Syria - Update and Information thread

Actually, that Bambuser feed showed a crowd of people waving flags, so I looked up which flag it was. Turned out to be Kurdish.

I just read an article which says that the Kurds are going to end up, and have ended up fighting the rebels, even though they are actually against Assad. So...it's very complicated for sure...As far as I understand it, they wouldn't mind to see Assad go, b/c ultimately they want a Kurdish state to be carved out of a portion of Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria (I think?!), and they are not going to get that from Assad. However, they are definitely NOT going to get that from the FSA, which most likely is or will end up being another front for the Muslim Brotherhood. Which, again, is NOT what the original 'revolutionaries' were fighting for. That would translate into LESS freedom, not MORE.

Syria is one of the last secular countries in the middle east and the majority of the Syrian people, from what I understand, don't want that changing. So, they are throwing their support behind Assad, even those that had opposed him beforehand, because they understand that whatever comes as a result of his downfall will be far far worse.

From the article:

"Although Syria’s Kurds are opposed to the Assad regime, most have sought to remain neutral in the armed rebellion seeking to topple him.

Over time, they have been dragged into the fighting, after rebel assaults on majority Kurdish areas in key northern provinces."

english.alarabiya.net...

I also came across this article, which is largely an opinion piece as it doesn't link to any, or few facts, but is interesting nonetheless, and includes discussion of Syria in the last 2/3.

"The Snake Behind The Arab Spring" 14 November 2011 Elias Akleh
mwcnews.net...

The US and France, particularly, had pushed for many harsh sanctions against Syria through the UN. Fortunately they could not obtain a military interference under the excuse of protecting Syrian citizens, as was done in Libya, because of the Russian and Chinese veto threat. So the Arab League, a Western tool, was pushed to play pressuring active role in Syria. It seems that many Arab leaders, especially Gulf leaders, who cynically call for democratic regime in Syria, have forgotten that they, themselves, employ family autocratic dictatorships in their own countries. Despite this fact the Syrian government had accepted the Arab League plan. The oppositional Syrian National Council rejected the plan and intensified its violence against the Syrian army inviting harsh retaliation. So the Arab League suspended Syria’s membership and threatened economic and political sanctions. Such are illegal actions contradicting the constitution of the Arab League that had never made a decision benefiting any Arab state, but legalized the many Western military interference in the Middle East such as in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, and Libya. We should mention here that the Arab League had refused to receive a petition from the slaughtered Bahraini people requesting protection. Thousands of people within different Arab states demonstrated against the decision of Arab League in front of Qatar’s and Saudi Arabia’s embassies.

It has become obvious that the Syrian oppositional groups are divided and have different aspirations some of them are conflicting and confusing. This division and confusion are due to the background of each oppositional group. The Western paid groups are armed seeking violent regime change and call for foreign interference the same as in Libya. The genuine oppositional groups reject any foreign interference fearing the same fate of Libya, and seek drastic reform through dialogue.

Here is the article I mentioned earlier about the Syrian Human Rights Council. A few excerpts:

West's Syrian Narrative Based on "Guy in British Apartment"
Opposition propagandist in England apartment is, and has been, the sole source cited by the Western press.
by Tony Cartalucci June 4, 2012

landdestroyer.blogspot.ca...

"The "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" has been cited by the Western media for over a year in nearly every report, regardless of which news agency, be it AFP, AP, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, BBC, or any of the largest Western newspapers. One would believe this to be a giant sprawling organization with hundreds of members working hard on the ground, documenting evidence in Syria with photographs and video, while coordinating with foreign press to transparently and objectively "observe" the "human rights" conditions in Syria, as well as demonstrate their methodologies. Surely that is the impression the Western media attempts to relay to its readers.

...

"Clearly for real journalists, Abdulrahman is a useless, utterly compromised source of information who has every reason to twist reality to suit his admittedly politically-motivated agenda of overthrowing the Syrian government. However, for a propagandist, he is a goldmine. That is why despite the overt conflict of interests, the lack of credibility, the obvious disadvantage of being nearly 3,000 miles away from the alleged subject of his "observations," or the fact that a single man is ludicrously calling himself a "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" in the first place, the Western media still eagerly laps up his constant torrent of disinformation."

And when the Western press cites such a dubious, compromised character, it means that the actual evidence inevitably trickling out of Syria contradicts entirely the West's desired narrative, so profoundly in fact, that they must contrive the summation of their "evidence" from whole cloth with "tailors" like Abdelrahman. And while the general public should indeed be angry over being deceived on such a vast scale, they should be utterly outraged that the establishment thinks they are so stupid - they'd believe any evidence coming from an opposition activist, disingenuously masquerading as a reputable organization, telling us all what is happening in Syria via "phone-calls" received in his plush apartment in England."

