A voice from above?

It is believed by most of the Christian faith that Jesus was "God in the flesh" as John stated in the first chapter of his gospel.

So i have a question for those of the christian faith to ponder...

There is three instances in the gospels where a "voice" from above was documented... The first instance comes in Matthew 3 at the first meeting of John the baptist, and Jesus...

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

.............

This verse can also be cross referenced in Mark 1...

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

........

And in Luke 3

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
.............

The second instance comes later in the book of Matthew in chapter 17 during the "transfiguation"... witnessed by Peter, James, and John his brother...


4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

...................

Which can also be cross referenced with in Mark 9

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

.............

And in Luke 9

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

..............

Clearly these books all agree with each other...

Now the final instance is found in the book of John...

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

...........................

So here is the question....

IF Jesus was God in the flesh.... And God was apparently here on earth as the christian Faith dictates....

Who was this voice from above that was documented in all these cases?



Please discuss rationally everyone...

I look forward to your replies

Dear Akragon,

Good to see you again. I just wish my brain was up to the challenge of dealing with your subtleties tonight.

Answer 1.) Trinitarianism

Answer 2.) Ventriloquism

With respect,
Charles1952

Most Christians believe that there are three parts of God Jesus, Father, and (holy) Spirit. So maybe it was the Father aspect that as the voice and The Dove as Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by arpgme
Most Christians believe that there are three parts of God Jesus, Father, and (holy) Spirit. So maybe it was the Father aspect that as the voice and The Dove as Holy Spirit.

Nice answer. Should end the tread, but I suspect it won't.

reply to post by Akragon


God is like the molecular make up of the baptismal water of which you speak.

One molecule of fresh water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom.

Three atoms - when joined in a particular way, make water.

Adding, taking away or changing the specific "make-up" of these three and the result is NO water.

These three and these three only make one.

The voice was from one of these three when it manifested itself in our reality as "Jesus"

This is the nature of the trinity, imo.

Originally posted by arpgme
Most Christians believe that there are three parts of God Jesus, Father, and (holy) Spirit. So maybe it was the Father aspect that as the voice and The Dove as Holy Spirit.

Hello

It is the Catholic "Holy Trinity" that has the three entities that are as one. In Christianity Jesus and his dad Jehovah are the only two.

Originally posted by Johnny76

Originally posted by arpgme
Most Christians believe that there are three parts of God Jesus, Father, and (holy) Spirit. So maybe it was the Father aspect that as the voice and The Dove as Holy Spirit.

Hello

It is the Catholic "Holy Trinity" that has the three entities that are as one. In Christianity Jesus and his dad Jehovah are the only two.

Now that is the kind of answer i was looking for... i expected the trinity answer...

But...

This is new to me... would you mind explaining your position on this issue a little further?

What happened to "the holy Ghost" as the third aspect of God?

reply to post by Akragon


Forgive my reply as you asked for the christian faith and I am not...at least I am no longer of that faith.

None the less I am a seeker of truth. Nine years ago I was in the study of the errors within myself and how I had let religion, tradition, education and government frame who I am. I began questioning those programed beliefs and looking within myself to deprogram from the above.

One night I was in the twilight between wake and sleep and heard a voice (to be explained). The voice was audible, outside of me and said 'my name, STAY TUNED'. I sat up immediately and thought it was the sound of a thousand rushing waters. Then thought no, it was more like the sound of every voice in the Universe in perfect unison. I remember like yesterday; it was soooo profound.

So I say to you and everyone, God (the Universal Consciousness) does not just speak to Christians. It speaks to all who are willing to listen._God speaks to all who have found a way to listen that works for them. It can be different for everyone. God speaks to me audibly (the one time), through everyday occurrences and through dreams, but not until you show your willingness to listen and understand. Your first thought about the occurrence is the thought intended. It takes practice and a willingness to accept the instinct/intuition that follows immediately.

reply to post by liveandlearn


No need to appoligise my friend, all are welcome in my threads as long as its kept civil...

