Are Your Thoughts Really YOUR Thoughts?

(Let's try this again - without using Notepad as a cut/paste source! )
Once again, Hello ATS. I've come to try and steal another bit of your time...

We are who we are. It is such a basic and self-evident concept that it seems we rarely, if ever, stop to bother to wonder about why we are who we are. Sure, often situations arise that call upon us to question aspects of who we are... to adjust or analyze specific areas of our behavior, to adjust our own self-perceptions regarding identity, or to backtrace the source of traits that we either admire or dislike about ourselves. Many religious disciplines also request or require that we try to understand ourselves from a point of view that we normally would not choose to do so from.

But how many of us ever just sit down and ask:

"Why am I the person I am today?"
"Why do I feel so passionately about the things I am passionate about?"
"Why do I believe in the things I believe in?"

And, ultimately... How much of "me" was self-induced, organically, of my own accord? How much of my "self" is geniune and how much has been placed there by others?"

That is question that fascinates me endlessly and one I hope to plant the seeds of, within you, today. Who am I and why am I this way???

Genetic Self-Identity

A sizable chunk of who we are was determined the second that our parents created us. In that instant 23 chromosomes and a whole lot of genetic information is passed, from each parent, and combined into the unique you that you would eventually, one day, be. In that instant, to a great extent, most of your physical traits were decided. Your skin, hair, and eye color, the type of hair you'd have ( straight, curly, wavy ), what your body type would be predisposed towards being, how tall you'd eventually become, even what your potential IQ might be... Environmental factors certainly have a role in altering that "initial you". But reasonably speaking, the person you see in the mirror was there from that very moment of conception.

This gentic identity influnces how we think of ourselves, and others, quite dramatically. All "accidents of birth do" ( I'll cover at least one more of those further along in "Cultural Identity" ). The way we see ourselves and the way that others see us ( physically speaking ) very much influences our future thoughts, biases, predispositions, and beliefs. If you are extremely attractive then you'll have a different developmental experience than you would have if you were born unattractive. If you are born dark skinned, then you'll experience life differently than a person with light skin would. If you are short, different experience than a tall person. Fat, skinny... blonde, brunette... male, female... gay, straight... gifted, average... All factors that, throughout life, will directly impact the very way we think. These are things, beyond our control, from conception, that directly impact who we become. They predispose us, accordingly, to divergent avenues of thought, socialization, self-image, and even what our future biases might be.

Thus our prejudices, positive or negative, on some levels, came into being at the exact same instant that we did.

NOTE: For the sake of this OP, I am using the following definitions of "prejudice" - primarily definitions number 1 and 2. Though number 3 applies as well, but to a lesser degree and only in the abstract, it is not the primary implied meaning for this OP. I place this note, hopefully, to avoid confusion or misunderstanding along racial, ethnic, or religious lines. I use it as a synonym for "predetermination essentially:

prejudice
Definition

NOUN

1. opinion formed beforehand: a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes
2. holding of ill-informed opinions: the holding of preformed opinions based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes
3. irrational dislike of somebody: an unfounded hatred, fear, or mistrust of a person or group, especially one of a particular religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, or social status
4. law disadvantage or harm: disadvantage or harm caused to somebody or something

Source

Cultural and Social Identity

If it is not enough that we were literally conceived and then born with a list of prejudicial factors already hanging over us - we are then faced with the reality that we are born into a world where we are then surrounded by other people who were also born with their own sets of predetermining prejudicial factors. To make it worse, they were also born into this same situation, generation after generation. So, for better or for worse, we take our first breaths, in this world, already predisposed and being exposed to the passed along, nearly infinite number of other predispostions of those who beat us to the "being born" finish line. From that first breath forward we become opinion sponges and filters. Information begins bombarding us, from all angles, and it never relents.

