Europe's troubles are due to their being a geriatric continent.

Europe's troubles are not due to any one thing. It's far too complex to narrow it down to one single source. The US led economic failure has a lot to do with it as does the nonsense known as the Euro. And while it might seem a simple solution to increase the population so they can work for almost nothing for the megacorporations, so people can buy more stuff and get further into debt, has already been seen to be the problem rather than a solution. Society is changing, what it is changing into I couldn't even guess. But I think much of the apathy that is now so apparent is a combination of realising the futility of it all and watching the world's elite get away with blind robbery, murder, corruption and deceit, while those who voice their opposition to it all are getting arrested and charged. People are just fed up with it. And it isn't just in Europe, though they are the current poster boy for it.

Europe's problem:

- It all started when Europe had been living on dividends from their Colonial pasts, and therefore the European style was always more expensive than what Europe itself was producing. But when there were dividends coming (stolen money) in from the colonies, it was still fine and well.

- Then when the dividends are drying up (moved to USA - The world police gets the tributes), you see that the Europeans were already too much addicted to the living style and had been setting up a Social system too expensive for the current income. But not willing to believe it they continued this social system to the next level.

- When this living costs could not be paid by the dividends of the colonial pasts anymore, they started borrowing money from the future to upkeep the living standards they were so used too.

- Besides borrowing money from the future. And yes, even imported "slaves" to do the jobs they never wanted to do themselves at a cheaper costs if they did it themselves.

- Fast forward to 2012, almost 2013, and you see a aged continent with nobody willing to give up their addiction to a "social security lifestyle" and a huge portion of the population of a totally different culture, beliefs and mentality. Tensions growing, soon you will see a total collapse of the whole system when there is no where to borrow money anymore.

i could remember when i was in secondary school arguing with my Economy class teacher about Keynes and borrowing money:

- but but how can the government has a national debt of the country's whole your income (GPD)?

- son, that's why the EU will be very strict and require everyone to be as tight to only 60% Debt of the GDP!

- but but but, why even allowing to have debt? and 60% means if we do not eat for 8 months, then all our debts will be paid off, if we can upkeep the GDP level with empty stomachs..... and almost everyone is over 70% to even 100%! why even allowing to have debt?

- no, you get it wrong, our economy is always growing, then the debt ratio will become smaller!

- but but but, why the economy will always grow? what if it does not? what then?

- it will grow, not fast but stable 1-3% is very good

- but but but

- no more but, our system works!

reply to post by manykapao


You miss one small point, industry has changed dramatically over the last 30 years, especially in heavy industry. What used to take thousands of workers on a assembly line is largely done by robots managed by workers. You just don't need more people, you actually need less, and you'll probably find that in Europe there are actually too many people for those jobs. Formal schooling doesn't always address that, (COT's being as near as you'll get) so often they educate people steps behind what is happening in the real world. Having said that Europe is still a powerhouse economy, although individual countries may have their own problems.

Originally posted by BobbyTarass
Last time I checked, the USA and Japan were the world leaders in terms of entertainment yet they are far from

What year are you living in, 1990?

reply to post by manykapao


There's nothing wrong with a nations population stagnating .. in all actuality it is a representation of a well to do economy that when population stagnates there is an equilibrium of wealth and happiness vs the needs of the state. It's nature. If nature intended us to continue having a drive to reproduce we would, as most people in 3rd world nations do out of a primal drive. The fact is when any population becomes wealthy and healthy they stagnate and sometimes decline to a point of equilibrium. The United States and European white populations have done so, as has Japan.

However.. stagnating populations are horrible for Corporate profits. Hence why every Western Nation is hell bent on finding the most 3rd world Humans to come take residency and work the lowest forms of jobs to alleviate the burden of consumerism on a stagnating population. Europe's white population is aging and shrinking. But European populations are growing quite rapidly through immigration.

Viva la corporate profits!

Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by BobbyTarass
Last time I checked, the USA and Japan were the world leaders in terms of entertainment yet they are far from

What year are you living in, 1990?

I dont quite understand where you trying to get at... as I also think that the US and Japan still are the "world leaders" in entertainment. I dont know any country that even matches those two.

By what you've said, what are you thinking?

(I just hope you wont mention bollywood)

This is inevitable, as we advance in technology. There will be a day when power, food production and transport will all be done automatically or with very minimal human interaction. Will it be then be socialist or lazy to not have to work nearly as hard or long to put a bit of money to save for a retirement or for spending money?
There will be a day when people can live for 100 of years in a android would we even want or need too reproduce?

2045

Originally posted by lampsalot

Originally posted by BobbyTarass
Last time I checked, the USA and Japan were the world leaders in terms of entertainment yet they are far from

What year are you living in, 1990?