***Which/whom I should add, is still being referenced as an authority to this day

Here is another article from on the SOHR from rt, who, being Russian can be expected to have a bias in this situation, but are overall more reputable than a lot of other sources.

"Russia questions credibility of Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" Feb 25, 2012
rt.com...

"The activities of the controversial London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights have been denounced by Russia’s Foreign Ministry with spokesman Aleksandr Lukashevich casting doubts on SOHR’s reliability.

"As far as we know, this organization employs only two people (its head and secretary-translator). It is headed by Rami Abdulrahman, who has no training either in journalism or law or even a complete secondary education," Lukashevich said.

The SOHR is one of the most widely-quoted sources of Syrian casualty figures and Lukashevich pointed out that many information agencies, primary Western ones, often refer to SOHR data in their reports on Syria.

In fact there are two sites each claiming to be an official observatory and providing different data. The original site is indeed controlled by Rami Abdulrahman, while the man behind the duplicate is Mousab Azzawi, who had worked as a translator for the original SOHR and launched his own SOHR site in December after he was fired.

Both sites report slightly different figures, none of which can be independently confirmed, leaving media outlets wondering how reliable their sources are. "

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
Hey if you want Syrians to be in a civil war the rest of their lives fine by me. Because until Assad goes, or a new government is formed, that's what is going to happen.

The whole point is it isn't a civil war... When foreign militia are invading a sovereign nation, someone has declared war on Syria. Similar to when 9/11 happened and the USA invaded Afganistan.

maybe if the FSA didn't hide amongst the population (Sort of like a Hamas style war) civilians wouldn't die and with that, Assad wouldn't have to bomb the crap out of his own cities...

You aren't a journalist, but I am. I am sure not going to accuse the all of the FSA as being terrorists, because it is totally false and misleading. Most of the people of the FSA are defected Syrian soldiers or everyday citizens who decided to join a rebellion. If you think that makes someone a terrorist then so be it. At least in the US we have the constitutional duty to stand up against tyranny in the government.

If you think the FSA are all Syrian people, then you need to become a better journalist. I know the FSA may not all be terrorists, but I also know that if the same was to happen in my country or yours, terrorist would be the first word mentioned.

There is more than enough proof to suggest that Assad and Co. are just as evil. Anyone who kills civilians without a second thought is just the same as a terrorist.

So I guess you believe the FSA aren't killing civilians also?

How and where they choose to set up their website is their decision. I am sorry it's not hosted somewhere else. If you have an issue with how "rag tag" their site is, I am sure you can email them.

They are not reputable sources. I don't have a problem with anyones website but when it comes to reliable, the only ones accepted are the ones from the MSM apparently.

Lebanon army attacked by FSA

The above could be happening on a regular basis.. Even on other countries border to incite attacks from abroad.

Heres a reminder of who could be possibly fighting in Syria alongside the rebels

The UN Security Council has not yet officially recognized Syria as a country confronting international terrorism. Last month, Syria delivered a previous version of the list containing 108 names.

The new list contains the names of citizens from 19 countries accused of joining Syria’s rebels: Afghanistan, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Chad, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Pakistan, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Turkey, Yemen and Chechnya. Since Chechnya is not a country, but a republic of the Russian Federation, the list likely contains names of Russian citizens.

It seems as though the FSA have got support fromall over the Middle East and parts of Africa.

22/11/2012 - The UN and Syria

And this is why, Assad will not be toppled quickly...

The Syrian government is still supported by Russia and China, who provide diplomatic backing for Damascus and have used their veto power in the UN Security Council to block several Western initiatives aimed at ousting President Bashar Assad.

We have the West condemning Assad, yet the countries who have stood by Assad over the years are still backing him.

Heres another question for you Dragon..

You and others accuse the Syrian (and I'll add the Iranian) regimes of being oppressive, dictators or even guilty of crimes against humanity. Thats fine, but how do you explain this: Saudi Arabia are very similar to both of those countries when it comes to oppression, dictators and maybe even crimes against humanity, certainly womans rights to say the least. Why isn't Saudi Arabia getting the same treatment? Why are they able to back and fund the FSA when they themselves have a very similar set up in their country? Do we just brush that under the carpet because they are close oil allies of the West?

"Most of the people of the FSA are defected Syrian soldiers or everyday citizens who decided to join a rebellion."

This might have been true in the beginning, and I'm not sure it is, but it is not true now. I just saw an article, which I lost and am trying to find, where one of the leaders of the FSA says this himself, and that they are having difficulties controlling the outsiders.

reply to post by curiouscanadian777

Right . The fighters we see shooting on RT and elsewhere are not the original Syrian protesters. Their marches were peaceful.

