White Shrine and Amaranth

being trained to lie and decieve is not healthy

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
being trained to lie and decieve is not healthy

Hey, Necros, Twitchy, Gadfly, Morgan... ya listenin'?

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
being trained to lie and decieve is not healthy

Hey, Necros, Twitchy, Gadfly, Morgan... ya listenin'?

i was talking about freemasonry, "being trained to lie and decieve is not healthy"


[edit on 9-11-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

On what concrete proof do you base your argument that Masons are "trained to lie and deceive"?

At exactly what point in Masonry does this "training" occur? Have you witnessed this "training" in Lodge? When exactly was it? What is the name of your Lodge?

Are you a Mason? Have you experienced Msonic ritual firsthand? Or do you just like getting shot down for making silly, unfounded claims?

no need to prove to make the point, ltd602 would you agree lieing and deciept is not healthy, for anyone?.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
no need to prove to make the point, ltd602 would you agree lieing and deciept is not healthy, for anyone?.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

That's obvious. But why do you connect it with Masonry?

one example is masonry uses 'any' means to protect its secrets, this is understandable, but in using deceptive etc means you will be left with moral problems.

nearly everybody lies/decieves etc for one reason or another, and maybe there are big lies and little lies, but still this could result in moral problems, for the individual and many alike?.

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
one example is masonry uses 'any' means to protect its secrets, this is understandable, but in using deceptive etc means you will be left with moral problems.

nearly everybody lies/decieves etc for one reason or another, and maybe there are big lies and little lies, but still this could result in moral problems, for the individual and many alike?.

"Masonry will do anything to protect its secrets? Such as? have you witnessed any of this? What are your sources for this? Have you witnessed such a thing in Lodge?

The rest of your post consists of abstract generalizations.

If you are not a Mason, you do not, by default, have any basis to make such an argument. Although you are of course, perfectly free to make it.

ltd602, i am not a mason, ltd602 says (quote) "The rest of your post consists of abstract generalizations."

why is truth you agree on a abstract generalization?.

Look up Captain Morgan, the book he published then what happened to him. Speculation from outside is harmless, exposure from within is often fatal. You don't keep secrets for thousands of years by being nice guys.
His death launched the first and indeed only real anti-freemasonry movement in the US. The most recent anti-freemasonry movement was Germany circa late 1930's.
"It's a sin that somehow, light is changing to shadow, and casting a shroud over all we have known."
-Pink Floyd

As for Morgan, what happened to him is all speculation...

Of course, anti-masons assume that he was done in, and the dastardly deed was done by Masons. The bottom line is that we will never know. If Morgan was killed and if it was done by Masons (two very big IFs), then those men should have been punnished. Masons are not above the law. No good Mason would break the law for another.

For more information look here:
www.masonicinfo.com...

and here:

www.vtfreemasons.org...

Quite frankly,... having looked into it, I don't see enough in Morgan's character to believe that he didn't just leave town, including his wife, less than half his age. He was basically reputed to be a scumbag, even according to anti-masons.

i find masonry a intresting subject and can appreciate why people join masonry, if i complain because i think that there are potential grey areas involved in masonry, it can be argued either way, but is also probably good to be taken on board/reflected on as well?.

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
i find masonry a intresting subject and can appreciate why people join masonry, if i complain because i think that there are potential grey areas involved in masonry, it can be argued either way, but is also probably good to be taken on board/reflected on as well?.

A reasonable attitude. Can't argue with that. Thatt's why we're here . . . to discuss those grey areas, and whatever else, really.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance
one example is masonry uses 'any' means to protect its secrets, this is understandable, but in using deceptive etc means you will be left with moral problems.

Really? ANY means? Would you like to list those? What masonry does to protect its secrets is not talk about them. What are YOU thinking of?

Nearly everybody lies/decieves etc for one reason or another, and maybe there are big lies and little lies, but still this could result in moral problems, for the individual and many alike?.

Of course, hence the statement that we are striving to be better men. No one has ever claimed masons are perfect. We try to follow masonic teachings, we strive to be honorable men, upright in our several stations before man and g-d... what you state is precisely why masons are enjoined to truth, justice, fortitude, prudence, temperence, and to circumscribe our passions and desires...