As we grow and gain understanding of the world around us, we instantly, maybe instinctively, begin cherry picking the beliefs, opinions, and ideas that will influence the person we will grow up to be. Our parents made sure that they taught us what they knew - for better or worse, good and bad alike - as did the society that we happened to be born into. Our culture, "another accident of birth" gives us the language that we will use as the tool of even understanding our own identity - therefore it, obviously, has an incredibly profound impact on the end result. As children we were wired to be highly efficient information gathering devices ( something that diminishes with age ) but, in a cruel and ironic twist of fate, we also possessed this gift at a period when we were most succeptible to suggestion and least able to practice discernment and critical thinking. If a child is told there is a God, then that child knows there is a God. If a child is told there is no God at all, then that child is sure that there is no God. For the first five or six years of life this is the condition that we evolve in. Sponges, without any real filtering ability, just soaking it all in.

It is in this period and state that we begin to develop into ourselves. Absorbing the generationally passed and personal opinions and prejudices of our elders and peers. In this stage of life we begin to form our own views and opinions. But to what degree, even as this age, are those concepts uniquely our own? How many of them originated in and of ourselves versus the number that we simply absorbed from others?

More compelling and troubling... How can we differentiate our unique thoughts and views from those that were transplanted within us from external sources?

~Continued...

Indoctrination

Obviously most people who share information with us do so with the earnest hope of passing along their wisdom and hoping that their insights might help us in our own journey through life and through identity. There are charlatains and hucksters who are the exception to this rule. But I think most of us really do try to put positives out into the world when we speak ( or type ). This urge to share is ingrained within us. We want to put out the "Danger, slippery floor" sign wherever we can - especially when we, ourselves, have happened to taken a tumble in that particular spot (subject, idea, belief, predisposition, prejudice). So we use the tools that nature gave us, the heart that comes with being human, and we do so.

But there is peril in this. After all, we were born with the incentive for prejudicial thought already ingrained within us. Then we were exposed to an endless stream of external sources of the same for the entirety of our lives. How much of "us" is tainted? How much of what we believe is geniune and sincere and now much is indoctrination masquerading, within us, as geniune and sincere belief?

Indoctrination

(From Wikipedia)
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of education, political opinions, theology or religious dogma. The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.

Wikipedia Source

Normally I wouldn't use a Wikipedia article as a source for the definition of a word, but I have made an exception this time because their definition is more broad than the online dictionaries I checked. Since I am desiring to convey a general concept more than an exacting term, I think this acceptable.

The key sentence in the above that I really want to latch onto for a minute is "It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. How about that for a kick in the penalty zone! Information that we are not supposed to question or critically examine??? What?

A fairly famous (or infamous) name that we see on ATS quite often, Noam Chomsky said the following:
"For those who stubbornly seek freedom around the world, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the propaganda system to which we are subjected and in which all too often we serve as unwilling or unwitting instruments."
From the same, above, wiki page sourced

Whether you like the man or not - he makes a valid point. If we are raised to believe that there is just certain information - or even certain sources - which are beyond reproach and to be believed automatically... Then what's stopping them from engaging in indoctrination, progandization, and brainwashing. What's stopping them from overlaying their prejudices and predeterminations onto ours?

At this point I could start discussing brainwashing, religious dogmatic influences, mental militarization, political machinations, and other forms of incalcation. But I will defer from doing so ( at least for this OP ) and remain in the general concepts, rather than delving into highly specific and argumentative avenues of thought.

One of the key components of incalcation or indoctrination is the use of repetition. Broken down to the basics, say it enough and it will become true - even if you started off believing otherwise. Now stop, take a deep breath, relax, and wonder.... how much of you was formed because of incalcation? By repeatedly being told or saying the same things over and over again? Song lyrics? Pledges? Oaths? Family stories? Anecdotes? Bits of information? Where did these incalcations come from? Who created them? Who compelled you to devote them to rote? And why?

Now ask yourself this... How many of your passionate beliefs are there because they truly connected wtih you as a being - and how many might be there simply because incalcation placed them there and tricked you into becoming passionate about them?

~Continued...

Closing Thoughts

We live in a world that, day by day, becomes seemingly increasingly more and more insane. Thanks to 24 hour cable TV and high speed Internet access, we have an ability, that no previous generation possessed, to expose ourselves to information. To media. To ideas.

