I know, I know, another stupid question: Creating Energy?

First law of Thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system.

In order to create electricity we have to spin magnets very fast within a ring of wire. Right?

But where does this electricity come from if energy cannot be created? The wire is still wire and the magnets are still magnets. Do they lose any mass?

I know a magnet has electrons. Do these electrons pass through the wire to create electricity? If so, I've never heard of any engine that has a means of replacing those electrons in the magnets. Why not?

"we have to spin magnets very fast"
The energy comes from the mechanical work you put in.

Further, the magnets do work on the electrons in the conducting wire creating a current.

You are transferring your kinetic energy into electric energy. Think of it like this: suppose the magnet you are turning is a paddle wheel in the water. As you turn it, water is being moved by the paddle.

Now let's take it a little further. Suppose we take a pool in the shape of a doughnut and place the paddle in it. You will see the water spin around the ring as you spin the paddle. The side that the water is pushing towards would be the positive side on your wire and the other side would be the negative.

We're not done yet though. Let's suppose you placed a board in the water that stopped it from flowing around. You could still spin the paddle and the potential to make the water move would still be there (as long as you are spinning), but nothing else is happening. This is what is happening in an "open circuit" in electrical terms. Once you pull out that board, it is the same as splitting apart and connecting your wire together in your setup.

I hope this helps a little. Water is a good teaching tool to describe electricity and works very well to show lots of different properties that electricity has.

Originally posted by MeesterB
"we have to spin magnets very fast"
The energy comes from the mechanical work you put in.

Precisely. The OP's question only really becomes relevant when you ask where the Universe came from.

Originally posted by jiggerj
But where does this electricity come from if energy cannot be created?

There are two main sources of energy, and a third source is under development:

1. Solar, fusion from the sun (including fossil fuels which had solar energy as a source)
2. Nuclear fission
3. (under development) Tide power.

Even hydroelectric dams are solar powered. The sun evaporates water, the water falls as rain at high elevations, and as it falls in the dam it turns generators. Fossil fuels have solar energy stored in chemical form, such as coal and natural gas which are major sources used by power plants.

Nuclear fission is one of the few sources of energy we have that doesn't originate from the sun. (Really the only other major source).

The first two sources involve conversion of mass to energy, so mass is lost and energy is created, with a net zero gain or loss.

Tidal power doesn't generate much electricity, but it has the potential to and it's an independent source of power from the first two. Basically it's converting the rotational inertia of the Earth/moon system into electricity, slowing the rotation in the process. So again the electricity gained can never exceed what is lost in rotation.

I admit electronics in general fries my brain( Pun entirely intended). It's a pretty complex subject.

I am very likely wrong about this, so please, some one correct me if I am wrong. But my understanding is that.. When you spin a magnet within a ring of wire really fast...You're not creating electricity.... So much as you are...Collecting what is already all around us...

Again, please correct me if I am mistaken... This is one subject I have always struggled to understand...So, there is a huge chance I am way off and speaking complete nonsense.

reply to post by DirtyLiberalHippie

So much as you are...Collecting what is already all around us...

Essentially yes. There is a principal called conservation of energy and it allows you to convert one type of energy into another. The above situation works something like this. Chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy in your muscles as you move the magnet. The mechanical energy of your movement causes a change in magnetic flux as the magnet passes over the wire. This changing magnetic field "pushes" the electrons in the wire causing a flow of electrons which is called current. The moving electrons can then do work as "electricity." That's the super simplified explanation, but it's sound.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I know a magnet has electrons. Do these electrons pass through the wire to create electricity?

No.

If so, I've never heard of any engine that has a means of replacing those electrons in the magnets. Why not?

The moving magnets just cause the electrons in the wire to move around. The magnet doesn't lose any electrons.

reply to post by jiggerj


Sounds like Mechanical Energy from rotating the loop in a stationary mag field or
rotating a mag around a stationary loop gives you electrical energy.

A motor running on oil or Niagara Falls gives you the energy to move the magnets
or the loop.

Energy came from oil or Earth cosmic ecosystem (Niagara Falls water dropping potential)
is the energy source.

Energy in the environment is still the same as Tesla found in faster than speed of light
particles which the official story from science says no, no, no we don't have any to that.