Mystic radiancer:

for ANYONE, including the few masonic critics, yes, it is wrong to lie. But since masons are enjoined against lying, and are NOT trained to lie, I do not see you have a point.

Moreover, NOT answering certain questions is NOT lying. My obligation requires that there are certain things I keep private, and I will not divulge them... but again, not answering is not the same as lying. to lie takes a positive act, that is, knowledgeof the truth and a deliberate falsification.

the whole Morgan thing is nonsense,a dn the "antimasonic" party died after just four years...

[edit on 11/12/04 by theron dunn]

Originally posted by theron dunn
Mystic radiancer:

for ANYONE, including the few masonic critics, yes, it is wrong to lie. But since masons are enjoined against lying, and are NOT trained to lie, I do not see you have a point.

Moreover, NOT answering certain questions is NOT lying. My obligation requires that there are certain things I keep private, and I will not divulge them... but again, not answering is not the same as lying. to lie takes a positive act, that is, knowledgeof the truth and a deliberate falsification.

the whole Morgan thing is nonsense,a dn the "antimasonic" party died after just four years...

[edit on 11/12/04 by theron dunn]

This is a clear and powerful truth, one that is foremost in the minds of all Masons.
-----------------------------------------

Originally posted by theron dunn

Of course, hence the statement that we are striving to be better men. No one has ever claimed masons are perfect. We try to follow masonic teachings, we strive to be honorable men, upright in our several stations before man and g-d... what you state is precisely why masons are enjoined to truth, justice, fortitude, prudence, temperence, and to circumscribe our passions and desires...

i think they are some good codes to live by.

[Is it Hindustan (INDIA) turning into Pakistan because all the UPA GOVERNMENT giving support to Muslim in the name of minority they don’t obey our law of our country they got their on laws does it make any sense for it they marry as much as possible
1 to 10 or give berth to children from 5 to 10 but they cant be stopped ?
In history they destroyed lacks of old temples in all over the India mainly the temple in kashi varanasi , somnath in Gujarat, present Tajmahal is shiv temple at Agra the whole Hindu culture has be changed due to their fanatic ideology they start their brain wash there new young one Childs and preach against all other religions in their mdarsa and Musjit that’s Y most of the Muslim turning into terrorist activities across the country ?

we just want A land to shrine Amaranth yatra for the stay of the pilgrimage purpose y the Muslim don’t agree for it we should not leave them so easily ?
always Hindus were given the bad name we ask from our country not from
Pakistan or Arab y these Muslims get aggravated so quickly ?

They should be throne out of our country that is the only solution

Like so many "Loving" Christ-Inanes, this and others of the same ilk know nothing about their subject. What they do "know" comes from a hating priest or minister. They spread hatred instead of love. But, their hatred makes the "enemy" stronger.

About three hundred years ago in Sweden, a little girl just six years old named Christina became the ruler of that country. As she grew to womanhood, she was very fond of things beautiful, cultured and of social importance. During her reign as Queen, she created the Order of the Amarantha for the ladies and knights of her royal court, building it around the character of Lady Amarantha, who was portrayed as being a beautiful, virtuous and talented Lady of the Court. Queen Christina herself acted the part of Lady Amarantha; and the name of the Order was probably chosen because of the beautiful never-fading red Amaranthus flowers growing in profusion in Spain and Portugal. The Order was perpetuated and exists in the Royal Court of Sweden now. As originally created by Queen Christina, the Royal and Social Order of the Amarantha had no more connection with Masonry than did the beautiful Catholic Cathedrals constructed by masons and by builders of old, before the structure of Masonry was developed and embodied in our present day Fraternity. So let's leave the Swedish Order of the Amarantha and return to more modern days.

In the middle of the 19th century, a number of societies were started in America, in which females could become members. The two that we are most concerned with are the "Order of the Eastern Star" and the "Order of the Amaranth".

