New Testament Fairy Tales

reply to post by Unity_99


I'm sorry Unity, I cannot subscribe to that assertion.

When egg and sperm unite, the potential to be a new life begins.

I cannot compromise on this fact. To do so would be a slippery slope that I am not willing to travel down.

I am confident and knowing truth is where I would rather err on the side of caution than err on the side of being wrong.

I'm sorry but I cannot subscribe to that interpretation where life begins with consciousness, because without the "seed" to grow into a tree, there can be no fruit to come of it.

No compromises.

reply to post by trekwebmaster


Yeah, I debated that in school. If it grows, it's alive.

Have you ever wondered if maybe we are truly fallen consciousness that is trying to get back to.....

At- one- ment?

I believe so and think this is why Jesus shows us the way to atonement. He did it, had to do it, and we do too.

reply to post by MamaJ


But how can we find at-one-ment if we are constantly dividing ourselves from one another in an effort to make ourselves feel better about what we've done with the world?

We have to accept the past in order to embrace the present and change the future. Half of our race isn't willing to open its eyes yet, and the other half is busy convincing itself that its eyes are already open.

We have to stop lying to ourselves before we can do anything else.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
And there is really not that much difference fundamentally from the Catholics or the Lutherans. At least to me there is not.

There are HUGE differences between the Lutheran and Catholic faiths, and it would take days to go over them all. Just to list a few of the biggies off the top of my head.

1) Salvation through grace vs Salvation through faith and works.
2) Teaching in a loving God vs an angry God.
3) Belief in the Bible alone vs Belief in the Bible and Church Tradition (aka Roman Pagan tradition)
4) The use of intercessionaries, eg... Prayer to saints, Mary, etc.
5) Consubstantiation vs transubstantiation.
6) Purgatory.

These are but just a few of the bigger issues, there are thousands more...
As a matter of fact, in case you also missed it, Lutherans believe that the “little horn”, one of the Antichrists is found in the person of the Pontifex Maximus, or the Holy Pontiff. All by itself that should tell you that there is a MAJOR difference between these two faiths.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
They are both very ritualistic and don't allow you to ask questions.

I never had too much problem with asking any questions in the Lutheran Church, though sometimes I found that the people I was asking didn't have an answer and would fall back on the cliche that you have to have “faith”.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
Instead of Religion I've found that if I nurture my own personal relationship with God it is much better for me spiritually. But many people don't seem to know that they can do this. They feel that church is the only way to go because thats what they have been told their whole lives. If thats what works for you then good for you. It does'nt work for me however. My church is on the porch with my coffee in the mornings. I don't have to be judged, give money to anyone, confess my sins to anyone and God listens to me just as much as he does anyone else that seeks him.

As long as you realize that you are not gaining salvation through your own “works”, and that it still comes through Christ and the Holy Spirit, then I guess that there is nothing wrong with this. As a Christian though, you should want to have other Christian fellowship.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
And I do believe that I am ultimately in control of my Salvation. If I turn away from God, then I will suffer an existence without him. As long as i want to be with God however, he will never ever turn me away.

As long as you remember:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation does not come from you, it can only come from God...

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
Thats another problem I have with the church in general. They say that God has a special place for all the sinners who do evil, full of fire and brimstone and suffering where he will send you for all eternity to burn in fire 7 times hotter than the hottest flame on earth........but he loves you......lol.

This is a product of the Roman Catholic Church through much of the Middle ages. Most of the imagery of hell comes from this, there is very little of it in the actual Bible itself. You might also enjoy reading the 'Apocalypse of Peter', which several of the Church fathers believed was divinely inspired.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Glad to see you took my advice

If I may add: Read it with an open mind. Try to see what the core message being presented is. It is (in my humble view), worthwhile. I would suggest that the world would be a far better place if more people took it to heart

What good is the core message if the means of presenting it is an outright lie? The core message is one that anyone, of any faith, or any non-faith can say. Here is the message: Be nice.

Okay, fine. But if someone steals my coat and I do nothing, then someone (or the same person) will then steal my wallet, shoes, car, hat... If we turn the other cheek, the little bullies in school will drive our children to suicide.

There's a big difference between sacrificing for others and being a door mat.

I don't believe that to be the core message at all (although it is certainly a virtue that is taught in the NT). To me, the core message is that all people are flawed (Christians included). But God loved us enough to offer us mercy and forgiveness through the sacrifice he paid at Calvary.

It is often over looked by people on the outside looking in (heck it's often missed by Christians themselves). I'm not sure I really understood that idea or could wrap my mind around it fully until I had a child. The core message of the NT is (in my own opinion) one of grace and mercy. There is certainly a lot of other principles, ideas, and virtues discussed and taught, but ultimately the fundamental message is one of love.

