Revealed: UK Government Pays NHS Hospitals to Kill People

reply to post by Liberal1984

Murder is taking place under the LPC, and by defending the LPC (something that no matter how proper when well done) has led to this situation, you are effectively encouraging the use of government-NHS hospitals as murdering grounds to continue.

Just want to say as someone who cares for dying people using the LCP, I find your posts offensive and you really are in no position to judge, you have no idea the emotional toll it can take on us in health care. So unless you are using this care plan on a daily basis and actually know what you are talking about please do me and my colleagues a favour, shut up and let us get on with doing our jobs, saving lives and caring for those we can’t save.

OtherSideTheCoin At the end of the day euthanasia is not legal in Britain. The vast majority of people (and I am one) wish it to become legal, but the influences of religion, cowardly politics, and various cross party consensus presently prevent any law change.

It is therefore not for doctors to use starvation-dehydration as a form of euthanasia. You are not a hospice, and neither are you a law court.

The fact at least one 82 year old woman only survived because family defied doctors by listening to what she said (rather than what they were saying) indicates that you are not necessarily that great a court anyway (since her case obviously indicates there will be plenty who had the misfortune of having more obedient relatives). The fact someone must be dying against their will right now, means someone is being murdered by the NHS –not simply euthanized.

After all the single biggest difference between euthanasia and murder, is the person receiving euthanasia must actually asks for it. Personally I’d much rather jump off a cliff than be starved-dehydrated to death. Consequently the only time I’d want to be deny food is to extend my life –not hasten its end.

Most Importantly…
If you ever meet a patient who is begging for food-water than that person is being murdered, not euthanized (since the act of begging means they have clearly changed their mind) -even if they had earlier wanted to die this way.

Purely my view…
From what I hear about the NHS is it is loaded with overworked staff. So there’s no way in hell I’d want these sorts to be making a decision about whether I should die.
The only types I’d come close to trusting is myself, or if I’m not available then my nearest family.
In such a situation I would want the overworked NHS people to (potentially) challenge my families decision –but no way would I want them deciding to end it.

OtherSideOfTheCoin

So unless you are using this care plan on a daily basis and actually know what you are talking about please do me and my colleagues a favour, shut up and let us get on with doing our jobs, saving lives and caring for those we can’t save.

Yeah, shut up so you and your overworked staff can decide to kill me in the event I’m badly struck down? Shut up so that less 82 old’s only survive because they had a family willing to defy your advice? And shut up because if you decide it’s not worth my family knowing I’m on the LCP, then your word is absolutely final.

To be honest I (suspect) you want people quite so you don’t have to wrestle with your own conscious-experience.

Unless you have the patients consent the LCP is an evil. With the patients consent it’s fine –just so long as they know what they’re getting themselves into.
It’s worth noting: If there was ever any change in UK law, a court will want specialist units of only (at most) well-worked staff to make these choices.

reply to post by Liberal1984


You have no idea about what you are talking about, I do this is my job I am educated to degree level in caring for people this includes those who are dying.

Firstly Euthanasia is illegal in the UK, that is to say giving a drug to end the live of a patient who would otherwise live. However what academics call “passive Euthanasia” is not illegal, that is where by medical staff withdraw treatment it is a feature in every aspect of health care. it is legal for a doctor to withhold treatment if it is in the best interests of the patient even if that will result in death.

Yes much of the NHS is understaffed and overworked but guess what it’s always been like that, we’re used to it. I have worked in area’s however where there has been one nurse to each patient and I have had 4 days off a week, trust me that doesn’t feel like being overworked. Unless you work on a ward, please stop making these assumptions.

No a hospital is not a hospice but people die in hospital, please tell me you are not so ignorant of health care that you are surprised by this. It happens daily, sometimes I can have 3 people die on me in one shift, one will be on LCP another will require CPR which is more often than not unsuccessful and then there might be someone else who we just let slip away because he/she has an advanced directive with a DNR. Its not a hospice but with so many sick people it is inevitable that we’re going to be doing plaintive care.

