punishment, why?

reply to post by smyleegrl


YES!


that is beautiful and right to the point

could not have said it better.

Natural consequence.

it took a mother to describe what I am trying to articulate.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

If you could legally punch someone back for fighting with you

you can...it's called self defense. Is some states I can shoot you instead..legally.

reply to post by howmuch4another


OK

why SOME

why the distinction

do different types of humans live in these states?

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

I am not saying we should not have punishment for an act of aggression. What I am asking is why formalize it to the point of the victim needing legal precedent to defend himself. If you could legally punch someone back for fighting with you, then the threat of getting into a fight would be less ( sober people ) since even if you had a "way out" you would still face another person not limited by a distinction a formal authority would place on them.


then no amount of power and privilege could protect you from the response of the person you injured/ hurt/ or threatened.

I don't know what legal system you're referring to, where I'm from if a person attacks me physically I have a right to defend myself and as long as I don't use excessive force I am within my rights, it all depends on the circumstances.

reply to post by manykapao


because in the United States we regionalize power to best conform to the local populations needs and values after an accepted norm is established nationally. It is called "States Rights" maybe something for you to google.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by howmuch4another

 

OK

why SOME

why the distinction

do different types of humans live in these states?

Go to an Arab country, you steal an apple they cut your hand off, you'll find that not much apples get stolen in these places.

Originally posted by manykapao
Why do we punish people?

Well, haven't you been the busy little beaver today?

Gnawing away at the boards like this.

I understand your question but I don't understand your follow up response..............to your own question.

A society's form of punishments are based on their belief systems. In the middle east the punishment for stealing is cutting off a digit. Or the entire hand even. Here in the west you get a slap on the wrist because we're more civilized. I guess we want to give them more chances to get it right to where they don't get caught. I don't know.

To answer one of your questions, no, we haven't really evolved as much past "apes" as we'd like to believe. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you think you're better then us, then please, by all means set us straight as to the error of our ways. Us apes need a lot of help.

Trust me when I tell you this OP, punishment is needed in this society because you have so many people chomping at the bit for a total breakdown of society so they can run around willy nilly and do whatever the hell they want. If you want to be on the receiving end of that, you go right ahead. Just take a look at some of the topics here on the Social Issues board. The cops are the bad guys, not only because they uphold the laws that people don't agree with, but also because of the way they uphold the laws. As if they know how to do it better because of their extensive training. But all they do is complain about it. They don't give ideas on valid alternatives. Kind of like what you're doing huh? You're putting down the concept of punishment but you're not giving any ideas on what a good alternative would be.

Or are you waiting for us to do that for you so you can finish your social studies assignment for school?

Here's an idea OP. Why don't take the reins of your own thread and formulate an opinion on what you perceive to be the solution to the "problem", and post it here so everyone can debate the issue. We may help you finish your assignment, but at least you started the ball rolling by bringing something constructive of your own to the table ........not a lot of bitching and moaning.

Tit for tat buddy.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by AnonymousCitizen

 

but some "acts" are inherently inscribed in our human nature. It makes no sense to punish someone for acting within his nature.

Like yelling at a dog for barking.

It is a dog, they bark.
why punish the dog barking back?

I'd never punish a barking dog. Corrective encouragement? (treats for quiet...verbal direction for being noisy..) Yes.

If that same dog attacks my son, I'll feel bad, but it's getting shot in the head. It's the difference of scale, if thats how you want to see it.

Punishment as a question though can really only exist in the purely theoretical. The real world has those who turn the other cheek simply unaware of the rest of the assault about to come. No one advocates seeking out people to punish. That's mental illness, IMO. However, when someone crosses the lines society establishes as the norms for behavior, correction by punishment or outright removal from society is what becomes necessary.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


OK lets me Frank. I like that.

So you are saying that what I have done is formulate a question I do not know the answer to. Is that it?
Well I do. I described the process in the first post. It is a You hurt me so I hurt you scenario. A tat for tit if you will. The question that this should provoke in the person reading it, if not blinded by emotion and ego is that people will be people so where then is the justified end really so justified?

You could say that the first response that sets out a series of events like dominos is the most important if what you are trying to establish is a chain of events. The problem with that, as I stated before is that it is always based on when the observer first noticed pain. Mainly his. When the dog heard a bark or felt the vets needle.

What would escape him is the entire process in which he was complicit. To the dog on the vets table he would ask what injustice is this that I am being stuck with needles? His first instance of pain. He would not consider that maybe it is a rabies shot because he bit the mail man. The inevitable event of mail coming from the world over to his house being delivered by perfect strangers. Maybe they are not his family but his over protective nature , being a dog that he is, led him to bite a mail man serving his purpose, not seeking to hurt the dogs family.

So the dog on the table is upset and can only think to the pain he is feeling, and can not consider his wrong in biting a mail man that must come like it or not. His house is not a desert outpost and so the daily mail is part of life. He can not go biting every mail man just because it is in his nature. If he does he will get the occasional rabies shot.


Law of life bub. No one causes pain without the threat of receiving it. Everything has consequences no matter the distinction we like to make. We are the same animal. The thing is at some point you have to climb down from the tree and forget your pain and let the mail in.
But that is for men, not emotional beasts that bite people for natural events of life.

Some times it is tat for tit. No matter what the distinction. People are people, animal's too.

We could learn or only think to the vet table, when we first thought our pain began, ensuring our return when we forget about the mail coming in every day.

So why? Let me answer myself. Because that is human nature and no one and nothing will change that. The smart ones just accep that and learn becoming more, the others don't staying the same.

Have a good day.

reply to post by manykapao


We call it punish, but in reality we try to remove harmful people from society so they cannot harm others.
They are well fed, allowed to exercise and have clean cloths and warm showers...no to bad.

