That was my question from the very first post. The arguments have been essentially meaningless, not proving why mainstream history has their timelines wrong. If they have one part wrong, that would mean many parts would probably be wrong as well. Stop arguing with yourselves about how they were made and start asking why mainstream history/archaeology tells us, at the time the vases were made the tools needed to make them were not in Egypt yet?

The only tool even close to the vases time frame would be the pottery wheel. Even then these vases were probably made long before the advent. Also, if the Egyptians used the pottery wheel at around 2,700 B.C why did it take them 700 years to start using the actual wheel(2,000 B.C)?

It just does not make sense. How could they be using a pottery wheel for 700 years before they start using the actual wheel? The Ancient Egyptians were not ignorant. The Timeline is not right, according to mainstream thought. Am I the only one that thinks this is odd?

edit on 12/14/2012 by mcx1942 because: edit

edit on 12/14/2012 by mcx1942 because: edit

the timeline does just about fit with the Potter's wheel or within the margins of error. It is very unlikely they found the very first wheel. I agree with you on the timelines being really out of kilter, but they are the best we have.

The wheel itself was not so important since so much traffic was water based.

Will

reply to post by mcx1942


A well deserved star and flag for a well done and informative thread on just the kind of topic that will keep coming to ATS. And for exactly this kind of interesting reading.

Hell of a job.

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by zatara
reply to post by mcx1942

 

Sorry I didn't read all the replies but what about acid? Could the use of acid not explain the making of these hollowed out vases?

Just an idea.. I have no clue if acid was known to the the ancient egyptians. But there is the Bagdad battery which could have worked with acid in it. Allthough weak acid but still acid...right?

the BB is formed out of clay and no you couldn't get the symmetry and geometric consistency with acid.

Yeah..I got that. But that was not what my replie is about.

I mean if those hollowed out (stone)vases maybe are hollowed out with the use of acid. I mentioned the BB because of the knowledge of acid and its properties.

Originally posted by zatara

Originally posted by bottleslingguy

Originally posted by zatara
reply to post by mcx1942

 

Sorry I didn't read all the replies but what about acid? Could the use of acid not explain the making of these hollowed out vases?

Just an idea.. I have no clue if acid was known to the the ancient egyptians. But there is the Bagdad battery which could have worked with acid in it. Allthough weak acid but still acid...right?

the BB is formed out of clay and no you couldn't get the symmetry and geometric consistency with acid.

Yeah..I got that. But that was not what my replie is about.

I mean if those hollowed out (stone)vases maybe are hollowed out with the use of acid. I mentioned the BB because of the knowledge of acid and its properties.

what type of acid are you talking about and how is it done to achieve what we find?

Originally posted by zatara
Yeah..I got that. But that was not what my replie is about.

I mean if those hollowed out (stone)vases maybe are hollowed out with the use of acid. I mentioned the BB because of the knowledge of acid and its properties.

Acid, no, but heat would absolutely make the stone easier to saw.

Put a little fire on top of the blank for an hour or two then saw down a half inch or so. Then put a little fire in the resulting hole for another hour or two and saw down another half inch or so.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Harte

Very interesting read. It is amazing what the Egyptians with supposedly simple tools could do hahaha. But here is something that might interest everyone in how technologically advanced the Egyptians really were and how far that technology reached.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by OOOOOO

Originally posted by tri-lobe-1
Hello mcx1942.....
None of the experts on this site make their income from carving stone.....

On that you might be mistaken, as I do cut and crave stone to make income. I use more modern tools, than just a hammer and chisel . I use air tools, diamond saws, drills, laser beams, electric belt sanders, drills, planes and lathes. As for being expert, I am no Micheal Angelo, but I get by.I have to measure and mark reference points, I can't just do it as Micheal Angelo, was suppose to of been able to.

With the tools on hand, in these times, I could make many of these objects, granite is a lot harder to work with and polish, than say marble, but it is the same process.

I kind of get off, on granite plates and bowls, compared to what you buy at Walmart, and plastic is the pits.

Hello OOOOOO,

you would be the first person to respond to have stone working skills.....who earns their income from this skill...in my time on ats....a couple of years......

I'm very interested in the......lathe work of stone......horizontal or vertical.........from a practical point of veiw....

From a modern perspective......How would you copy/reproduce the stone vessels in this thread????????


When I served my apprenticeship as a machinist I was informed that the reason that we can machine and carve steel is because our machines are rigid.....hence no vibration on the work-piece while the cutting is taking place......

Now I have seen pics of stone grinding between centres......modern day approach ....useing electricty.....

All with strong,ridgid, heavy.....need a fork-lift to move ....affairs.

To machine steel/stone i need a tool that can handle all the opposing forces that will be encounted.....the whole affair must be rigid....even if the cutting tool is hand held on a rest....ie woodturning lathe....

IF one looks at the tools used during the 1700's and 1800's ....pre-electricity.....there were human powered lathes....the apprentice would turn a large crank-handle to produce rotary motion and the tradesman would carve away......a great way to use up the energy of youth.....
There was also treadle-power as in the old grandma's sewing machine.....great for small stuff.....what ever the material to be carved .....ie timber, metal, ivory....

Now i have a book 1880....reprinted 1976....Hand or simple turning,Principles and Practices..by John Jacob Holtzapffel........it shows horizontal and vertical machines with stone/masonary bodies....ie lathe bed and a vertical boreing machine at Soho naval yards......the bodies were brick and the moving parts.....stock,toolpost and tailstock were metal...ie brass....

Guess how much of this tooling is left from Soho naval yards???......none.......just prints in books

What's this got to do with old kingdom stone work???