Thank you for your testamony... but if it was directed at me, worry not...

I found God long ago, which is why i have a tendency to direct my quesitions towards those of the Christian Faith...

I found God through their book, but the God i found was not the Christian God, nor is he the God of the OT...

Feel free to browse my threads if you want to hear more...

Unfortunatly your reply was rather off topic... But i appreciate it none the less

reply to post by Akragon


It seems this must be the question of the day as I have posted it over and over.

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The Son was born of God. God made the Son firstborn over all Creation. God is Eternal and unmoved. The Son is raised by God and is shown to be this in all parables concerning the Son. In all points, the Son is as we have been as humans. Why is this and how could this be? See this Adam Kadmon.

Step back and view the sacrifice of the Cross from the very beginning. The Son is the FIRST image of the invisible God. Genesis 1 is the Elohim making the image and Paradise. Genesis 2 is the second creation of the material world by the LORD. The Lord is the Son and all flesh comes from Adam to the last Adam (Jesus). He is the seal that stamps the clay and holds all things together (WORD / WAVE). God is raising His Son and the Son is Shepherding us. The Son is the image of God that made the Cosmos. The cross and sacrifice was the first soul of God broken into multiplicity from unity with the Father. Adam was the Father of mankind. We are the Father of our household. Are you seeing it yet?

As above so below.

Involution and Evolution

"The reason for involution is Delight - the Delight of Being (the Spirit or Absolute) moving to Delight of Becoming (temporal existence, the cosmos). Being throws itself forward into a multiplicity of forms, becoming lost in the inconscience of matter,[3] and then through evolution it partakes in the Delight of rediscovering the Spirit which had been hidden in the interim.

Evolution is thus the movement forward by which the created universe evolves from its initial state of inconscience (i.e. as matter), evolves animated life forms and mental beings (i.e. humans), and continues to evolve spiritual properties, and in that process rediscovers its Source. Such an Evolution of animated forms is only possible because at each stage of development, the developing entity contains within itself the conception of what it may become. Thus, the evolution of animated life out of matter supposes a previous involution of that animated capacity. This is akin to a seed that already has the essence of the tree that will emerge from it.

Each plane emerges from an earlier plane through the evolutionary process, which takes place in chronological time. But in a parallel construction, each of these new planes can be understood as being a descendent of its corresponding higher order plane from the Infinite. Thus, when mentality emerged in the universe, the universal plane of Mind was implanted to a degree in those beings harboring that mentality.

The evolution is the development of all entities in the cosmos, including humans, in order to attain their fulfillment, including the discovery of spiritual Delight, which was, and always is, the experience of the Source Creator. The evolution is the progressive development from the original inconscience of matter into life (movement, sensation, desire, etc. and living physical beings), and from thence to mind (in conscious animals and most especially humans - the self-conscious thinking animal), and from thence to spiritualized mind, culminating in the The Supermind or Truth Consciousness (as supramental individuals, and finally the supramental, i.e. a divine life on earth.)" WIKI

How many times does God expand from unity to multiplicity? Do you know what the 17th triangular number is and why it is the square root of 2? The ratio of 1:1.415 is the reason for expansion and contraction and why we are at the singularity at this moment. The Vesica Piscis is the key to unity and multiplicity and is the measure of the fish according to Pythagoras. Are you on the right side of the boat?

reply to post by Akragon

This is akin to a seed that already has the essence of the tree that will emerge from it.

Is the acorn the enfolded oak tree or is the oak tree the DNA in the acorn? YES!

It's John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I always love your replies and your theads my friend... I'd give you 20 stars if i could...

Perhaps i can point out a flaw though...

Truely, John said..."Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Can you point out a passage where Jesus confirms this?

Akragon, you do love to stir the pot a little, don't you?

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus was God, it would be no great feat for him to speak from the sky while also being in a human form. Omnipotence tends to allow one to do some nifty things.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I always love your replies and your theads my friend... I'd give you 20 stars if i could...

