20 Questions Christians Can't Answer!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by SubAce

 

No. It's just that I don't care. No matter what way you slice it, I'd sooner spit on "God" than bow to him. I'm here to see if, by some chance, I might be wrong in thinking it's just a giant stack of metaphors. And if it really is just a pile of analogies, then I want to help you guys realize the truth, because as it is, you're holding yourselves back.

Christianity is preventing mankind from attaining its true potential because we are afraid of our true potential. But that's the only way we'll move forward!

And this is where I think you're wrongest of all. Get a version of the bible with modern wording... NIV or something like that... something easy to read.. and read a couple of the Gospels. Just the ones that deal with the life of Christ. If you take him literally, Christ is telling you that we are ALL sons of god, and that we ALL have the power to work the same miracles that he performed if you truly have the faith that you can do it. This is not a message of holding back at all. Most mainstream Science tells us we CAN'T do these things. I ask you which one sounds more limiting?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Philippines

 

I find it a little strange that the most pivotal character in the Bible isn't allowed to speak for himself, except through other mens' words. Seems a little suspicious to me.

And unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here (which I don't think I am) I take this as proof that you've never even read the book you've spent so much time ridiculing-- instead relying on the interpretations of others to ridicule, regarding the book you've never read, but basing your opinion of the entire religion itself on the opinions of isolated members. Lumping together the catholics with the protestants with the adventists with the essenes with the baptists, all under one convenient and easily hate-able label you can point at. Almost like darwin classifying all living creatures as "stuff." That's some highly scientific method you've got there.

Originally posted by Philippines


Ok, so the discussion point we're at now is (feel free to correct):

- Paul wrote Romans, in particular Romans 2:12-15, which says that gentiles living outside "the law" will be judged outside of "the law"

Correct. I haven't searched the entire Old Testament on the word "righteous" yet, but I'm pretty sure that it states that those who lived before Christ will be judged with righteousness by their own righteousness. They will be judged by their actions as well as what's in their hearts and minds.

- Paul is acknowledged as a "divinely inspired" writer of many new testament books, though he never saw Jesus Christ once while he walked the Earth.

Correct. The whole Bible was inspired by God, meaning that all of the books that were written (even those written before the time of Jesus), so people didn't have to see Jesus in the flesh in order to be "inspired by God" or be visited by the Holy Spirit (which is what happened in Paul's case). Jesus told his followers that after his death that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak the truth to them after he was gone.

You might want to read the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 to get another understanding of the Holy Spirit. The disciples didn't always agree with each other, but they all seemed to know that the commands of the Holy Spirit were different for each of them, which is why Paul started out as the only one preaching to the Gentiles.

If/after we get over the hurdle of someone (Paul) writing about half of the new testament (13 books out of 27), all the while never witnessing the gospel of Jesus, we can argue the credibility of the writer or accept his writing as plausible and compare it to other texts.

The New Testament is primarily written for the Gentiles and Paul was the one who preached to them the most. As for credibility of Paul, I think an indepth study of the Holy Spirit and how he works goes a long way in helping to understand this. He was a prime example of how the Holy Spirit could take a man (Paul) who used to persecute Christians and turn them totally around in order to become one as well as become a teacher. This is how the Holy Spirit works in a lot of people today.

What is the definition of "the law" that Paul is talking about in Romans 2:12?

I think the definition of "the law" in these particular verses is referring to the Mosaic Law, which was to be kept by the Jews only. The law that gentiles will be judged by is what's written in the 10 Commandments and has been placed by design in everyone's heart in order to differentiate between good and evil.

As for your question about Jesus being the only way to the Father, Jesus is the only way to the Father because of his death on the cross. If Jesus, as the only begotten son of the Father, had not done this, none of us would be going to live with the Father. We'd all be back living in Paradise or Hades, where the Father doesn't reside (and were the places that souls used to go to before Jesus came along). Does that make sense?

To put it another way, regardless of whether or not people believe in Jesus, no one would be entering into heaven if he hadn't cleansed the temple of Heaven with his blood in order to allow them to enter. So, Jesus was indeed the only one who paved the way in order for ANY of us to enter the "kingdom of God", now how much of an understanding of that is required in order to enter remains to be seen and I have a feeling that much is going to be revealed to everyone (those dead and alive) before Judgement Day actually roles around.

