Jesus was a "Muslim"

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

the verses in NT that you mentioned contain words like 'worshipped' ya but they also could be 'knelt' 'prayed' it doesnt prove anything, as you may know,old english has quotes like"i pray thee"
and from OT, ya thats Allah talking about Himself

Man you are BLIND. Trying to hold onto the tiniest excuse to deny what is right there in your face. 2000 years worth of scholars have poured over those texts. I got one right now with degrees in ancient aramaic and hebrew who is a jewish christian pastor who can tell you it means he really was worshipped, but you may doubt a jew who accepted Christ as Savior.

Ask Dr. Michael Brown what those verses mean if you don't believe me. BTW kneeling and praying at his feet is still a form of worship, but it means what is means, he was worshipped.

AskDrBrown

Go look in the targums and read what they say about the Memra (Word of God)

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

To be polite, i'l let you have that and ya now i get you better. But then why would Muhammad(pbuh) twist bible and make getting followers harder? As if they dint have enough trouble from pagan meccans. And later annoy jews in medina and make them enemies?

In my personal opinion, Muhammad was rebelling against the notion that Isaac's descendants would be the ones who were able to lay claim to Abraham's inheritance. Although God promised to make the Ishamelites a great nation, He made it clear that the inheritance was meant for Isaac's descendants.

I'm sure there were plenty of Ishmaelites who were willing to fight for what they thought should be theirs and follow Muhammad to claim it for themselves, regardless of what enemies he made in the process. He had to discredit Jesus, as Jesus was a descendant of Isaac.

Just like we see today. The Middle East is still fighting over the inheritance.

ya that makes sense(sarcasm) and it also makes sense to have a chapter on Mary, defend her honour.
And ya discredit Jesus(pbuh) by accepting virgin birth, miracles and that he is Messiah.
Just not agreeing to a blasphemy that he is god, interestingly Jews stand with muslims on this. They use the same alleged divinity claim of christians to deny him as Messiah.
Jews know their text and know Messiah is not god and neither can Messiah die till he fulfils his job.
Christians say he is messiah, god and also died(wow dint leave anything)
Muslims say he is messiah, not god, dint die
.
I wonder who makes more sense..

The Quran even has a surah about a yellow cow. What is wrong with this surah..is that the cow in question was actually RED and for the RED HEIFER CEREMONY. How could Mohammed miss that one....

Wait....Mohammed never wrote the quran, his followers did..So Uthman got it wrong.

I ain't giving Mohammed credit for the Quran, because he didn't write it...

this is translation by George Sale
.
2:69 They said, pray for us unto thy Lord
that he would shew us what colour
she is of. Moses answered, he saith,
she is a red cow, intensely red, her
colour rejoiceth the beholders.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

the verses in NT that you mentioned contain words like 'worshipped' ya but they also could be 'knelt' 'prayed' it doesnt prove anything, as you may know,old english has quotes like"i pray thee"
and from OT, ya thats Allah talking about Himself

Man you are BLIND. Trying to hold onto the tiniest excuse to deny what is right there in your face. 2000 years worth of scholars have poured over those texts. I got one right now with degrees in ancient aramaic and hebrew who is a jewish christian pastor who can tell you it means he really was worshipped, but you may doubt a jew who accepted Christ as Savior.

Ask Dr. Michael Brown what those verses mean if you don't believe me. BTW kneeling and praying at his feet is still a form of worship, but it means what is means, he was worshipped.

AskDrBrown

Go look in the targums and read what they say about the Memra (Word of God)

My friend, i'l go and check and get back to you. But i cant get how you ignore what i am pointing out,
like if i say,"who can drink an ocean? Tell me his name" i am not talking about God, just sarcastically saying a statement to prove a point the same in proverbs and continous to the point in 30:5 and a warning not to lie about GOD in 30:6

Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people.

The problem in the ME has nothing to do with them being Muslims, or whatever, it is because of 104 years of outside nations meddling in their affairs. France, Britain, Germany, Russia, the USA. The region has not been allowed to develop. A region that could be more powerful than the US. It's not about religion it's about economic control.

Say China invades and takes over America. Would you fight back? Would the Chinese call you Christian terrorists if you did?

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

the verses in NT that you mentioned contain words like 'worshipped' ya but they also could be 'knelt' 'prayed' it doesnt prove anything, as you may know,old english has quotes like"i pray thee"
and from OT, ya thats Allah talking about Himself

Man you are BLIND. Trying to hold onto the tiniest excuse to deny what is right there in your face. 2000 years worth of scholars have poured over those texts. I got one right now with degrees in ancient aramaic and hebrew who is a jewish christian pastor who can tell you it means he really was worshipped, but you may doubt a jew who accepted Christ as Savior.

Ask Dr. Michael Brown what those verses mean if you don't believe me. BTW kneeling and praying at his feet is still a form of worship, but it means what is means, he was worshipped.

