Did the Romans invent Jesus ?

Originally posted by HamrHeed
Did the romans invent jesus. LOL!

Sorry,. Just trying to understand what you're implying here..
So the romans wrote a book against their will, condemning their own ways?
Learn me.

As I've said earlier, Jesus, maybe not.

Christianity, maybe yes because the modern doctrines of orthodox Christianity today (Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc..) is excellent for population control...

Christians feed the world economy, they are subservient to authorities, they are very clean, mmmm! they would throw you a bread made of flour if you throw stones at them...

On the other hand, Jesus doesn't pay taxes and doesn't help the economy at all because he doesn't work for a living! Jesus doesn't honor authorities. He did not honor/respect the Pharisian elders, and Roman authorities. Jesus doesn't wash his hands! He did not throw his enemies a bread made of flour but rather a sharp sword of the Word of God which Jesus alternately calls the 'Bread of Life' which apparently insulted them!

If Jesus were to come today, he's not your average suburban, middle class guy. He's the ragged, stinky man at the street corner carrying placards, hurling insults to your leaders, to your pastors, to your white collar workers, not paying taxes, terrorizing church vendors.

He's the guy you will HATE for being a burden to society and indeed Jesus is for he is not friends with the world. He is the enemy of the world. He is the enemy of the clean cut Christians if they will never change!

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by HamrHeed
Did the romans invent jesus. LOL!

Sorry,. Just trying to understand what you're implying here..
So the romans wrote a book against their will, condemning their own ways?
Learn me.

As I've said earlier, Jesus, maybe not.

Christianity, maybe yes because the modern doctrines of orthodox Christianity today (Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc..) is excellent for population control...

Christians feed the world economy, they are subservient to authorities, they are very clean, mmmm! they would throw you a bread made of flour if you throw stones at them...

On the other hand, Jesus doesn't pay taxes and doesn't help the economy at all because he doesn't work for a living! Jesus doesn't honor authorities. He did not honor/respect the Pharisian elders, and Roman authorities. Jesus doesn't wash his hands! He did not throw his enemies a bread made of flour but rather a sharp sword of the Word of God which Jesus alternately calls the 'Bread of Life' which apparently insulted them!

If Jesus were to come today, he's not your average suburban, middle class guy. He's the ragged, stinky man at the street corner carrying placards, hurling insults to your leaders, to your pastors, to your white collar workers, not paying taxes, terrorizing church vendors.

He's the guy you will HATE for being a burden to society and indeed Jesus is for he is not friends with the world. He is the enemy of the world. He is the enemy of the clean cut Christians if they will never change!

Sounds like newage tripe to me. You claiming that "clean cut" people will be cast out of favor is ironic at best.
Many middle class and upper class GIVE away alot of their wealth.
The father reaches every corner of the market, not just people with wealth or lack thereof.
Please, stop trying to define what we believe if you haven't read or studied our methods

After Jesus ascended and the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, many came to faith in Jesus, not long after the early church from the Jewish elders the roman empire Nero came under tremendous persecution, many tortured, burned, killed, imprisoned, gladiator rings thrown to lions , before Constantine declared christianity a state religion, and later Rome hi jacked christianity


en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Originally posted by mardukiscoming
Jesus did not found the Christian religion.Jesus was a Jew.His family and followers invented the Christian faith as a moneymaking venture.Oh,and to spread his teachings,too,I guess.Seems to have worked.2000 years later and people still won't shut up about him.

Jesus was a jew? By birth yes, but the old religion is defined as "a stumbling block" or has that implication by way of the new testament teachings.

The jews offered him up (as was predicted) to be executed by the romans when people started confessing that he performed miracles and spoke with infallibility.
To claim to be god, back in those times was punishable by death.

edit on 12-9-2012 by HamrHeed because: (no reason given)

I love your post, It brings the whole Roman view into perspective. Pontius Pilate is my favorite character in the entire New Testament. Just imagine...You're a freaking Governor with the full power and authority of the ROMAN EMPIRE, BUT you've been assigned some backwoods place full of religious fanatics...kinda like modern day Kansas. He NEVER wanted to kill Jesus. He seemed intrigued by him more than anything, at least in my reading and interpretation, and seemed to almost feel it was a waste to kill him, but had to appease the populace and de facto religious leaders. I think he almost admired him for his action in the Temple which REALLY ticked off all of those bungholes who were duping the people into buying overpriced doves for sacrifice. If you've ever seen the original "Conan the Barbarian", just imagine the scene where Thulsa Doom confronts Conan before condemning him to "the tree of woe", but Pilate had even more respect and simply washed his hands...but I could totally seem him saying "what a waste".