What effect is this having upon us?

Could it be that this information tsunami is actually causing a self-perpetuating form of ever increasing insanity? Could it be that our rapidly destabilizing world is in such a state because of the very fact that we can now obvserve the destabilization, in real time, and become so stressed out, ourselves, that we inadvertantly act to add to and perpetuate it?

I sincerely believe that the answer to these questions is a resounding "Affirmative". Instant information and constant exposure to negativity - combined with deliberate forms of incalcation is hurrying our sad little blue planet and our wonderful species headlong into the abyss at a rate so fast that nobody can possibly begin to calculate the numbers, much less predict the results. I believe that a handful of selfish people are using brainwashing techniques to effectively Jedi mind trick us into believing that "these aren't the droids we're looking for", so to speak. In their search to placate us, excuse their hidden personal agendas, and to convince us to part with our hard earned dollars, I believe that they are messing with forces that they do not understand.... the human psyche. And I think they are clueless as to the potential dangers inherent in such folly.

As we wander through life, we build up such tall, thick, and strong walls around our own definition of self. Our natural instincts seem to resist self-analysis and the idea of change.We react so violently and viscerally to the very idea of a paradigm change that, standing outside of it.... seeing others do it - can be quite revolting. And yet, still, we tend to be so quick to react the same way when our own ideals are confronted or questoined. I ask, could our passionate embrace of some things... our unflinching loyalty to what we perceive as "true" and as a deeply ingrained part of our very selves actually be alien to us and only engendered within us as a means of controlling us?

There are many noble beliefs to have, to be sure. I am not advocating for intellectual or emotional anarchy by any means. Nor am I seeking to judge any beliefs of convictions that you may have - nor asking to you to do so. What I am hoping is that I might intrigue you just enough that you might begin to question the very nature of how you question and to think about the very mechanisms of your own thought processes...

So, I ask you...Are your thoughts really your own? Are you brave and strong enough to examine all of them, critically, and to try and answer this question, to yourself, with honesty?"

Question everything - including the perspectives that you question from. Remember, truth possesses no prejudices and requires no secret wisdom or understanding to recognize. Truth simply is.

Once again, thanks for your time ATS.

~Heff

I was thinking of this topic yesterday myself and here you are, posting a thread just when Im checking the new posts on ATS. Synchronicity.

I would say education changes a persons perception in specific ways, and thereby also his thoughts about himself and the world. Every input (observation) goes through the filter of what he has been tought in the education system and during his life experience. All forms of education about the world are really perception filters. Without education, you have no reference as to what is possible. With education, the limits of what you think is possible is set by the education you recieve.

I have noticed that in general, the more formal education a person has, the less likely he is to think outside the box. Such a person often requires scientific evidence to accept something and is usually more guided by his mind than his heart when making decisions.

As humans, I believe we are supposed to be guided by out hearts first, and mind second. But some people use only mind. Its very intelligent to build an atom bomb, but its not very wise to do so if you have compassion for all people on the planet.

I have often thought about many of the points you made.

And for some reason it makes me want to have a kid. Which would completely screw up my Chi.
But to be able to create and mold a human being with no bias, prejudice, or silly notions of what should be.
A completely free thinking individual, who wasn't indoctrinated into one view or other. Who understands that there is no truth, there are no absolutes. I think that might be worth the inconvenience.

I don't know if I explained that properly, hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

Great thread Heff.

It's also very relevant to my own personal life at the moment, as I'm trying to discover "who I am".

Its occurred to me this year, I never really knew who I was, and I take it in future, ill be looking back on this very moment, a different person from that I am now.

Its something that troubles me, and yet something I look forward to.

I don't remember much of my childhood, or my teenage years. I've blocked most of it out completely. To this day, various friends talk about past instances, that I do not recall. Some of them haven't been very nice, and I've exclaimed "that can't be true, I'd never do that!". But they assure me I did.

Nothing too upsetting, I promise aha, but still very out of character from my self today.
Its goes as far as even reflecting upon this very month last year. Looking back, I would do things very differently.