And shut up because if you decide it’s not worth my family knowing I’m on the LCP, then your word is absolutely final.

reply to post by Liberal1984


Where it is possible family are always informed, again unless you ever find yourself in the position of having to phone a man’s wife in the middle of the night while she is looking after his two young kids to say “sorry to say your husband is about to die you need to get here right now” then again stop talking.

Whenever possible family are always informed unless at the request of the patient or circumstances do not allow.

There is an entire page n the version of the LCP that I use concerning “loved ones”.

Obviously people die in hospital. Because they are sent there to be cured –not killed. Why do you think hospices exist?

And why do think “passive euthanasia” is legal?
Do you suppose it’s because starving-dehydrating someone to death is more humane than giving them a drug, or do you think it’s because of the morally questionable “Natural Law” teachings of the Catholic church –a church most people in the UK do to not subscribe to.
Do you think “passive euthanasia” is less regulated than euthanasia would be? And do you think the use of “passive euthanasia” is delaying the legalsation of euthanasia.

Most Importantly…
Do you argue someone could be “passively euthanized” even if they did not consent to it, and even if they were capable of being psychologically conscious?

Family Experience...
My grandfather died in Australia, and begged an aunt to take him out of hospital. He knew he was being given to much pain killing drugs, knew he didn’t want to be there. I suspect he had a few more years ahead.

In this country another relative (Harriet) I did not know as well died on the LCP but our family did not know Till After. On both accounts I’m furious, more with what happened in Australia but then again, my own knowledge over Harriet is a very sketchy. Apart from that I vote, employ, and no amount your pushy washy "offense" is going to stop me in my view, that I want this program ended by the time I'm old. I wish it to be replaced by individual decision made by the individual before-during sickness.

Originally posted by stumason
I would recommend people actually read what the LCP is and how it is used before getting all sanctimonious about it.

Basically, it is only used on those who are terminally ill and in their literal last days. It isn't necessarily used to "hasten" death, but rather make it more comfortable, with high doses of morphine etc. I know if I was terminally ill and in chronic, constant pain at the end of my life, I'd bloody well expect doctors to make dope me up so my last couple of days are much easier.

Its not just used to "kill old people" and if you honestly believe that, it shows you're total ignorance of the matter, which then begs the question why are you commenting on something you do not understand.

LCP - Wiki

Whilst that may be the official line it has been used to leave numerous older folk to die, when in fact they may have had a realistic chance of survival. Your denial of this demonstrates your total ignorance of this.

Just look at the numerous stories that have been running in the Daily Mail and it is quite cleat that some trusts have been abusing this system.

reply to post by Liberal1984


What happened in Auz, I don’t know, to much pain killers can kill, but in no way that a patient would have the ability to say “they have given me too much and it will kill me” with any certainty. As with what happened to Harriet the LCP is not the cause of her death, rather it was the framework that those caring for her used to give her as a peaceful death as possible.

People are sent into hospital to die, I have seen it happen more times that I care to remember, yes it’s probably not the best place but it happens most of the time it’s because the family just don’t care or are not able to provide the care required at home and hospice beds are like gold dust. Or many come into hospital to be cured, there are complications and developments and they then go onto palliative care in hospital. Providing palatine care is part of my job, if you don’t like it that’s fine just thank your lucky stars you’re not the guy on the end having to give out a death message to a distraught family once a week.

On this issue of euthanasia, I don’t want to get into it with you, quite frankly we are arguing on two different levels and I don’t think you’re able to compare my points as you are not medically trained nor appear to have any appreciation for medical ethics. Not the answer you want I know but it’s what you’re getting.