AskDrBrown

Go look in the targums and read what they say about the Memra (Word of God)

My friend, i'l go and check and get back to you. But i cant get how you ignore what i am pointing out,
like if i say,"who can drink an ocean? Tell me his name" i am not talking about God, just sarcastically saying a statement to prove a point the same in proverbs and continous to the point in 30:5 and a warning not to lie about GOD in 30:6

Whatever dude, i'm not lying. I can pull an equal amount of scholars out of my ass agreeing with me. I know what rhetoric is, it's you who are ignoring me and you're ignoring the fact that the bible does infact say Jesus was worshipped.

Sounds like liberal drivel to me, nobody can truly know what Jesus was and the fact that he existed long before Islam was even a religion makes the whole argument void. Jewish, yes, Muslim, WTF?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Sorry again, but there are way more alternates for Mount Sinai than Jabal al-lawz in Saudi Arabia. Just because you decided on that one doesn't make it so. The Bible makes no verifiable reference to the geographical location of Mount Sinai.

How about what I asked? A reference or artifact that shows that Muhammad or the early muslims gave the crescent moon and star any sort of significance whatsoever. It doesn't exist. And there is loads of evidence to the opposite. If you have to go back by a thousands of years in the general geographic location for your "proof", I could do the same (and much much more) with regards to the paganism in Christianity and Judaism.

Think of the people before Moses.... say for example, Abraham. Was he a jew? Nope. Was he one who submitted to God ? Well?

The word "muslim" unlike "Jew" and "Christian" is not derived from any particular person.. but simply means one who submits. But of course, these days the fundamentalists would rather have you associate "muslim" with those scary brown bearded people with AKs.

The simple truth is that the religion known as "Islam", like Judaism and Christianity arose from an already existing religious culture (starting from Adam). Most people see 3 seperate religion.... some see ONE single prophetic tradition.

Originally posted by logical7

Jesus(pbuh) is NOT god incarnate. Thats Exactly what the muslim stand is. And as Jesus did not worship himself or asked anyone to worship him. He had a good idea about his belief which is same as muslim belief. christianity was invented after he was gone, verses fabricated to invent trinity, even bible scholars threw out the only verse about trinity as a forgery and lets see what Jesus(pbuh) has to say to people who still practice the same..
..
Matthew (7:22-23)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.

The verses you quoted are nothing more than Jesus clarifying that committing wonders in his name doesn't do you any good if you aren't living in obedience, faith, and doing these wonders for the right reasons. There are plenty of pastors, evangelists, healers, etc. that start out on the right path, get sucked in by greed and fame and then continue on in their work for all of the wrong reasons. This is what those verses were talking about. Notice the last part that says, "depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Any good doing is wiped out when you're committing iniquities in the dark and behind the scenes.

In the meanwhile, here's something else JESUS said to counter your misinterpretation so there's no misunderstanding:

Matthew 10:37-40

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for MY SAKE shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Think of the people before Moses.... say for example, Abraham. Was he a jew? Nope. Was he one who submitted to God ? Well?

The word "muslim" unlike "Jew" and "Christian" is not derived from any particular person.. but simply means one who submits. But of course, these days the fundamentalists would rather have you associate "muslim" with those scary brown bearded people with AKs.

The simple truth is that the religion known as "Islam", like Judaism and Christianity arose from an already existing religious culture (starting from Adam). Most people see 3 seperate religion.... some see ONE single prophetic tradition.

Who do you think you're convincing or kidding here?

If this were true, there would be no religion called "Islam" and you would all just go by the name "Muslim".

Today, a "Muslim" is known as an adherent to "Islam".

When the day comes where I see someone call themselves a "Muslim" and yet they denounce anything and everything that references Muhammad, then I'll believe you. But I won't hold my breath.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, he said it - but wait! According to whom? Who wrote that line down? Who SAYS that that person wrote that line down?

Yellow journalism, anybody? We have NOT A DAMN BIT OF PROOF that Jesus actually said those words. We only know that somebody heard from somebody else that he said those words, so that 'somebody' wrote it down. Or something like that.

Sorry, however logic has no place in this thread, Begone with you Begone

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, he said it - but wait! According to whom? Who wrote that line down? Who SAYS that that person wrote that line down?

Yellow journalism, anybody? We have NOT A DAMN BIT OF PROOF that Jesus actually said those words. We only know that somebody heard from somebody else that he said those words, so that 'somebody' wrote it down. Or something like that.

3 different first hand accounts, what more do you want. That easily meets the burden of proof.

Who are these 3 2000year old people, bring them forth before me so that I may believe

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by logical7

 

To be polite, i'l let you have that and ya now i get you better. But then why would Muhammad(pbuh) twist bible and make getting followers harder? As if they dint have enough trouble from pagan meccans. And later annoy jews in medina and make them enemies?

In my personal opinion, Muhammad was rebelling against the notion that Isaac's descendants would be the ones who were able to lay claim to Abraham's inheritance. Although God promised to make the Ishamelites a great nation, He made it clear that the inheritance was meant for Isaac's descendants.

I'm sure there were plenty of Ishmaelites who were willing to fight for what they thought should be theirs and follow Muhammad to claim it for themselves, regardless of what enemies he made in the process. He had to discredit Jesus, as Jesus was a descendant of Isaac.