Anyway, I can't change the past, I can only learn from it. Having contemplated this vigorously, the last several months, I'm confident I'm starting to understand the real me, and things can only improve from here.

When it comes to external influences that may alter my own behavior, or thoughts...
I can't really think of any.. I ignore the TV, I detest the very site of adds, and I'm open to having all of my beliefs challenged.

I think I've molded my self into a decent human being, although, I realise I still hold on to some grudges, and it may be some time until I can let them go.

I read somewhere once, they're are like seven layers to the mind, and you have to strip these layers back, to realise the true you. Unfortunately, I don't recall where that was to explore it further, I remember ego is one of those outer layers. I'm gradually breaking that barrier, but there's still contemplation to be done.

An interesting concept to ponder, I think, would be to imagine a world where we all had the ability to know what anyone around us is thinking and feeling at any given time.

(A very drastic change from now, I know).

Could you imagine how many impure thoughts, or embarrassing emotions you would try to hide in vain?
We currently project an image of our selves we wish others to see, whilst we also have daily conversions with our selves in our minds, and yet beyond that, there are some niggling little tid-bits beyond the voice in our heads.

Scenario:

"Morning Sinead"

"Morning Liz" (ahh fock off!)

That thought would be out in the open. No room to lie or pretend. And when you cannot lie to anyone, you finally have to give up, and stop lying to your self.

We would be forced to be honest at all times.

Fascinating IMO. Apparently that's what we've got to look forward to beyond this realm

Originally posted by Hefficide

We live in a world that, day by day, becomes seemingly increasingly more and more insane. Thanks to 24 hour cable TV and high speed Internet access, we have an ability, that no previous generation possessed, to expose ourselves to information. To media. To ideas.

What effect is this having upon us?

Well, I think a lot of us are adapting very quickly to accomodating and parsing that flow. Particularly those who take in most of their information through the internet- it's hard to stick to your own little informational backwater when you have access to such a rich variety of sources. Multiple sources of input with multiple biases leads to a direct engagement with one's own views and predjudices- a process that was far less likely to occur before the advent of the web.

Sure, a lot of those sources are bunk, but it looks like people are also becoming quicker to spot it when they are.

My manager is a proud conservative and a devout Catholic- she takes in her news via a wide spectrum of publications online, from the National to the Washington Post. I'm a Libertarian (I guess- that's what the online quiz told me anyway- and what better way to Know Thyself than through online quizzes?) Deist, so while she and I don't agree on many things, we exchange and discuss articles in a civil and highly enjoyable manner.

I respect and like who she is, and am secure in the knowledge that it's returned in kind. But that probably wouldn't be possible for either of us without the flexibility of perspective provided by broad reading.

Regardless of whether you were formed by your cultural imprinting, parental influence, genetics, whatever- it's okay to be who you are, as long as you're able to recognize that others being who they are (with all their biases, and denominations, and parties, and other demographic mishmash) doesn't undermine your identity in the least- and therefore shouldn't provoke a negative emotional response.

Question everything - including the perspectives that you question from. Remember, truth possesses no prejudices and requires no secret wisdom or understanding to recognize. Truth simply is.

reply to post by Hefficide

Hey, great thread, and great info and questions.
But this, above all else, really, got me.

What I got previously was nature vs. nurture, and I am not intending to degenerate your information by encapsulation, but add to that, then, bombardment, but outwardly obvious, ever present, overwhelming media chatter, and advertising, and otherwise, assailment....
and therefore, manipulation.....
and I have read your other thread which seeks to demonstrate said manipulation.

Having said all that, I would like to concur, nod, to all you have illustrated, but also to bring up, without hijacking your point, all the potential, hidden mind control technologies that exist out there. I recognize the logical safety of your presentation here, without getting into anything radical, and respect it, as this presentation is essential in our individual recognition of what is, to making the obvious case that needs to be made; but, I am adding this, not only because it is close to my heart, life, experience, and therefore, defining, to me personally, along with whatever I inherited and whatever ensued after, and all the "chatter" I endure as a human being hence, but also because it may help to save the ones who fall beside the wayside, thinking they are disenfranchised by their "crazy" experience that led them down the road to a place with labels that have left them in a place dismissed by others because of the applicable labels after they have fallen to what has occurred in their lives.....