There is also the problem of the questions no one can answer:

What is love?
Why are we here?
Is it possible to know everything?
What is beyond the universe?
Why are there so many cats on the internet?

You can ask Christians or Muslims or Jews or Zoroastrians all day long why they do what they do, but they still could not explain why there are so many cats on the internet. And neither could you.

reply to post by alumnathe

There is also the problem of the questions no one can answer:

What is love?
Why are we here?
Is it possible to know everything?
What is beyond the universe?
Why are there so many cats on the internet?

Ah. Well, see, there's an author whose work I truly enjoy, and he says this:

“It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question and he'll look for his own answers.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Questions without answers are only a problem if you're unwilling to work for what they have to teach you. If you're only going to take answers from other people, and never have your own understanding of the what's and why's and how's, then you may as well stop thinking for yourself. Oh wait, that's already happening!

It's not really a laughing matter, but it IS cynically amusing.

reply to post by iwilliam

Get a version of the bible with modern wording... NIV or something like that... something easy to read.. and read a couple of the Gospels. Just the ones that deal with the life of Christ. If you take him literally, Christ is telling you that we are ALL sons of god, and that we ALL have the power to work the same miracles that he performed if you truly have the faith that you can do it. This is not a message of holding back at all. Most mainstream Science tells us we CAN'T do these things. I ask you which one sounds more limiting?

The last time I attended a church service, was last Christmas. And I can tell you that isn't what I heard in that church that day. If your interpretation is the only true interpretation, then why do so many disagree?

Why are there so many interpretations of one absolute truth? That belies the absolute nature of it. And you wonder why I view it with skepticism and caution? Because I know how much man fears death, and what he is willing to do to ensure that he always had the upper hand. Something so powerful as the Bible - have you ever seen "The Book of Eli"? That's exactly the kind of savagery I'm talking about. Taking innocent lives without scruple or discrimination, just to obtain the power of religion. Just to have the voice of a god to do your bidding, to secure your control, because you're afraid of the empire you've created using greed to manipulate those around you. And once greed becomes stronger than loyalty, the next weapon is fear. Fear of being judged by a being whom you have no sway over, a being who can determine your fate in a single breath.

And it disgusts me. It disgusts me that in the end, religion has gone from being brand of jerryrigged science, to being a tool of manipulation, to being the Morphine and Kodine that we rely on to numb the burn of our own nature. We are burning ourselves and the world around us, and we use religion to hide from the truth that stares us in the face every day, its eyes gaunt and accusing, leveling the finger of responsibility at the race that fathered it - the race that stands as the sole guardian of this earth, and yet acts like the destined destroyer.

Religion is our pillow, politics our chains, and money is our pleasure. We are bound, drugged, and preoccupied while the palace we have built crumbles around our ears, the cries of the weak and helpless falling on deaf ears. And this is the philosophy I must adhere to? This is the religion I must follow with every breath, or I risk eternal damnation? You have to be ****ing kidding me.

And unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here (which I don't think I am) I take this as proof that you've never even read the book you've spent so much time ridiculing-- instead relying on the interpretations of others to ridicule, regarding the book you've never read, but basing your opinion of the entire religion itself on the opinions of isolated members. Lumping together the catholics with the protestants with the adventists with the essenes with the baptists, all under one convenient and easily hate-able label you can point at. Almost like darwin classifying all living creatures as "stuff." That's some highly scientific method you've got there.

Listen to me well. I don't intend to waste my words on those who only read with the intent to refute. Read this, and understand it. Take the blinders off and see the world for what it is. So far, I haven't see a damn bit of good come from Christianity, Catholicism, Baptism, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelist, Mormon, or any other. For all the good they claim to stand for - THE WORLD IS STILL BURNING. And how long have they existed for? Long enough to have at least extinguished the flames, if not be rebuilding?

And yet the world continues to burn. That's the reason for my opinions. The churches who promise the most salvation, who seek the most good, have failed the most...because the world is still burning. Either take a dump like the world's never seen, or get off the mother effing pot.

Oh, and one more thing. You accuse me of not reading the Bible because I said the most pivotal character doesn't have a gospel of his own in there. Are you stupid? Please point out to me where the Gospel of Jesus is in the Bible. And if you can't, then you should drop your attitude, because I don't appreciate anyone talking down to me when they are talking out their posterior.