Edit to add:

I really appreciate the character you've shown in this thread, Jigger. I respect you immensely for being able to discuss this subject with civility with so many people of faith who don't necessarily share your opinions. Cheers

reply to post by defcon5


That's probably what started Reformation...ie attonement through works gives grace and salvation...pershaps is a better way of reconciling the difference.

In the KJV, there is a passage that says never trust the Papacy but only the scriptures, Not even trust another man, but you can tell by works or fruit.

I think it is more than all of these, neither one being the Tower of Babel which will allow us to reach God, but why even build a tower in the first place, the temptation to "be as God" would perhaps corrupt it?

When God is everywhere, why waste time, it seems as a task of utter futility.

But on the converse, that neither disputes man being made in the Image of God, so that tells me something. Perhaps knowing truth and good doesn't need those denominations. Perhaps those are the places to receive milk instead of meat, which doesn't need a church. Everything has a purpose i suppose...

Even illusion...

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
reply to post by jiggerj

 

True charity begins at home where the heart is. Giving charity to another as giving a dollar to someone who is in need is true charity, since you saw him or her needing it in person.

If you give to an organization to feed the poor souls in diverse places of the world, that is not charity, that's giving your money to an organization that may or may not use it in the right or true way. Only yourself can judge what is true charity and what isn't.

What's worse is if you see and recognize a person needs charity and do not act, that is horrible, and you'll have to judge that for yourselves. Don't be a bystander, be a person, be truth. Take the sayings Jesus gave you and "Be a Jesus" to someone else who needs it. That's what it's all about...simple and unconditional love.

Everything you say is true, Trek, but then you have to refer your wisdom back to the bible. Why do we have to be like Jesus to do something good and wholesome and right? Why can't we simply understand that we would want compassion if we were in need, so we help those less fortunate to help them and to feel good about ourselves?

I would love to find someone who dedicated their life to god and to helping others in some desperate place in the world, and come up with indisputable proof that no god exists. Then ask this person if they would stop dedicating his/her life to these impoverished. I'm pretty sure this type of person would continue. Why? Because they're not god people, but GOOD people.

reply to post by MamaJ


I have felt that most intensely when I pondered being desolate - de - of - sol - one - ate being.

It is most horrible feeling which left me feeling unworthy, but then I knew I was worthy and it became as a constant reminder of how horrible that moment must have been for God and the fallen ones. Plus combined with the fact that God didn't give up on us, he broke his back bending over giving all and still giving to provide us a way out...that's very unconditional and not hellfire and brimstone. Sometimes I think God gave everything except the Holy Spirit, he sacrificed His own self metaphorically and literally with His only begotten Son to give us another chance and how is it that we refuse this kind of unconditional love, those which do must seem to me like inhuman and innately evil. I cannot ignore this kind of sacrifice, it only draws me closer...and I tell Him daily sometime more than once daily that I love Him...and hurt because of all the sacrifices He endured to save our pitiful human pieces of flesh which live in His Image or die without it....

reply to post by jiggerj


It's hard to ask a socialist survival society to be compassionate...now imagine asking them to balance compassion and wisdom.

You're asking a fish to play a piano. You have to get it out of the water first.

reply to post by jiggerj


well if God thought of "letting there be light" and didn't speak the words, would we be sitting here typing them? lol

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
That's probably what started Reformation...ie attonement through works gives grace and salvation...pershaps is a better way of reconciling the difference.

The reformation started not because Luther wanted to start a schism in the church, but rather because he wanted to reform it. It came to a head when the church decided to send indulgence sellers, mainly John Tetzel, into German territory in an attempt to get funding for St Peter's Basilica. This resulted in the 95 theses, which were intended to cause reform about topics that not only Luther, but other Catholic theologians, had issues with. The church exerted its authority, attempted to have Luther silenced via the Inquisition, and basically started the Reformation.

The root of the issue with the selling of indulgences, however, is in fact what you say. Its an issue of salvation through works vs grace. The bible is crystal clear on this subject, salvation comes through grace alone, period. A Christian should want to do works, and they do have merit in heaven, but they are not a requirement for salvation.

If they were, what would you say to someone who could not do works? Say someone that is paralyzed for life? That spent their life In isolation? Mentally handicapped? Their salvation is not determined by this, but solely on the basis of their belief in Christ, and acceptance of his grace.

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
In the KJV, there is a passage that says never trust the Papacy but only the scriptures, Not even trust another man, but you can tell by works or fruit.

I'm unaware of the Papacy being directly mentioned in the Bible, as it didn't exist at the time of its writing. However, the station of the “Pontifex Maximus” is indirectly mentioned in the prophecies of books such as Daniel (which can be ascertained by the powers granted to him). Pontifex Maximus was a Roman Title, normally held by the Emperors, until Emperor Gratian surrendered it as “unbefitting a christian”. It was taken over by, the then Bishop of Rome, Damasus I.

If you found some Bible that specifically mentions the 'Papacy', I'd be interested to know what it was.