Perhaps i can point out a flaw though...

Truely, John said..."Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Can you point out a passage where Jesus confirms this?

John 8:56-58

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I always love your replies and your theads my friend... I'd give you 20 stars if i could...

Perhaps i can point out a flaw though...

Truely, John said..."Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Can you point out a passage where Jesus confirms this?

I go one better.

Isaiah 9

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 10

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

I and the father are one. Did you catch that? Yet, the Father is greater than Jesus. Did you also catch that? No paradox here.

Hydrogen is one proton and one electron. The starting point of all physics and hydrogenesis start without God in the middle. Once engaged to reality, hydrogen bonds then have the neutral in the middle and the proton is with the neutron in the middle. The electron is roaming free. If you know the Trinity, which is the electron? Spirit has descended into matter, yet the positive and neutral are in the middle. Unity happens when positive and negative are back in balance.

God cannot be either positive or negative if he is at rest and eternal. The process happens when the image is moving. An image is not the actual. When you look in a mirror, which is greater? You or the image? Which is you? Which is the rendering of you and only a representation of you?

Light is the particle and wave of creative word. Consciousness is the spirit that moves.

Does the image in the mirror begin to describe you?

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Originally posted by Klassified

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I always love your replies and your theads my friend... I'd give you 20 stars if i could...

Perhaps i can point out a flaw though...

Truely, John said..."Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Can you point out a passage where Jesus confirms this?

John 8:56-58

Good call: 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Also, Isaiah 53

53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Originally posted by Sublimecraft
reply to post by Akragon

 

God is like the molecular make up of the baptismal water of which you speak.

One molecule of fresh water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom.

Three atoms - when joined in a particular way, make water.

Adding, taking away or changing the specific "make-up" of these three and the result is NO water.

These three and these three only make one.

The voice was from one of these three when it manifested itself in our reality as "Jesus"

This is the nature of the trinity, imo.

I just caught your post. Interesting as I just posted nearly the same type of perspective about hydrogen. I'll need to ponder what you said.

Consider this. Carbon has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. Nitrogen has 777 and Oxygen has 888. Find the significance of the Carbon as the mark of mankind (Rev. 13) and the breath of God in relation to the meaning behind the numbers 777 and 888.

reply to post by Akragon


Thank you for your tolerance Akragon.

I found God through their book, but the God i found was not the Christian God, nor is he the God of the OT...

Sounds like the God I found.

I have decided not knowing if true or not) that your spirit knows to whom you address your prayers, requests and questions, regardless of religion.

Wish I could speak more directly to your op.

Originally posted by Klassified
Akragon, you do love to stir the pot a little, don't you?

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus was God, it would be no great feat for him to speak from the sky while also being in a human form. Omnipotence tends to allow one to do some nifty things.

The pot needs stiring once in a while my friend... or it tends to burn the contents at the bottem...

No?

hypothetically speaking... IF Jesus was God, what would be the need to ask "his Father" to "take this cup from me"?

Why would he fear what was to come if it was preventable by his own "omnipotence"?

John 8:56-58

That passage doesn't say he is responsible for all of creation... Only that he is One with his Father.... meaning the same essence of his Father.

This is the same idea as when i ask for the passage where he states "i am God"...

Unfortunatly he confirms neither in what he said in the gospels... Although i would like to believe God came in the flesh as Christians do... but i see no evidence from what HE actually said

reply to post by Akragon

From the Christian perspective... for our benefit, as an example for us pertaining to following the will of God by choice.

From my perspective... well, you know what I think.

The pot needs stiring once in a while my friend... or it tends to burn the contents at the bottem... No?

Now that's funny. Yet true.

This is the same idea as when i ask for the passage where he states "i am God"... Unfortunatly he confirms neither in what he said in the gospels... Although i would like to believe God came in the flesh as Christians do... but i see no evidence from what HE actually said

I might be inclined to agree with you, but Christians see I AM in that verse as an acknowledgement of his deity.