And that being said and evoked, I come to your last words, so profound, that "the truth simply is."
Oh, I so wish it were so. For many of us, this, in and of itself, has been totally hijacked by every single thing you so eloquently outline here, and it is truly painful to some of us: the genetics, the environment and all that assails us within that, and all the other possibilities, therein, that make truth simply a construct of preference

Do you realize, I wonder, just the can of worms, that one part of your OP represents, in terms of just the genetics? I could invoke Hitler, Catholicism, Eugenics, all of which exemplify the argument of centuries and good and bad science relating to genetics......bad genes/vs./good genes......

Ahhh. truth. is it really so simple, after all.
Thanks for your thread.

Honorable Ancestor once say, "Suspicion often Father of Truth." We're all susceptible to one degree or another to the modalities you mention. Dialogue such as you've provided here, and in your other threads, addressing related subjects are wonderful tools for more cognitive awareness.

However, if suspicion begins at home---by looking into both heart and the cat in the mirror, I believe we are fully capable of coming to conclusions that aren't extremely biased by propaganda or group-think.

Another trick to avoid self-mind contamination is to call B.S. where we see it regardless of the consequences. Anything else make us a party to the very forces that would bend us. But that's only valid if we're much harder playing "devil's advocate" on ourselves than we are on others.

It's also revealing that many group-thinkers and those with compromised minds kick and fuss at these concepts. Why does it make some folk so mad?

Lastly, and I think related to this topic is the truism that, "The heart is deceitful above all things." Only when I question mine--and others--motives can I find some assurance that "truth" has meaning to me.

Another fine thread.

reply to post by Hefficide


Heffie, you going deep there. I liked your thoughts on the power of physic and the unknown synergistic effect when multiple physics align. Could be detrimental to the forces that molded, shaped, and brought us to who we are. And your call to self examination, reflection and a commitment to reasoned aware decision making, was spot on.

reply to post by Hefficide


Lights his pipe while leaning back in his chair fireside....

Well, I'll tell you Professor, it's like this.

Yes.

Introspectively speaking, I'm a result of all of the above and then some. All to varying degrees. I stop to contemplate myself and what I believe more often as I get older and gain experience. Some aspects of self have drastically changed over the years and others I've knowingly kept while still others I'm not aware of and probably go that way to my grave.

For me it's called simply being a human being trying to navigate this realm we call life.


Now.

Our next session will be Tuesday.

reply to post by tetra50


Absolutely, pre WW2 Germany ( and to actually be historically accurate most of Europe, though many parts had reformed, varyingly, prior to that point in time ) is an example of cultural identity and genetic identity being hijacked by indoctrination. What we now refer to as the Diaspora had created a population who were seen as outsiders and, therefore, easily persecuted or used as a handy tool for marshaling public opinion. A handy, all purpose villain that any leader with an agenda could use as the excuse. Just start a rumor of blood libel to agitate the masses and then say "I can fix this but I just need more taxes... power... freedom to rule". Hitler simply took this old, tried and true tactic and preexisting target group and applied industrial revolution principles to it. And he, arguably, nearly took over a large chunk of the world based upon a lie. All because cultural biases had been passed on from generation to generation.

And the funny part? We often refer to these types of biases as "common sense". I am embarrassed to say that my mother is an old woman from the south, and she often, when referring to black people, will make broad and general, sweeping accusations, and always follows them up with the phrase "everyone knows that, it's just common sense". It's sad. It may be common in her generation, or with certain types. But it is NOT sense.

"Freedom to rule" is a term I used above. Remember that phrase folks, because even in our "enlightened age" it's still being used to seize power and control. Sure, the words get mixed up a bit to be more palatable. but it happens. Since Congress is divided and deadlocked, I need the freedom of Executive order to get things done..." is the current format. But there are others.