Originally posted by dwarfflex
After Jesus ascended and the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, many came to faith in Jesus, not long after the early church from the Jewish elders the roman empire Nero came under tremendous persecution, many tortured, burned, killed, imprisoned, gladiator rings thrown to lions , before Constantine declared christianity a state religion, and later Rome hi jacked christianity


en.wikipedia.org...

Many came to faith in the mystery religions, like Mithras worship, and then simply replaced Mithras with Jesus...no spirits involved. They practiced in secret because it was cool, a lot like being a Mason or a member of another "secret" society. Nero had little to no authority outside of his Rome...the generals and regional governors held the power in the eastern Mediterranean. Rome didn't so much as "hijack" Christianity later. Instead, it used it as tool to help control the populace by letting everyone in the "secret" club.

Originally posted by HamrHeed
Sounds like newage tripe to me. You claiming that "clean cut" people will be cast out of favor is ironic at best.
Many middle class and upper class GIVE away alot of their wealth.
The father reaches every corner of the market, not just people with wealth or lack thereof.
Please, stop trying to define what we believe if you haven't read or studied our methods

I used to be a Pentecostal/Evangelical Christian for two decades.

I've been to many countries, rich and poor, many churches within those countries. I have lived with Christian families in these countries as well, both rich and poor.

I'm not the average Sunday goer. I went to street crusades, interacted with pastors in Bible Studies.

The middle and upper class don't give away a lot of their wealth. They only give 10%. They can't even think of doing what Jesus commanded to all of us. They can't even pray for God to make it possible. Instead, they always pray for better jobs, better grades at school, better (worldly) opportunities, win this and that, financial stability, good health and long life and bless their family. Sounds familiar??

Do you ever pray for God to open doors for you to send you where the Gospel is never been preached yet? Because it's in war, or very very poor, etc... You reason, it's not God's will for me. Others are more qualified. I got family. I got this great job. I can't die, I have kids... ....Like I never heard those excuses before! Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to all creatures to the ends of the Earth, making disciples of all nations...

Love your family more than Jesus, you are not worthy of him! Find your life and you will lose it!

Nono I don't mean most give away their wealth by choice..
Do you know how much goes into "foreign aid"?? From "Christian" countries who, are lead by people who mock the faith?

I think stealing from people trying to make a life for themselves is a hinderance to development.
I mean, not even half of americans pay income tax.Not saying it's fair, it's just a proof that the system isn't working as intended

reply to post by dwarfflex


From Romans themselves.....
Tacitus

15.44.2. But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. 15.44.3. The originator of this name, Christ, was sentenced to torture by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.

This is the original Latin

From Annal 15:44 15.44.2. Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. Ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. 15.44.3. Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta mundique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque

For the Roman pagans to invent Jesus and say exactly where the religion originated as the Bible indicates, would seem to indicate in his own words that the religion of Jesus was something not invented by Romans.

Whereas Tacitus is not saying Jesus, it is apparent in his writing that the religion originated in Judea around the central figure known as Christ. This Christ was living in the time and punished by Pontius Pilate. So no, there was no Roman invention of Jesus. This is where most people get their arguments, from people such as Gordon Stein.

Gordon Stein denied the authenticity of this passage, arguing: (1) there is no corroborating evidence that Nero persecuted the Christians; (2) there was not a multitude of Christians in Rome at that date; (3) 'Christian' was not a common term in the first century; (4) Nero was indifferent to various religions in his city; (5) Nero did not start the fire in Rome; (6) Tacitus does not use the name Jesus; (7) Tacitus assumes his readers know Pontius Pilate; (8) the passage is present word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus. However, Stein's arguments are extremely weak. At best, (1), (2), and (5) only cast doubt on the reliability of the passage; these are not good reasons for rejecting the authenticity of the passage. (3) and (4) are likewise irrelevant. Contrary to what Stein claims, (6) and (7) suggest that Pontius Pilate might have been relatively unknown. Finally, (8) is irrelevant

There was corroborating evidence that Nero was indeed torturing groups of people. The Bible indicates that Paul was writing to churches in Rome and that he himself was unjustly punished against Roman law, as he was a Roman citizen.