Take Egypt for instance. It is different from Libya and Syria because there was no interest on the part of the US Government to subvert the country militarily. The Egyptian military is armed and funded by the US already. So there the revolution was carried off without guns. Now we see that Morsi is the same as Mubarak... another US puppet. Qaddafi and Assad are different. There the Arab spring was/is hijacked by outside money and arms.

reply to post by DarknStormy


Actually no...I don't use the word terrorist everyday. I certainly don't use it to describe all members of the FSA like some people have in this thread. These people are/were revolutionaries...rebels. That is not a terrorist.

Assad started bombing his own cities, and people, shooting them down, when they protested against him and his government. That's how it started. You can't expect a people to sit down and not defend themselves when the government blows up peaceful protesters. Revolutionaries hide amongst the people. In 1776, before my country was the US, they were doing the same exact thing. Yet it isn't called the 'American terrorist revolution.'

In my opinion, the UN is more of a joke than it is a serious entity these days. They couldn't even agree to a statement on Gaza/Israel. The UN could've done a lot more, but since governments want to play politics with the lives of people in the world, nothing sensible gets done.

I don't agree with the oppression of any people, females, males or homosexuals. With that said, I don't condone the acts of the government of Saudi Arabia either.

We are all humans...this is earth and we live here. We have to deal with it and killing each other and oppressing one another isn't helping the situation, no matter what side you are on.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by curiouscanadian777

 

Right . The fighters we see shooting on RT and elsewhere are not the original Syrian protesters. Their marches were peaceful.

Take Egypt for instance. It is different from Libya and Syria because there was no interest on the part of the US Government to subvert the country militarily. The Egyptian military is armed and funded by the US already. So there the revolution was carried off without guns. Now we see that Morsi is the same as Mubarak... another US puppet. Qaddafi and Assad are different. There the Arab spring was/is hijacked by outside money and arms.

The more the people realize this, the more things can change. Can't expect it all to happen overnight. Money talks and everyone wants some.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
Actually no...I don't use the word terrorist everyday. I certainly don't use it to describe all members of the FSA like some people have in this thread. These people are/were revolutionaries...rebels. That is not a terrorist.

Well sorry, I do when it is well known that those types of people are also operating in Syria. How can the FSA be trusted if they have been infiltrated by those groups?

Assad started bombing his own cities, and people, shooting them down, when they protested against him and his government. That's how it started. You can't expect a people to sit down and not defend themselves when the government blows up peaceful protesters. Revolutionaries hide amongst the people. In 1776, before my country was the US, they were doing the same exact thing. Yet it isn't called the 'American terrorist revolution.'

It started when western armed militias started firing on populated areas in Syria. If that wasn't enough, we sent them more weapons and money. The FSA have killed civilians, especially civilians who do not support their cause. You make it sound as though Assad is the only one who has attcked protesters... Bahrain killed dozensof protesters when the uprising also occured there.. Why aren't we sending in weapons to that country to topple the dictatorship?

In my opinion, the UN is more of a joke than it is a serious entity these days. They couldn't even agree to a statement on Gaza/Israel. The UN could've done a lot more, but since governments want to play politics with the lives of people in the world, nothing sensible gets done.

The UN is a joke. I agree with you.

I don't agree with the oppression of any people, females, males or homosexuals. With that said, I don't condone the acts of the government of Saudi Arabia either.

But because Saudi Arabia are friends of the western governments, they can get away with anything. Because Assad and Ahmadinejad have been depicted as oppressive dictators and do not agree with western views, we can't have that.. The hypocracy is unbelievable.

We are all humans...this is earth and we live here. We have to deal with it and killing each other and oppressing one another isn't helping the situation, no matter what side you are on.

Agreed. Who ever invented weapons wasn't a genius thats for sure.

reply to post by curiouscanadian777

"Most of the people of the FSA are defected Syrian soldiers or everyday citizens who decided to join a rebellion."

Where i have this before? oh thats right during Libya" Most of the people of the Libyan Rebels are defected Libyans or everyday citizens who decided to join a rebellion"

I am sorry to say this no one anymore is buying that.

reply to post by DragonFire1024

Assad started bombing his own cities, and people, shooting them down, when they protested against him and his government. That's how it started.

Thats incorrect Assad Government Security forces haven't started shooting the Holy Saints according to you, the Shooting happened after the protests turned to violence by some in the crowd, killed four police officers which was spread to by burning down a few police stations.

Assad started bombing his own cities

And where i have read that before? "Gaddafi started bombing his own cities"

Assad Government military forces haven't started bombing his own cities, maybe you could explain why the FSA and there buddies are always hiding among civilians?

Lets not forget the fact your FSA buddies Dragonfire are using Child Soldiers and are still using them. Since people arent so willing to join there Saudi Arabian, Qatari backed uprising.