Well in our time to work hard materials in a round or cylindrical manner we need tools of a substancial manner......no tree limbs lashed together with hemp rope here.......though the bean counters probably wish we could.....

IF in our times we need a fair bit of kit to reproduce these old kingdom stone works to-day.....I wonder what makes people think that one can can do it with branches,hemp and a potters wheel???


000000.....I'm sure that many members....including myself....would appreciate your opinion on the above....from your practical,income earning point of view.....ie Do you think that you could carve a stone bowl as per old kingdom useing tree branches and rope with a hand held tool????

in advance...thankyou...

Hello members....

I wanted to give this thread a bump........i think that there's more to this subject than a lot of people realize.....

from a general stand-point.....in the Cairo Museum we are presented pounding balls and soft copper chisels... for dealing with stone...i did see a bow drill ..but it was for working wood.....

Well thats it for working stone....not much considering that ....a very large amount of stone work was done.....

From giant civil stone-works......to delicate stone artisitic vases......

Yep....pounding stones and copper chisels did everything.......asked the experts,they'll tell you.....hell they'll even write books and sell them to you.......I'm sorry......I thought that was the crime of the fringes.....

Damm.... i thought with 000000 i was going to chat with a member with practical/professional......real-life views....

Jesus.....i got to listen to the expert book worms again on ATS.......not many practical/doing posters in this area.....

actually.....i think i'm the only person on ATS to even bother making a model/copy ....modern day and materials...of an item from the old kingdom........to put my money where my mouth is ...to practice what i preach...

am i surrounded by solf hand theorists with only book skills??????...............

reply to post by tri-lobe-1

Happy festivist to all members....

3yrs ago i joined ats to talk about the.....tri-lobe schist bowl.....i've learnt alot...

The main thing that i have learnt is that .........there are no stone working experts in this area.....even in the world of the whinges....

The hall of maat.....no stone working professionals there..
ATS..........................no stone working professionals here..
UEM........................no stone working professionals there..

as a member i have looked at the earlier posts than my joining......say 3yrs back.....in the old kingdom context..

In 6 yrs ......nothing new or innovative.....or practical.......from a member.......of any of the above in the area of old kingdom stone-works......

most stuff that is given as methods to us is middle/new kingdom....that might satisfy a uni-student that need pass an exam......to me it does not cut the mustard...from a practical point of view......

I cant use any of the above opinions....from any of these web sites.......and go out and carve stone vases as per old kingdom........not one of the experts has practiced what they have preached.......no modern day replica from stone.....hell not even a timber replica......cad drawings dont count,lazy mans tool...

god.....i wish some one would replicate an old kingdom vase out of .....timber....as per the standard explaination...

reply to post by tri-lobe-1


Good post tri-lobe.

This is one of my favorite subjects on ATS except for, as you say, the bookworm ninjas. My original reply to this thread some X pages back asked a simple question:

Do we have any modern examples of large statues, for example, made with the tools and methods supposedly used by the AE? You know, reconstruct history to prove or disprove theories. I just find it a little hard to believe a horde of slaves were set to task with wooden hammers and rope and POOF: Luxor.

All I've read is it would take too long, there is no motivation to do so, too expensive, no one knows how to do it, blah blah blah. Yet, the theories abound from those writing/selling books and Kool-Aid from the academic high ground. So and so has got it right, so and so is full of BS. Just talk.

Very depressing.

reply to post by ABNARTY

Hey abnarty....

Thanks for the reply.....i agree with you 100%.....where are the physical examples by modern day proponents whether they be students/professionals.....applying the proposed methods and tools.....

I watched a US program with Mark Lehner....and he wanted to carver/prove his theory about AE stone working/carving......using copper chisels.

what a joke to watch.......first off this so-called expert got some-one else to do all the work.....and suffer the limitations...time,things took way longer than the expert planned.....frustrations with the copper chisels,they could only hold an edge for 2 or 3 wacks with the mallet.....i'm sure that they swapped to steel tools to finnish in the programs aloted time....

what really struck me was that this expert had never worked with these tools .....even to try his theory at home/work. ......but yet his opinion[ he or any one else cant apply it ].......is considered expert??????......

His whole theory for stone working.......was like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.....it was so forced....and totally UN-REPLICATABLE by any one else......

The future will probably lay with non-experts/privateers who do things out of interest and not money....

I'm over theories with no practical/replicatable examples from the proponents of said theory.......if an expert can't practice what they preach.......well they ain't an expert......it dont matter how many letters they have after their name.......they just talk and talk.......but they do talk correctly.....and they know what book/study to quote to make their opinion sound correct.....

I'll repeat....cad drawings and theories don't prove anything

Hey abnarty...

I believe that this Old Kingdom stone vase making is a subject that can be opened up by using some aspects of modern engineering fields......how could we make a copy now????....what working, holding,turning device would one need to -day to copy one of these vases????......

Even if one took the easy path and craved the copy out of timber....just to prove a concept....before commiting to stone...

After doing the above one would have a bench mark.....yes a modern one.....a better starting point than a guess.

Knowing what we need to-day to copy an OK vase.....would allow one to work backwards and suss out a method that would have been available to the AE's using appropriate materials...to do the job....

One thing that i did notice on my trips to the Cario Museum is that most of the fancy vases are less than 12"/300mm high......a minor amount taller....the tri-lobe schist bowl is 24"/600mm in diameter x 6"/150mm high..it's the odd one out compared to the others.....

I have heard of ologists being offened because outsiders dare ask questions from a modern persective.....OOOHHH you cant look at history with a modern perspective.....where engineering is concerned i think that anyone can...