You're right, you "don't think".

Hey AfterInfinity,

Spoken like a true Christian. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Now all you have to do is glean what you've said from scripture - because it is there. And when you discover what you've said in scripture, you will have discovered that you hold holy secrets by which the world will be simultaneously destroyed and rebuilt.

You say I don't think? You seem to be pretty intent on proving your inability to comprehend that which you read.

Originally posted by AfterInfinityOh, and one more thing. You accuse me of not reading the Bible because I said the most pivotal character doesn't have a gospel of his own in there. Are you stupid? Please point out to me where the Gospel of Jesus is in the Bible. And if you can't, then you should drop your attitude, because I don't appreciate anyone talking down to me when they are talking out their posterior.

You don't appreciate being talked down to? Perhaps you shouldn't do it to others, then. You think it's okay for you to do, but you cry foul when you think someone's doing it to you? That's some real strength of character, there. More hypocritical than most of the Christians you deride.

You said nothing about Christ having his own gospel. What you actually said, and I quote:

I find it a little strange that the most pivotal character in the Bible isn't allowed to speak for himself, except through other mens' words. Seems a little suspicious to me.

Since you're referring to Christ "speaking for himself" then he certainly does that, as he is quoted directly in the gospels, numerous times. As far as him having "his own gospel," the closest we have is the Gospel of Thomas which, despite its being non-canonical, many scholars believe it may have been the "key" gospel from which the others were derived-- an early example of Christ's own words. It has been speculated that a gospel written by christ himself exists, but it has never been found. Regardless, a quote from someone IS a representation of their own words.

I also love how you dodge the reading-the-bible question by mentioning how you've been in church in recent years. I tell you again that listening to some other person's interpretation of the bible is not the same as reading it yourself, and it really seems like you're intent to bash a book you haven't read, and a religion you obviously know little about, with some stereotypical idea in your head of what "Christianity" is.

The last time I attended a church service, was last Christmas. And I can tell you that isn't what I heard in that church that day. If your interpretation is the only true interpretation, then why do so many disagree?

I told you that not all Christian sects agree. Are you paying attention? Or maybe you're just waiting to talk? I never claimed my interpretations were 100% truth and that I have the only way. Not even close. It's just what I happen to believe. And you're right that most "Christians" would not agree with many of my viewpoints. That's fine with me. Now pay careful attention, as I'm going to break this down for you really clear and simple, one more time:

You and I are not quite as "opposed" in our viewpoints as you seem to think. I agree that religion has been a force for destruction in this world. A terrible one. I hate some of the awful things done in the name of god, or in the name of believing that YOUR WAY is the only way to the truth. I hate that crap as much as you do. I dislike fundamental Christians as much as fundamental Muslims. Extremists. People who try to force their views on others. People who ignore and/or disrespect science. I have no room for that crap in my life, and I wish it were wiped off the face of the planet. No respect for those who snidely judge others as though they were somehow better (and this goes for smug atheists too) But the way to do that is through reason and compassion, not insults.

If you're going to attempt to remove this kind of religion with aggression, it has to be absolute aggression, where you're destroying any traces of it. Because your angry attitude will only make the "true believers" more defensive. If you instead used calm logic, your message might even get through to some of them. I don't think your real purpose is to help free people as you claim. At least your actions do not back this up. It seems to me you're just angry and want to call people stupid, and then become offended when someone calls you out...as though you were the one minding your business when you were insulted. Unbelievable.

I'll end by saying that if you haven't seen any good come from Christianity, as a whole or in its individual sects, you simply haven't been looking hard enough. I agree that lots of horrible stuff has been done, and there is no justifying that. But a lot of good has been done too. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean that it does not exist. Do understand that when you start out from a highly biased standpoint, you will only ever find what you set out looking for.

I also love how you dodge the reading-the-bible question by mentioning how you've been in church in recent years. I tell you again that listening to some other person's interpretation of the bible is not the same as reading it yourself, and it really seems like you're intent to bash a book you haven't read, and a religion you obviously know little about, with some stereotypical idea in your head of what "Christianity" is.

He may have read the bible.... but what it stands for isn't always obvious at first sight.

