Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

reply to post by dwarfflex


We know nothing about it. We're just arrogant enough to believe we do, and imaginative enough to envision it.

Scripture leaves no doubt about it.
It takes place post tribulation.

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Before. And even before Daniel's 70th week begins. You do realize the period of time labeled "great tribulation" is just the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. In John's vision of the Day of the Lord the church is present in heaven when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll and begins to loose it's seals starting Daniel's 70th week.

Originally posted by truejew
Scripture leaves no doubt about it.
It takes place post tribulation.

The churches in Revelation are symbolically represented by the candlesticks in John's vision in the book of Revelation. So where are those candlesticks when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll? On Earth or present in the throne room?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What if the seven seals represent the awakening of the chakras, rather than an actual physical event on Earth? We've been addicted to external stimuli, we can't imagine anything other than a physical, external phenomenon.

With that said, I believe the majority of human beings on earth to be completely unreliable when it comes to interpreting something that clearly transcends the physical world. We're just too deeply mired in the marvels of physical mastery.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Before. And even before Daniel's 70th week begins. You do realize the period of time labeled "great tribulation" is just the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. In John's vision of the Day of the Lord the church is present in heaven when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll and begins to loose it's seals starting Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel's 70th week has already happened. It began with the start of the ministry of Jesus.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Before. And even before Daniel's 70th week begins. You do realize the period of time labeled "great tribulation" is just the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. In John's vision of the Day of the Lord the church is present in heaven when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll and begins to loose it's seals starting Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel's 70th week has already happened. It began with the start of the ministry of Jesus.

I'd check Daniel 9 again. The events of the 70th week have not happened. John writes about that coming week in Revelation, penned in 95 AD.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What if the seven seals represent the awakening of the chakras, rather than an actual physical event on Earth? We've been addicted to external stimuli, we can't imagine anything other than a physical, external phenomenon.

With that said, I believe the majority of human beings on earth to be completely unreliable when it comes to interpreting something that clearly transcends the physical world. We're just too deeply mired in the marvels of physical mastery.

No, John wasn't writing about demonic Eastern philosophy. He was transported to the Day of the Lord and told to write everything he saw, heard, and felt.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
Scripture leaves no doubt about it.
It takes place post tribulation.

The churches in Revelation are symbolically represented by the candlesticks in John's vision in the book of Revelation. So where are those candlesticks when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll? On Earth or present in the throne room?

"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30 KJV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" does not take place before the tribulation of those days.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
Scripture leaves no doubt about it.
It takes place post tribulation.

The churches in Revelation are symbolically represented by the candlesticks in John's vision in the book of Revelation. So where are those candlesticks when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll? On Earth or present in the throne room?

"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30 KJV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" does not take place before the tribulation of those days.

Okay, lets try some contextual theology. The first rule of Biblical hermeneutics is to always account for historical and cultural context. Rule #1. Who was Christ addressing in Matthew 24? Jews or Christians? And is that verse talking about the rapture or the 2nd advent of Christ. Is Christ coming to Earth in that passage or just the heavens, and will all people see the event or just His own?

Secondly, that verse didn't even come close to answering my post about Revelation. The mystery of the rapture wasn't even revealed yet at the time Christ was speaking in Matthew 24.

Since most "Christians" have done nothing to stop wars, famine and general grief of the rest of humanity. They have also taken horrible care of their "Fathers" house with little or no regard for the eventual return. Doing things like supporting the strip mining whole sale rape and reaping of the earth, it’s resources and life!

They have the nerve to then say, we will disappear in the blink of an eye to avoid all of what they have sown? No there are very few who will escape this.

I vote after the great tribulation!

Why should they miss out on all the fun, buy only choosing to believe in Christ yet not heeding the words he spoke, nor being good stewards of the lords creation….

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Before. And even before Daniel's 70th week begins. You do realize the period of time labeled "great tribulation" is just the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. In John's vision of the Day of the Lord the church is present in heaven when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll and begins to loose it's seals starting Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel's 70th week has already happened. It began with the start of the ministry of Jesus.

I'd check Daniel 9 again. The events of the 70th week have not happened. John writes about that coming week in Revelation, penned in 95 AD.

You should recheck Daniel 9 again. It says that Messieh will be cut off in the middle of the 70th week. The anti-christ will have a counterfeit 70th week in the end times, but the real Messieh and 70th week has already come.