If you don’t ever want to be put on a Liverpool care pathway that’s fine, go get a advanced directive, if your ever in hospital have them document that you don’t want a LCP and tell your family about it. If you ever find yourself with a terminal condition speak to your palliative care specialist nurse about wants regarding your care. in the end what you will probably end up doing is going through the LCP but without the name tag, you will tell them under no circumstances to withdraw nutritional support and that will be fine. So long as you are of sound mind you can make whatever decisions you want about your health

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

Just want to say as someone who cares for dying people using the LCP, I find your posts offensive and you really are in no position to judge, you have no idea the emotional toll it can take on us in health care. So unless you are using this care plan on a daily basis and actually know what you are talking about please do me and my colleagues a favour, shut up and let us get on with doing our jobs, saving lives and caring for those we can’t save.

Whilst this may be the case in the establishment you work in, alas it cannot be said for every NHS Trust according to the number of stories being reported in the press. I appreciate the job you have to do is extremely stressful and emotional, but if half the stories being reported are true it is a disgusting indictment on the state of pressures being fed down from upon high.

Whilst I can see the reasons for its introduction in caring for people who are terminally ill, to choose this pathway for people who have a chance of survival is totally abhorrent.

reply to post by Cobaltic1978

Your denial of this demonstrates your total ignorance of this.

Just look at the numerous stories that have been running in the Daily Mail and it is quite cleat that some trusts have been abusing this system.

And the fact that you are seemingly so willing to believe the daily mail without question only demonstrates your ignorance of just about everything.

Please I would encourage you to read my first post.

They call this hospice care in the USA. It is designed to make end of life more pleasant. If the desire existed we could keep everyone alive by mechanical means for extended periods of time. That does nothing for the patient if they aren't even cognizant to what is happening to them. It's at that point you end treatment. It's not cruel or evil, it's just what has to be done for everyone involved. I'm sure mistakes are made but I doubt it as prevelant as this article makes it out to be.

reply to post by Cobaltic1978


Just so you know, if people are on the LCP and there is still a change for them to survive if say they were to be given a huge does of antibiotics and they stated they wanted treatment to continue then we would give the antibiotics.

A LCP is not the same as a DNR that also states a patient is not for any escalation in treatment that is a entirely different situation to be debated at another time. However patients on the LCP are never for resuscitation they may be for continuation and escalation of treatment if it is likely to improve, prolong or cure their condition.

The LCP is just a tool we use to provide a framework to provide care to patients who are dying it is not a pathway to ensure death as the article implies.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

And the fact that you are seemingly so willing to believe the daily mail without question only demonstrates your ignorance of just about everything.

How on earth does that demonstrate an ignorance of just about everything? I don't know if you have been working too many hours, but that sentence alone is extremely offensive.

Do you make medical decisions with similar disdain? Talk about supercilious!!

reply to post by Cobaltic1978


What I mean is that the daily mail is very well known for its exaggeration, you seem willing to just believe it which to me implies that you believe everything you read, that fuels ignorance. Just because the daily mail or the telegraph say’s “LCP kills people who would otherwise live” does not make it true.

I quoted the Daily Mail as an example, because they are obviously running a campaign on this. There have been other reports in the media.

As I originally stated, I appreciate the reasons it was introduced, but as there are numerous claims of the abuse of this pathway, then there should be an investigation where the findings need to be made public. For re-assurance purposes alone.

In future maybe you should refrain from assuming about a person's level of ignorance, from reading just one comment. It doesn't come across very well and can be deemed as a demonstration of a lack of manners.

New info about the LCP from the Government:

Relatives of terminally-ill patients would have to be consulted before a decision to withdraw food or water is taken, under new government proposals.

It comes after some patients were placed on the Liverpool Care Pathway - designed to relieve suffering - without their relatives' knowledge.

The government wants to ensure families are told of life and death decisions.

The instruction will be included in a number of proposed changes to the NHS Constitution to be unveiled on Monday.

The Liverpool Care Pathway was developed at the Royal Liverpool University Hospital and the city's Marie Curie hospice to relieve suffering in dying patients, setting out principles for their treatment in their final days and hours.

BBC News