What we are left with is this, a central figure called Christ was put to death by a Roman government official and that Roman official is found written in secular Roman sources as well as the Bible indicates that it was impossible for the Romans to merely invent Jesus.

Originally posted by the owlbear

Originally posted by dwarfflex
After Jesus ascended and the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, many came to faith in Jesus, not long after the early church from the Jewish elders the roman empire Nero came under tremendous persecution, many tortured, burned, killed, imprisoned, gladiator rings thrown to lions , before Constantine declared christianity a state religion, and later Rome hi jacked christianity


en.wikipedia.org...

Many came to faith in the mystery religions, like Mithras worship, and then simply replaced Mithras with Jesus...no spirits involved. They practiced in secret because it was cool, a lot like being a Mason or a member of another "secret" society. Nero had little to no authority outside of his Rome...the generals and regional governors held the power in the eastern Mediterranean. Rome didn't so much as "hijack" Christianity later. Instead, it used it as tool to help control the populace by letting everyone in the "secret" club.

Mithras was actually a Persian idea adopted by the Romans. But it still begs the question, if Jesus were nothing more than a pagan myth, why did the pagan Romans and Greeks, for that matter, not accept Jesus as another one of their gods? They never recognized Jesus as such, so until you can answer why the Romans and Greeks never recognized it in their lifetime then I think it is intellectually dishonest to propose such an idea.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by the owlbear

Originally posted by dwarfflex
After Jesus ascended and the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, many came to faith in Jesus, not long after the early church from the Jewish elders the roman empire Nero came under tremendous persecution, many tortured, burned, killed, imprisoned, gladiator rings thrown to lions , before Constantine declared christianity a state religion, and later Rome hi jacked christianity


en.wikipedia.org...

Many came to faith in the mystery religions, like Mithras worship, and then simply replaced Mithras with Jesus...no spirits involved. They practiced in secret because it was cool, a lot like being a Mason or a member of another "secret" society. Nero had little to no authority outside of his Rome...the generals and regional governors held the power in the eastern Mediterranean. Rome didn't so much as "hijack" Christianity later. Instead, it used it as tool to help control the populace by letting everyone in the "secret" club.

Mithras was actually a Persian idea adopted by the Romans. But it still begs the question, if Jesus were nothing more than a pagan myth, why did the pagan Romans and Greeks, for that matter, not accept Jesus as another one of their gods? They never recognized Jesus as such, so until you can answer why the Romans and Greeks never recognized it in their lifetime then I think it is intellectually dishonest to propose such an idea.

He loved the Romans alot and even sent messages to them so they wouldn't forget in their hearts.
There is a better day upon us all

No.

And no.


Both of those "no's" being of the negative persuasion.

As in, "not".

Also known as "no".

Non Biblical evidence of Jesus, raisers some good points


www.youtube.com...




as for icke and others Jesus never existed anti christ spirit , Jesus was an invention of Rome

the words confessing them selves wise, but became fools comes to mind.

Archaeological evidence of Jesus


www.youtube.com...

reply to post by ahnggk

On the other hand, Jesus doesn't pay taxes and doesn't help the economy at all because he doesn't work for a living! Jesus doesn't honor authorities. He did not honor/respect the Pharisian elders, and Roman authorities. Jesus doesn't wash his hands! He did not throw his enemies a bread made of flour but rather a sharp sword of the Word of God which Jesus alternately calls the 'Bread of Life' which apparently insulted them!

You apparently never read:

Luke 20:20-25

The Pharisees: Is It Lawful to Pay Taxes to Caesar?
20 So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, that they might seize on His words, in order to deliver Him to the power and the authority of the governor.

21 Then they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You say and teach rightly, and You do not show personal favoritism, but teach the way of God in truth: 22 Is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”

23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said to them, “Why do you test Me?[d] 24 Show Me a denarius. Whose image and inscription does it have?”

They answered and said, “Caesar’s.”