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Surely you know about John Darby? I made a post here on this a few years ago, and thought it was common knowledge here at ATS.

The Rapture Doctrine
(Bold Text Mine)

The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or "catching away" was an important part of Darby's teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the "rapture" had made its way to the United States.

In the late 1800's, America was fertile ground for a wide variety of religious extremists, most notably the Adventist movements. These movements, which produced new denominations, sects, and cults, almost always had as one of their chief tenets the belief that Christ was going to return to earth "very soon" and that they could tell you when. As the eschatological and apocalyptic teachings of the Plymouth Brethren entered this mix of religious fervor, some of their teachings became a permanent fixture within the newly formed sects. Among the many heresies of the "brethren" the Rapture was the most successful. It even went on to affect millions of people in denominations which had not yet been formed. Two examples of this are the Assemblies of God and the United Pentecostal Church which were not founded until early in the 20th century. At about this same time the Rapture made its way into the theology of the Southern Baptist Church, which had not previously known of the teaching.

Today, prophecy pundits and "end-time" revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even "end-time" heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millenialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.

source

So, to sum up, the "Rapture" as seen my, and believed in by Christians ever since Darby, will not happen. No one is going to save you! That is your own job, and your own purpose. Learn how to save yourself, or perish and have your Soul recycled. My Soul is prepared. How's yours?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Okay, lets try some contextual theology. The first rule of Biblical hermeneutics is to always account for historical and cultural context.

I thought it was to not talk about Biblical hermeneutics.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Rule #1. Who was Christ addressing in Matthew 24? Jews or Christians?

Both.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And is that verse talking about the rapture or the 2nd advent of Christ.

Both happen at the same time.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Is Christ coming to Earth in that passage or just the heavens, and will all people see the event or just His own?

He will be on His way to Earth when His own will see Him and be caught up to meet Him in the air. Then the Church will turn around and come the rest of the way back with Christ.

false hope.

All religion does is keeping us from the truth.

Many religous people don't really care much about this life because they ''know'' they will go to a place where everything is perfect and all problems are gone.

Sorry to say this, but the cold hard truth is

you are here, you are now, there is no afterlife. Don't waste it, instead, make it useful, and give mankind hope as a species.

reply to post by truejew


1. Hermeneutics are vital to sound exegesis.
2. No, in Matthew 24 Christ is addressing Jews, that's the "cultural context" of that chapter.
3. The 2nd advent and the rapture are not the same thing. During the rapture He comes in the air and takes His bride for the marriage supper. At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, the church/Ekklesia. At the rapture only His own will see Him. At he 2nd Advent He comes WITH His bride, the entire world will see Him return in glory.
4. You did not take into account when Christ was speaking the mystery of the rapture wasn't presented to man yet. Paul revealed the mystery of the rapture. Key to note is "mystery" in the Greek is "musterion". It's quite different than "mystery" in English which means some enigmatic thing that's difficult to understand. Musterion in Greek means "something previously unrevealed is now being made known." It's akin to telling someone a password to a computer or combination to a safe. "Secret" would be a good 20th century synonym for the Greek "musterion". With that said, I reiterate that the mystery of the rapture wasn't made known yet during Christ's ministry. Paul received and revealed that revelation first.

When you look at the Bible verses on the Rapture — John 14:1-14, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 — and then you look at other verses that talk about the Second Coming — Zechariah 14:1-12, Jesus' account in Matthew 24:29-31 and in Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-27, and Revelation 19 — when compared they tell a different story. We go into reading these verses as if they are supposed to be all about the Second Coming, but discover there is a vast difference between the two accounts.

Source.

reply to post by autowrench


John Darby and Ms. MacDonald popularized the teaching, they didn't invent it. It's quite deceptive you would continue to mention that considering you have been corrected numerous times.

reply to post by dwarfflex

Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Seeing how the tribulation happened in 70 AD, any possible rapture would be post-tribulation.
I would offer the interpretation of the only actual description of a future rapture in the Bible (1 Thess.) as being a hypothetical situation which would not be any concern for us since it is not likely to ever happen in our lifetimes.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

John Darby and Ms. MacDonald popularized the teaching, they didn't invent it.

Darby made it into a doctrine, then built an entire theology around it, then actively promoted it with big money backing, most likely rich Zionists who saw the theories as supporting their planned future take-over of Jerusalem.