Atomic energy from super fast flying particles may be fast approaching in the Lyne
Atomic Hydrogen Furnace that gives 1000x input heat with no loss of mass or consumed
material or anything burnt up except for the initial heat. Hopefully with feedback the
unit will keep on running and give a one time expenditure for the initial running start.

ED: OK I see your problem. Metal has free electrons that move back and forth making AC
electricity from the mag field motion.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by jiggerj
I know a magnet has electrons. Do these electrons pass through the wire to create electricity?

No.

If so, I've never heard of any engine that has a means of replacing those electrons in the magnets. Why not?

The moving magnets just cause the electrons in the wire to move around. The magnet doesn't lose any electrons.

Okay, next question: If magnets don't lose any electrons, then you know how we're burying spent radioactive fuels that will remain hazardous for 100,000 years? Well, where is this energy going that will make the fuel rods safer after that amount of time? I mean, how do the rods lose the radioactivity?

reply to post by jiggerj


Radioactive atoms are "too big" to hold together so parts break off and go shooting off as radiation. There are different types of radiation depending on how the radioactive element decays. Eventually enough parts fall off for it to be stable and no longer be radioactive.
Edit: for clarification, the energy gets shot into the earth basically. That's why people suggested burying it instead of letting the radioactive bits hit sensitive stuff like DNA.

And for reference, no electrons pass from the magnet to the wire, the magnetic field produced by the magnet pushes the electrons already in the conducting wire.
Also, you can only produce a current with a changing magnetic field.(stronger -> weaker or the other way around)

Originally posted by jiggerj
Okay, next question: If magnets don't lose any electrons, then you know how we're burying spent radioactive fuels that will remain hazardous for 100,000 years? Well, where is this energy going that will make the fuel rods safer after that amount of time? I mean, how do the rods lose the radioactivity?

Different radioactive materials have different half-lives. The half-life is a measure of how fast it loses its radioactivity, and yes some radioactive materials have long half lives, so long in fact that about half the internal heat in the Earth comes from radioactive decay of materials that have been inside the Earth for billions of years:

Earth Still Retains Much of Its Original Heat

A new study reveals that only about half of our planet's internal heat stems from natural radioactivity. The rest is primordial heat left over from when Earth first coalesced from a hot ball of gas, dust, and other material....

Earth's internal radioactivity and its primordial heat will both diminish in future years, Stevenson says. The planet is now cooling about 100°C every 1 billion years, so eventually, maybe several billions of years from now, the waning rays of a dying sun will shine down on a tectonically dead planet whose continents are frozen in place.

So when man buries radioactive materials, they will give off heat, but a small amount compared to the Earth's natural radioactive heat source.

Actually they would have given off heat anyway if man had never touched the materials, but it would have been more dispersed. The heat and radioactivity from our nuclear waste is in a more concentrated form due to man's refinement of the radioactive ore.

Long term management of waste

The time frame in question when dealing with radioactive waste ranges from 10,000 to 1,000,000 years,[42] according to studies based on the effect of estimated radiation doses.[43] Researchers suggest that forecasts of health detriment for such periods should be examined critically.[44] [45] Practical studies only consider up to 100 years as far as effective planning[46] and cost evaluations[47] are concerned.

How do you like the logic of doing a study that only considers the next 100 years, on something that will be hazardous for hundreds of thousands of years? In 2125 when the 100 years has passed and leakage or other storage problems are detected, our great grandkids are going to be asking "what were those idiots thinking?".

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
In 2125 when the 100 years has passed and leakage or other storage problems are detected, our great grandkids are going to be asking "what were those idiots thinking?".

edit on 21-9-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

Well, I'm thinking that now about the U.S. selling bonds to other countries (China, for instance). Bonds that have matured and those countries want their money now! What were those idiots thinking???

Originally posted by jiggerj
First law of Thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system.

In order to create electricity we have to spin magnets very fast within a ring of wire. Right?

But where does this electricity come from if energy cannot be created? The wire is still wire and the magnets are still magnets. Do they lose any mass?

I know a magnet has electrons. Do these electrons pass through the wire to create electricity? If so, I've never heard of any engine that has a means of replacing those electrons in the magnets. Why not?

edit on 9/20/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Just to clear up the magnet question, magnets are a form of stored energy. Magnets lose their magnetism. The more they use their magnetism the faster it is depleted. So sitting in a drawer somewhere it might stay magnetised for 100 years, being used to push another magnet it might only stay magnetic for 10 years.