In his 11 years in power, can you tell me whether at any stage Bashar Al Assad has been accused of any crimes against the people of Syria? Without going into the uprisings which occured last year?

It seems to me the West and Syria couldn't come to an agreement defining terrorism and next thing you know, Syria are put in the firing line. Remember though, Syria has also come under attack from islamic militants in the past. Not long ago, the US and other countries were visiting Syria, Syria was in dialogue with other countries in the region also. Where did the turning point come?

Why after all the steps forward,did some schmuck decide Assad was nothing but a terrorist harbouring dictator? Check out this timeline from the BBC website. At no stage have I seen anything to suggest that Assad is a dictator, has oppressed the people of his country or even attacked another country...

I don't know what his dad done but that surely cannot be put on the forehead of Bashar. The guy has been in power for 11 years and again, I cannot find anything to suggest that he is the big bad wolf like the western media and governments suggest.

Syrian Timeline - 1918 to present

I understand both sides are likely killing innocents in Syria right now, but why does the west ignore an attack on a sovereign nation which is being invaded by mercenaries who most likely don't give two hoots about the people of Syria?

reply to post by curiouscanadian777

You are right about the Kurds wanting their own state. Remember the countries that exist today were drawn uo by the victors in WWII, namely the British empire and big oil. The border between some of them were laid simply because they followed oil pipelines of the time.

Look at the Kurdish struggle to be an independent state kind of like the IRA struggle against the British crown, the Palestinian quest for their homeland and others likeSpain, (New Caledonia), China and Tibet.

...the majority of the Syrian people, from what I understand, don't want that changing. So, they are throwing their support behind Assad, even those that had opposed him beforehand, because they understand that whatever comes as a result of his downfall will be far far worse.

Theres one primary difference between Syria and other targets like Libya and Afghanistan. Any country you care to name generally has some dissatisfied element protesting the government however, the most of Syria's population and military identify with the government so they will be a tougher nut to crack. In that interview you link on PBS, Assad is heard to say that with all the countries arrayed against him like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Nato and the US? He would not last long if he didn't have the support of his people ad the Army. Libya and Afghanistan stand alone whereas Syria has back up help from Russia and Iran, maybe even China. They did veto the UN resolution to intervene in Syria. Twice.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by curiouscanadian777

 

Right . The fighters we see shooting on RT and elsewhere are not the original Syrian protesters. Their marches were peaceful.

Take Egypt for instance. It is different from Libya and Syria because there was no interest on the part of the US Government to subvert the country militarily. The Egyptian military is armed and funded by the US already. So there the revolution was carried off without guns. Now we see that Morsi is the same as Mubarak... another US puppet. Qaddafi and Assad are different. There the Arab spring was/is hijacked by outside money and arms.

The more the people realize this, the more things can change. Can't expect it all to happen overnight. Money talks and everyone wants some.

Glad you see it too.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter


r.e. How it started

I am trying to find reports and sources to back this up.

It is widely assumed to be fact, what are really allegations.

It is unfortunate and a great tragedy and injustice that many people don't know that what happened in Libya was neither justified nor to the benefit of the Libyan people; and that it is almost certain that the same thing, by the same people/parties is happening with Syria.

reply to post by intrptr


r.e. Russia and China's veto's

Yes, at the same time that they do have their own interests, I think they were apalled at what happened with/to Libya and Gaddafi, and that they had gone along with it.

Though, I am probably being naive...It seems they had no problem with the whole charade, they just hadn't agreed with or to the assassination...Well, they agreed to the no-fly zone, and it was a done deal after that.

But yeah, regardless of their motivations, I respect them for refusing to be bullied into supporting what is an illegal act under International law. It's crazy, upside down, that it is been spun into them being 'the bad guys'.

Ah, and as you said, Assad is no Gaddafi and Syria is not Libya.

Whatever his faults and virtues, Gadaffi had his fingers in a lot of pies and was no doubt part of a lot of double-deals and double-crosses over the last 40 odd years; whereas Assad has only been in power for 11 yrs and had moved away from his fathers ways, if I understand it correctly.

I will give updates when needed. But I am not going to contribute to a conversation in a thread labeled "update and information" when all it is here for is to spew opinions about a people no one has any proof of. I don't care what your opinions are. I am here to get updates and facts. If you want to make implications and accusations then make a thread for that. People shouldn't have to sit here and read to the garbage you guys are typing.

I appreciate your contribution and hope you will continue to post updates etc.

I did say in the OP that it would likely take a few pages to sort out what actually is happening.

Remember- the WMD in Iraq were a 'fact' too, until suddenly, it wasn't.

I am looking for sources/reports to prove what the truth of it is. I hope that is possible.