Just like we see today. The Middle East is still fighting over the inheritance.

ya that makes sense(sarcasm) and it also makes sense to have a chapter on Mary, defend her honour.
And ya discredit Jesus(pbuh) by accepting virgin birth, miracles and that he is Messiah.
Just not agreeing to a blasphemy that he is god, interestingly Jews stand with muslims on this. They use the same alleged divinity claim of christians to deny him as Messiah.
Jews know their text and know Messiah is not god and neither can Messiah die till he fulfils his job.
Christians say he is messiah, god and also died(wow dint leave anything)
Muslims say he is messiah, not god, dint die
.
I wonder who makes more sense..

The Quran even has a surah about a yellow cow. What is wrong with this surah..is that the cow in question was actually RED and for the RED HEIFER CEREMONY. How could Mohammed miss that one....

Wait....Mohammed never wrote the quran, his followers did..So Uthman got it wrong.

I ain't giving Mohammed credit for the Quran, because he didn't write it...

this is translation by George Sale
.
2:69 They said, pray for us unto thy Lord
that he would shew us what colour
she is of. Moses answered, he saith,
she is a red cow, intensely red, her
colour rejoiceth the beholders.

Sahih International Surah 2:68-69 They said, "Call upon your Lord to make clear to us what it is." [Moses] said, "[ Allah ] says, 'It is a cow which is neither old nor virgin, but median between that,' so do what you are commanded."They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us what is her color." He said, "He says, 'It is a yellow cow, bright in color - pleasing to the observers.' "

Sahih says yellow. Then who is right? Sale or Sahih?

Sahih International Surah 2:71 He said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to plow the earth nor to irrigate the field, one free from fault with no spot upon her.' " They said, "Now you have come with the truth." So they slaughtered her, but they could hardly do it.

Here is the corresponding account from the Bible...

KJV Numbers19:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

The Temple Institute gives the explanation for the red heifer ceremony. The Quran writers should have gotten it correct.

And this is what George Sale had to say about Islam..

As Mohammed gave his Arabs the best religion he could, preferable, at least, to those of the ancient pagan lawgivers, I confess I cannot see why he deserves not equal respect, though not with Moses or Jesus Christ, whose laws came really from heaven, yet with Minos or Numa, notwithstanding the distinction of a learned writer, who seems to think it a greater crime to make use of an imposture to set up a new religion, founded on the acknowledgment of one true God, and to destroy idolatry, than to use the same means to gain reception to rules and regulations for the more orderly practice of heathenism already established.

Hmm, it appears that the man you chose to use as a source, does not legitimize Mohammed at all.

Originally posted by InhaleExhale

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, he said it - but wait! According to whom? Who wrote that line down? Who SAYS that that person wrote that line down?

Yellow journalism, anybody? We have NOT A DAMN BIT OF PROOF that Jesus actually said those words. We only know that somebody heard from somebody else that he said those words, so that 'somebody' wrote it down. Or something like that.

3 different first hand accounts, what more do you want. That easily meets the burden of proof.

Who are these 3 2000year old people, bring them forth before me so that I may believe

Can you bring forth eyewitnesses of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, so that I might believe they existed? While you are at it, please bring the eye witnesses of William Shakespeare, Aristotle, Socrates, Henry VIII. Until you do, I will believe the world began in 1967, the year I was born. Nothing came before me, so make me believe they existed by eye witnesses, if you can.

What illogic you propose.

Jesus was a Jewish guy. Semetic, not white. By the way who cares? Organized religion is stupid and is just meant to control people.

Every religion does the same things politicians do, they tax you and try to control your life and mind. For the majority of earth they have excelled in their plans. If you feel offended your one of the sheeple. Enjoy!

Every religion does the same things politicians do, they tax you and try to control your life and mind. For the majority of earth they have excelled in their plans. If you feel offended your one of the sheeple. Enjoy!

Every religion does the same things politicians do, they tax you and try to control your life and mind. For the majority of earth they have excelled in their plans. If you feel offended your one of the sheeple. Enjoy!

Every religion does the same things politicians do, they tax you and try to control your life and mind. For the majority of earth they have excelled in their plans. If you feel offended your one of the sheeple. Enjoy!

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by InhaleExhale

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, he said it - but wait! According to whom? Who wrote that line down? Who SAYS that that person wrote that line down?

Yellow journalism, anybody? We have NOT A DAMN BIT OF PROOF that Jesus actually said those words. We only know that somebody heard from somebody else that he said those words, so that 'somebody' wrote it down. Or something like that.

3 different first hand accounts, what more do you want. That easily meets the burden of proof.

Who are these 3 2000year old people, bring them forth before me so that I may believe

Can you bring forth eyewitnesses of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, so that I might believe they existed? While you are at it, please bring the eye witnesses of William Shakespeare, Aristotle, Socrates, Henry VIII. Until you do, I will believe the world began in 1967, the year I was born. Nothing came before me, so make me believe they existed by eye witnesses, if you can.

What illogic you propose.

If you care to re read this is my point, there are no first hand witnesses, not one not three none unless as i specified one can be immortal or live thousands of years, so if what you say is illogic (not even sure if this a proper word) that I believe in what I experience and not what im told then I am proud to be illogic or whatever you wish to label as.