From the report of Honored Lady Grace Scheninger, a member of the present Order who visited Sweden in recent years, we find the following interesting information: "One account was given by an Englishman, himself a member of the order and a long time guest of Christina's Court, seems the most plausible and in keeping with the lessons handed down to us in our present Order. He says: "The person kneeling down before the Queen held up his hands between the Queen's hands: she declared his duty in that order, to maintain and defend virtue and the honor of virtuous ladies, to endeavor to correct vice, to perform honorable actions, to keep his faith inviolable, in all matters relating to honor and virtuous performances; which the Court promised to observe. The Queen put upon his left shoulder and tied under his right arm a scarf of crimson taffeta, with a broad silver fringe; and the jewel of the order hung in the scarf, it was about the compass of half a crown; it was made of gold, a round wreath wrought and enameled like a laurel, and in the midst thereof two great AA reversed, set thick with diamonds, the two AA for the first and last letters of Amaranta, and about the wreath was written 'dolce nella memoria', 'Sweet is the memory', that is of a certain noble and famous great lady named Amaranta, who was an eminent pattern and example of the highest honor and virtue, in memory of whom this Court was instituted."

It again appears in France when the Lodges of Adoption were organized about 1730, each of which was under the control of a Masonic Lodge until June 10, 1974, when the Grand Orient of France by an Edict assumed control of all Lodges of Adoption.

In 1860, Brother James B. Taylor from Newark, NJ, attempted to compose the material to start a New "Society". He learned that in 1653, Queen Christina of Sweden,, had combined a group of "Sir Knights" and "Ladies" together to have "gala" parties. She called this group the "Order of the Amaranta".

Brother Taylor was so impressed with what he had read that he copied many of the symbols and much of the phraseology used therein. He even copied the name, the "Order of the Amaranth".

Brother Robert Macoy, who was in control of the "Order of the Eastern Star" around 1870, decided that it might be advisable to add two or more degrees to it. Then, in 1873, he formed the "Rite of Adoption", with the "Order of the Eastern Star" as the first, or initiatory degree, and "The Queen of the South" as the second degree and the "Order of the Amaranth" as the third, or highest degree. His plan was to have these degrees given separately but under the control of one body.

Both Eastern Star "Chapters" and Amaranth "Courts" were included in the Adoptive Rite Ritual. The Order of the Amaranth was officially organized June 14, 1873 in New York City as part of the Rite of Adoption. Robert Macoy was the first Supreme Royal Patron and Rob Morris was the first Supreme Recorder of the Order under Robert Macoy. In the Rite of Adoption Ritual it was said: "This Organization shall be known as the 'Rite of Adoption of the World' and shall consist of the degrees of the Eastern Star, the Queen of the South and the Amaranth."

Brother Robert Macoy obtained the material that Brother Taylor had written about the Amaranth, and revised and perfected it into "ritualistic" form so that it could be used as the ritual for the third degree. From 1873 until 1921, all members of the Amaranth were required to join the "Order of the Eastern Star" first, and to maintain this membership to be able to stay members of the Amaranth.

In 1921, by mutual agreement, this requirement ceased. They are now completely separate organizations.

In 1895, Robert Macoy died. New officers arranged for the Supreme Council of the "Order of the Amaranth" to hold its first meeting of its officers and members in 1897. Since then, and "Annual Meeting" has been held each year. Under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Council we have forty-three Grand Courts (each is Statewide), located in the United States, Canada, Australia, England, Phillippines and Scotland. Also, Subordinate Courts (local) in Hawaii, New Zealand and Ireland (there are a few individual states in the U.S. that do not have Grand Courts).

The "Order of the Amaranth" means many things to many people. To its early members it meant the opportunity to build upon the strong foundation of TRUTH, FAITH, WISDOM and CHARITY. A fraternal order having for its purpose, service to humanity, set to the music of fraternal love. To its present members, the "Order of the Amaranth" means a challenge to build higher and stronger upon these foundations of Fraternal Love and Service. It means the Hand of Fraternal Friendship to those in distress. It means Thinking and Remembering about its members in their hours of sorrow and sickness.

Most of all, it means the opportunity to serve its Fellowmen, to enjoy the close fraternal ties of mutual respect and understanding to enrich our lives with friendship worth far more than gold or silver.

S.K. Roland E. Randall, P.G.R.P.
Maryland