This is the largest type of "punishment".

Yes they do have the death penalty still in some places but they don't usually carry them out.

Punishment is needed in this world, We can not compare Animals to humans on the fact that Humans are not limited to how much intelligence they can hold, As for animals they are intelligent but not at the same level of humans, With intelligence comes great responsibly therefore Punishment is a must for it enables us to control our actions, Without Punishment it is in human nature that people would think they could do (Actions) what ever they feel like (Good or Bad) causing genius evil plans to wipe out the human race, That is why the law is out.

It sets order to the human race.

reply to post by manykapao


Punishment doesn't always have to be about retribution or revenge.

Remember, one way of changing behavior is positive or negative reinforcement. Punishment can also be for a person's own good.

I think most of the 'punishment' in this country is allll about MONEY! Yea, they don't take your finger here when you steal because it has NO value to anyone but you. They take your cash.

It's our choice to live in this organized society. You can move off the grid and fend for yourself, or, you can follow the rules.

If it were up to me, i'd give a thief a choice.
A. HUGE monetary fine.
B. Court ordered classes or therapy sessions. Enough to really upset someone's day to day life, and at a cost of about half of A.
C A finger/hand/whatever.

ALSO as for violent crime, imo, you know what you are getting yourself into and thereby give up your rights. If my husband was beating on one of my kids and instead of getting the hell out of dodge, I stabbed him in the heart, I wouldn't be surprised if I did go to jail. Not for the a tremendous length of time, but some. When a person harms an innocent citizen they are knowingly and willingly giving up their rights to be treated like anything other than a prisoner.


I like your post, and all the comments that follow. Very interesting thoughts and opinions!!

Every action has an equal and opposite re-action. Punishment in any form is the ladder of that statement. It's what seperates us from animals. In the animal kingdom the weak and infirmed don't make it. Natures way of culling out the weak, so stronger DNA goes on.

So with your stance on punishment are we to think you would want us to just let the weak die? As said, it's what seperates us from the animals. Because without punishment we would be just "animals" toward each other. But I will agree on this point. We as a society need to overhaul our prison/punishment system. Some sentences don't go with the crime. When we have folks locked up for 150 years because they had 2 grams of weed on them, and folks who commit murder get 30 years. And white collar criminals rarely see the inside of a jail cell.

Without punishment we would revert to the ways of animals. We already treat each other bad enough,, don't you think?

reply to post by openyourmind1262


In my opinion, it is as close to being animals that we can be.

Either I misspoke or was misrepresented.

I asked why make the distinction you just made.

That it is separate. That somehow animals don't punish as we do.

I advocated nothing, but asked why the distinction, when really there is none, except for the one we create.

We are dual beings. One social, what we call mankind. The other an animal, that acts in response to his pain.

Punishment has no form of reform incorporated into it as it should not. It is a form of revenge and a safe guard against further pain.

That is the only deterrent. There are consequences whether you formalize them or not. The distinction only serves the purpose of establishing an illusion of authority, monopoly of power, and with that of control.

we are animals under the illusion that our behavior is not out of emotion and in reaction to pleasure or pain.

sorry. It is what it is,

I don't understand why this is such a charged issue. Unless you feel that your position in authority with the monopoly of force is somehow being questioned (which it is not) I fail to see how you can jump to such absurd and offensive conclusions.

reply to post by manykapao



What is the point? NONE

monkey vengeance? YES

So emotion is supreme? YES

Like children in a temper tantrum, their emotions are then valid? HIMSELF HAS INHERENT HUMAN NATURE

if they could punish would they be correct, if that is in fact why we punish people? BECAUSE ITS THE HUMAN WAY

are there not higher and more effective ideals to reach for, or is the child not even going to try because he wants what he wants? WE ARE CHILDREN

are childish monkeys? YES

can't we try harder? YES TOUGHER PUNISHMENT LAWS

OP, you have a valid question here in more way than one, but the subject is confusing to most and hard to talk about with most people. You will find that most people agree that we need laws that require punishment for negative acts towards the community. This thinking is flawed and hopefully one day will be in our past. Some cultures have come to realize this and established communities with relatively little negative behavior. Of course things like jealousy and anger will always be part of human nature, they can be worked out and dealt with in a civilized way. The profound difference in thinking about this delima is exactly why the early Americans were in effect considerably more barbaric than the Indians that they conquered. The Natives were aware that the only punishment necessary to keep the peace was banishment. Humans will do anything and everything they can to avoid being outcast. Nobody wants to be cast out from family or community. Sometimes the tribe would literally act as if the wrongdoer was not even there and look right past him. This form of punishment was more severe than turning them completely out.

On the other hand a community with strict rules and guidelines is much stronger than the peace keeping tribe and therefor will eventually come to dominate. It is unfortunate that some of the things that make us barbaric by nature are the very same things that make us prosper.

reply to post by Quauhtli


very insightful post. I am glad to see some clear minds around. Cheers.

There are multiple reasons for punishment: deterrence, rehabilitation, societal protection, retribution, restoration. Punishment will differ based on which ones are considered more important. Society with more accent on rehabilitation and protection will have less unpleasant punishments than society which accents deterrence and retribution.

This question played a role in "The Culture" series of sci-fi books. In their interstellar civilisation, the role of punishment was reduced to societal protection only, basically making sure that it does not repeat again. Therefore, a convicted criminal got assigned a flying robot to keep an eye on him, nothing else.

reply to post by manykapao


Intelligence is what seperates us from animals. Free will seperates us as well. To not punish for a wrong doing in the end will lead us to all act like animals. And my friend you are so right in how we treat each other now. It's insane we treat our fellow humans the way we do.