25 And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

Jesus never said not to pay taxes, so it's mighty presumptious to say he never paid taxes. When the Romans conquered an area they left the religious systems in place to soothe the populace and to keep rebellion down if those nations surrendered without a fight. In exchange the people pledged to obey roman law. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesars", if Jesus didn't practice what he preached it would make him a liar and a hypocrite like the pharisees, so you might want to rethink saying he never paid taxes lest you call him a liar yourself.

reply to post by the owlbear

I love your post, It brings the whole Roman view into perspective. Pontius Pilate is my favorite character in the entire New Testament. Just imagine...You're a freaking Governor with the full power and authority of the ROMAN EMPIRE, BUT you've been assigned some backwoods place full of religious fanatics...kinda like modern day Kansas. He NEVER wanted to kill Jesus. He seemed intrigued by him more than anything, at least in my reading and interpretation, and seemed to almost feel it was a waste to kill him, but had to appease the populace and de facto religious leaders. I think he almost admired him for his action in the Temple which REALLY ticked off all of those bungholes who were duping the people into buying overpriced doves for sacrifice. If you've ever seen the original "Conan the Barbarian", just imagine the scene where Thulsa Doom confronts Conan before condemning him to "the tree of woe", but Pilate had even more respect and simply washed his hands...but I could totally seem him saying "what a waste".

Right! The Roman's loved Jesus and all that he stood for.

The wind is taken out of the impact of the crucifixion of Jesus when we learn of the "Siege of Jerusalem" in 70ad. According to Josephus, the Romans turned the hills surrounding Jerusalem into forests of "crucifixes" and crucified 6,000 Jews because they refused to render unto Caesar what was Caesars. What a waste indeed.

If "Cannibal Mary" had taken her wealth and bought food for the poor and starving people, and opened her home up as a kinda soup kitchen, as Jesus instructed people to do, we wouldn't have such a demented satire, which Rome could use to dehumanize the Jewish religion.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by the owlbear

 

I love your post, It brings the whole Roman view into perspective. Pontius Pilate is my favorite character in the entire New Testament. Just imagine...You're a freaking Governor with the full power and authority of the ROMAN EMPIRE, BUT you've been assigned some backwoods place full of religious fanatics...kinda like modern day Kansas. He NEVER wanted to kill Jesus. He seemed intrigued by him more than anything, at least in my reading and interpretation, and seemed to almost feel it was a waste to kill him, but had to appease the populace and de facto religious leaders. I think he almost admired him for his action in the Temple which REALLY ticked off all of those bungholes who were duping the people into buying overpriced doves for sacrifice. If you've ever seen the original "Conan the Barbarian", just imagine the scene where Thulsa Doom confronts Conan before condemning him to "the tree of woe", but Pilate had even more respect and simply washed his hands...but I could totally seem him saying "what a waste".

Right! The Roman's loved Jesus and all that he stood for.

The wind is taken out of the impact of the crucifixion of Jesus when we learn of the "Siege of Jerusalem" in 70ad. According to Josephus, the Romans turned the hills surrounding Jerusalem into forests of "crucifixes" and crucified 6,000 Jews because they refused to render unto Caesar what was Caesars. What a waste indeed.

If "Cannibal Mary" had taken her wealth and bought food for the poor and starving people, and opened her home up as a kinda soup kitchen, as Jesus instructed people to do, we wouldn't have such a demented satire, which Rome could use to dehumanize the Jewish religion.

Just Curious...who is Cannibal Mary?

reply to post by the owlbear


This link describes it quite well.

reply to post by the owlbear


www.rjgeib.com...

Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food. In the end they were eating belts and shoes, and the leather stripped off their shields. Tufts of withered grass were devoured, and sold in little bundles for four drachmas.

Among the residents of the region beyond Jordan was a woman called Mary, daughter of Eleazar, of the village of Bethezuba (the name means "House of Hyssop"). She was well off, and of good family, and had fled to Jerusalem with her relatives, where she became involved with the siege. Most of the property she had packed up and brought with her from Peraea had been plundered by the tyrants [Simon and John, leaders of the Jewish war-effort], and the rest of her treasure, together with such foods as she had been able to procure, was being carried by their henchmen in their daily raids. In her bitter resentment the poor woman cursed and abused these extortioners, and this incensed them against her. However, no one put her to death either from exasperation or pity.

She grew weary of trying to find food for her kinsfolk. In any case, it was by now impossible to get any, wherever you tried. Famine gnawed at her vitals, and the fire of rage was ever fiercer than famine. So, driven by fury and want, she committed a crime against nature. Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both.

Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves.

reply to post by windword

Well, that's a happy little tale that I am surprised I never came across in my study of evolution of religious thought from prehellenistic times through Christianity and Islam. Damn, I'm going to have nightmares now...Thank you for that. The Story not the Nightmares.

reply to post by the owlbear


Happy to haunt.....I mean help!