General thoughts, not part of my reply to the above member

There are apparently a number of people who think I have an agenda for posting on ATS. I can't really address those accusations to any great degree because most of them violated T&C and were removed. But the two themes constant in them were that I am some sort of provocateur, sent to quell the revolution - or that I am such a megalomaniac that I can't stop typing for love of self.

I don't take these statements to heart very much. One or two attacks were so personal and rude that they hurt my feelings a bit. But oh well. Men shrug such things off. Throw some antibiotic cream on the wound and wrap in it duct tape. That's what I do. I do, however, respect those posts on one level. I always say QUESTION EVERYTHING. Of course that includes questioning what I say. I am a fallible human who is on the same journey that we all are, feeling my way through the dark and trying to get through.

If I post on a subject of seriousness all I'm trying to do is to call out in the dark to say "Hey I found a wall over here, and I'm going to feel my way down it to see if it leads anywhere.

Thus, don't believe me, don't even like me if you choose not to. But don't dismiss what I say offhand simply because it came from my keyboard.

~Heff

Marlon Brando said his acting teacher Stella Adler taught him:

"To be aware of your own feelings and how to access to them, the most important question is to ask yourself: do you really know what you know?"

Originally posted by YetSharkproof
Marlon Brando said his acting teacher Stella Adler taught him:

"To be aware of your own feelings and how to access to them, the most important question is to ask yourself: do you really know what you know?"

"I never wanted this for you Mike".

Anyway, we cant look for the "total man". One mans insensitivity/sensitivity can mean his salvation, but not anothers. One almost certainly has to understand, at some point, that they are a product and then make the decision to embrace or not.

Thats why I like Krishnamurti's teachings, he shows why its so important to exam self and the self thats examing self in order to let go of all that genetic babble. And then your on your own.

reply to post by 12MoonCats


Why would you be interested in this link? Is there any way you can message me? I've tried but haven't been able to. This is a good topic to cover however. It requires much self-awareness.

Purpose wrapped in flesh, is who we are. The reason for existence, is your purpose. Every person on this planet has a purpose....just like every apple tree bears fruit of apples and not oranges. Some of you "apple trees" are trying to produce a different type of fruit via your lifestyles.

How many of you are doing what you LOVE TO DO? And, why aren't you doing it??? That LOVE is your purpose! Your J.O.B. is just a distraction to keep you buried in bills, and away from the thing you LOVE TO DO

I used to believe something that me and my friend called 'Crossing the Line'.

The theory behind it was that everybody was born with the chance to separate from the rest of the 'crowd'. Take the knowledge given to us at a young age, and develop it into something more than just acceptance. To question what nobody else cared to question, to fight for what you believed in even if nobody previous believed in it with you. In other words, around toddler to pre-teen years, you either crossed the line and developed into your own personality completely distinct and unique, unlike anybody else. Or you didn't and held on to arrogant, or predetermined beliefs imposed on to you by those that came first - never really caring about the world, it's society, the people born on to it or the consequences of our actions, never questioning Why. A lower level of consciousness. Living life to a complete minimum of satisfaction and being completely content with the easy living.

I was about 14 when I firmly believed this was the way the world worked. But as I grew up, I found I couldn't categorize people into two different categories. That not everybody was going to fit into A and B.

There are some people I know that have so much thought potential, but have no care in the world to divulge into it. This I can't truly fathom, only that they were raised as such that there will never be a need for them to, nor should they care about their own intellectual well being. TO IMAGINE living such a ignorant life by choice, sickens me.

And yet people do it everyday.

And then there are those that act as if they don't care and then secretly do. Refusing to admit out loud their extremely thought-out ideas and dreams that make them who they are.

But then that's when I decided to stop trying to decipher why people were the way they were because after that - it all became way too confusing to decipher.

Yes, my thoughts are really my thoughts. Are your thoughts really your thoughts?

Anyone whose thoughts, or think that, their thoughts may not really be theirs... need medication and seek help very quickly.

I mean no disrespect as you are a forum moderator and I don't want to get banned,


But I'm serious...

Yes, your thoughts are your thoughts. Have a thought. Think about something simple. That's your thought.