Why don't you give me your insight, I'm eager to read it.

reply to post by Scouser640
[mThe 1st and 2nd World wars had a large impact on Europe but they weren't bankrupt then why now. They didn't have a World Bank to indept them at that time . But now the World Bank is willing to lend more money than they can pay back just like it was in 2005 . The ploy is to get the Governments in debt and then you gain control . It's funny this is going on all over the world . The World Bank is made up of member countries contributions , but they are all in debt to this World Bank .Who controls this bank ?
Demographics is not the problem in Europe those ( old ) people have paid their dues , who squandered the wealth away that they contributed to society . In America the crooked politicians squandered away the Social Security fund giving money to establish the world bank who is now wanting to shut down SS.

Everyone is old and no one can find a good job? With all the old people and lack of younger workers, employers should be falling all over themselves to hire people at high wages. But it's not happening.

It is almost impossible to determine any one cause for Europe's problems-
because Europe is many countries, with different problems and different reasons for them.

The Euro can be pointed out simply because it made one country's problem everyone elses problem!

But let's look at the particular points you bring up.
The birthrates have gone down in strongly roman catholic countries; in Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania.
Britain's birthrate is rising, as is France, Italy and Spain. Germany's birthrate is dropping lower however.

Everywhere, an abrupt decline in birthrates and illegal immigration since the 2008 economic meltdown has caused a current slowdown.

www.guardian.co.uk...

The biggest problems for future retiree's is that people are living longer.
That means that even in countries with a growing birthrate, you still end up with too many old people in comparison with young people.

In that sense, one could logically take the discussion in the direction of asking- if a lifestyle allows people to be in better health and live longer, is that necessarily best for all in the long run??? (we're so used to assuming it is the proof of a successful society, that is a little troubling to consider!)

So a problem with social security for retirees in the future IS foreseen.
Let's see if that can be a result of the EU countries being older in general?
Let's compare the situation of a younger nation- the US!

Apparently we had the Boomer generation, which was huge, then the birthrates dropped.

"Currently, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects program cost to rise by 2035 so that taxes will be enough to pay for only 75 percent of scheduled benefits. This increase in cost results from population aging, not because we are living longer, but because birth rates dropped from three to two children per woman."

- Chief Actuary of the Social Security Administration. (www.ssa.gov...)

It isn't just about how many they are, but how they consume...

In 1962, we were laying down the foundations of prosperity. About 32 cents of every federal dollar, excluding interest payments, was spent on investments, only 14 percent on entitlements. In the mid-70s the lines crossed. Today we spend less than 15 cents on investment and 46 cents on entitlements. And it gets worse. By 2030, when the last of us boomers have surged onto the Social Security rolls, entitlements will consume 61 cents of every federal dollar, starving our already neglected investment and leaving us, in the words of the study, with “a less-skilled work force, lower rates of job creation, and an infrastructure unfit for a 21st-century economy.”

(www.nytimes.com...)




I don't know. I am not convinced yet that the social security problem that looms in our future is so much a product of Europeans not making enough babies and being old stagnant fogies! Because the US is in the same spot and they are young.

I haven't seen the kinds of employment problems you are describing, but then I don't know what country you are talking about. In the European country I am in, there is more than enough french kids for manual labor- unlike in the US, kids that don't want or don't seem right for higher education and positions are directed to technical schools or right into the work force at 16 years old.
It is culturally a wider accepted concept that manual work is just as essential and important for a nation as is the engineering and managing work, so there is no notion of shame at choosing that path instead of wasting years in college). Result is less need for immigrants to do that work.
-But also immigrants that come in anyway, do not work at all, and take advantage of the social security! THIS is a problem where I am! Their birthrate is explosive as well, compared to the native population.


Off the top of my head, my own opinion can be summed up thus:
Many of the EU nations, that are older and have already been through the phases of being a world power, imperialism, and the fall from that, have formed cultures that are much wiser in some respects- more balanced. They have learned much and yes, some of the fugue of youth has left them, along with the folly.

They generally are less innovative... and although us americans tend to reject past as useless, looking forward to future only, the past and what has been already can be a gold mine of wisdom, which I think we underestimate in our surge for material riches!

But like old people that get ripped off by unethical conmen, and end up supporting the screw up grandchild, that happens too. It IS happening.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

 

old men do not make war.

When they are polititians they do, they just don't fight it. I get the feeling that you are young, anybody who talks of war in such a blase manner is either young or young at heart.

reply to post by manykapao

Europe's troubles are due to their being a geriatric continent

Europe's troubles are due to IT being a geriatric continent.

Just saying.

reply to post by Bilky


War equals jobs building war materials , shipping them and manning incidental jobs . Europes problems were created by the Banksters just like Americas . Iceland has an arrest warrant out for the Bankster that crippled their economy .America has been bankrupt since 1933 . The privatley owned Federal Reserve caused that crash by pulling 1/3rd of the money out of circulation . There was a gain for the Fed and a loss for us . Thats what bankers are all about . Making money .