He is concerned by what he sees the popular behaviour promoting as biblically supported behaviour - he has an excuse for being cynical. (or stereotypical).

But you and I are not here to fight him. Rather we are here to help him see. Because what is written in the bible is so vast and potentially all over the place for those who only cursorily read it and even many of the priests that preach it.

Coming to the right conclusions is a work of art not necessarily driven entirely by biblical passages. It is an understanding of leadership from a practical perspective and being able to apply it to what is said in the annals of scripture that is being read. His concerns for the world show that he is on the right track.

Not everything in every book read is going to be understood. The more complex the topic being discussed, the more possibility for confusion. This is why he speaks to us as friends/enemies.

To practice what we preach - this is extra-ordinarily difficult. The world is in considerable confusion right now. There isn't any evidence that practical application of the biblical principles is a win-win scenario right now. Find the nation that is at peace that actually practices this.

It is to this end that he is being critical. It is the answers that many who are in need are searching for. But someone has to help them make sense of it all.

The bible is a book of recorded wisdom of the past kings of one territory. It is still somewhat applicable in the modern day and age. The tenets of good leadership hasn't disappeared and understanding the bible and simultaneously translating it in to a course of action that people can live by (in a way that is acceptable to all who live by it), is a very difficult task. It takes people with experience and interest in leading such things to muddle through all the muddy waters and make it clear for others to understand.

It may prove someday to be true. The hope that is presented in scripture is that there will be a day of reckoning when human beings *will* put true work back in its place in making a place like heaven - and the people who lead at that point in time will be called "God" - because if you can't trust or figure out how to distinguish those who are trustworthy co-workers and leaders, then you cannot have a kingdom of peace and prosperity.

reply to post by sensibleSenseless

Hey AfterInfinity,

Spoken like a true Christian. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Now all you have to do is glean what you've said from scripture - because it is there. And when you discover what you've said in scripture, you will have discovered that you hold holy secrets by which the world will be simultaneously destroyed and rebuilt.

I admire Jesus the man, not Jesus the lord. There is something to be said for a mortal being who comes to understand the things of which he spoke. It's a lot easier to be careless with life and materials and philosophies when you plan on living forever. A lot of the things he said, I can honestly say I've to grips with - all without studying a whole lot of his work. Maybe I'm Jesus reincarnated...who knows?

I don't worship any person or idea. Worship is degrading, demeaning, counterproductive, and ultimately futile. Worship, by its very definition, means that you will never rise. You will never seek to be that which you admire because you believe that you can't. You may seek to emulate it, but you will never equal it. This is why I prefer Buddhism (I am not Buddhist) because you don't worship, so much as emulate.

Maybe I'm overcomplicating it. I'll try to simplify. If you worship something, you will always be just as focused on what's different as on what's the same. Focusing on what's different can create a rift, a rift you find yourself unable to close because in your mind, what's on the other side is too awesome. You're unworthy. You're unwhole. You're impure. The Bible even says that nothing you ever do will ever be good enough. In my mind, something like that isn't healthy. At some point, you must learn to be satisfied, or you'll never find the courage to continue.

How would anyone climb Mt. Everest if, with each step they took, they told themselves, "You're not worthy of reaching the top. You're not strong enough to surpass this hurdle. You were born flawed, and these flaws will forever keep you from being the best."

So one of my many points against Christianity is that worship is an exercise of futility. That's why I encourage worship of the self. If you worship yourself, you empower yourself. Empowerment leads to enablement, and enablement leads to fulfillment. Now, some will obviously claim that self-worship is nothing more than narcissism. That can be true, but not always. Self-worship combined with compassion leads us to see ourselves in others, prompting us to help our brothers and sisters whenever we're able, because it's healthy for everyone involved.

This is why Jesus says, "Love your brothers as you love yourself." If we all fought to help one another as much as we fight to help ourselves, how do you think the world would look?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Perhaps you provide some of the answers you seek.

Emulate because of admiration, rather than worship. Emulation: the process of becoming like someone or something else. Copying is the best form of flattery. Flattery will get you nowhere.

"I tell you, you are all Gods." - words from Jesus - he quoted psalms.

Do I worship Christ? Are you him? Are all those who emulate, considered Christ?

Maybe I do worship Christ... Now therein lies salvation.