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
I think it is more than all of these, neither one being the Tower of Babel which will allow us to reach God, but why even build a tower in the first place, the temptation to "be as God" would perhaps corrupt it?
When God is everywhere, why waste time, it seems as a task of utter futility.

You're losing me a bit here, but reaching God is a simple matter of acceptance of his grace. The point of the Tower of Babel was not to simply reach God, but rather mans trying to show superiority to God.

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
But on the converse, that neither disputes man being made in the Image of God, so that tells me something.

Being made in the image of God means that you have a soul, and the capacity for the 'Word'. The topic of the 'Word' or being in the 'Image of God' is a very complex subject, and beyond what I have time to go into ATM. Just to give an indication of why this becomes complex:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

there are entire books that discuss this topic alone.

reply to post by jiggerj

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?"
If this is such great advice why don't we all just quit our jobs. Let's teach our kids that when they grow up they have no need to save money for the future, no need to spend money on food and clothing. Yep, real super advice.

I am thinking there might perhaps be a little more to this than your simple offhanded interpretation...I am sure there other verses that would indicate we are not to just jump off a cliff...We can live our lives as full people doing good and important work, without worrying about the state of our clothes (i.e., needing top line designer clothes) and could actually go without a meal or two (i.e., learning the difference between the language, "I'M STARVING!" and "Maybe I can go without that Little Debbie Snack Cake...")

Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.

I believe these people saw something, just the way these people saw something... What it was, who knows...

Religion has been an ongoing conspiracy against the masses for thousands of years. Isn't it time to really look at what you're buying into?

What do you want people to buy into? Nothing? People are complex creatures. They have emotions, feelings, and are curious.

People need direction.

To look to a manuscript that was written in the Middle East, a place where we gained chess, the foundations of modern astronomy and the foundations of modern sailing, and maintain your attitude of disdain is rather ego maniacal...You seem to be a rather intelligent person. Surely you know the cultures of this area of the world did much to influence world history in a positive manner.

I know the OP refers to the New Testament, but I believe to further the discussion, we need to examine the NT and the OT, as well...
Now from the NT, it starts as so...

In the beginning...

God has no beginning. So what beginning is He referring to? We assume the beginning of our known existence. The big bang. But we can't be sure.

...was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God...

Theologians say that this reference is to the Christ. OK. I'll go with that. God spoke Christ, or more literally, Christ is the Voice of God.
The Word, spoken or Physical, is a very powerful thing in the Bible. And coupled with Faith, has immense power over matter as well as evil. But, what is matter according to the Bible?
Well, let's go back to the OT...
Genesis 1 says that God created matter. But it had no shape and was empty. And evil existed in it. But the Spirit of God, moved over the face of evil. And in verse 3, "And God said, Let there be Light. And there was Light." And God saw the Light, that it was good.
This is where I start to lose the meaning.
In John 1:4,5 the Bible says, referring to Christ, "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

So is "light" equal to life? Or is it simply photon energy? Or is it both? As light is required for life?

Let's discuss this one, and then I'll bring some more scripture that I have wrestled with...

reply to post by trekwebmaster


I think you might be on to something here...

reply to post by eleven44

The bible specifically says the Lord helps those who help themselves.

While I pretty much agree with the message of the post, you will not find these words in the Bible.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Somebody has to take the first step. Now, the question is this...are the people who practice the teachings of the New Testament taking any step resembling the pattern on the dance floor?

reply to post by defcon5


No, No Book was officially put together, and called Bible.

It is amazing how much effort the believers will put into defending the only hope they have, that this hilarious religion built off of this book that this life is all about FINDING and FOLLOWING the religion, that all is normal here on this planet, as explained away in this seriously bizarre concoction of books that are ENTIRELY unrelated at times, and written to confound the masses the rest of the time.

Great Job Synagogue !!

Originally posted by Unity_99
Alll metaphor.

I have no issue at all with religious text being just metaphore. I personally use many ideas as just that from the bible.
But
Its then not a book of truth, but its just a philosophical book in general...again, I am completely fine with this...
But the thing about philosophy based on metaphore is that its all then subjective. You can get an equal amount of profound metaphoric philosophy reading lord of the rings (arguably more).

My issue is that, the power of the church, that take these the fundamental evangelical view hold power and push to have others live under a non metaphore style religious society.

Christianity, as a metaphore, may be beautiful, but the realistic view is that it is a cult run by delusional fairy tale believing ignorants.

Assuming Christianity is real, the Bible can still be flawed because it was written by man, gods inspiration or not.

But there are true tales in it as well. Can be hard to interpret which is a metaphor or which is real.

Originally posted by trekwebmaster
reply to post by Unity_99

 

I'm sorry Unity, I cannot subscribe to that assertion.

When egg and sperm unite, the potential to be a new life begins.

I cannot compromise on this fact. To do so would be a slippery slope that I am not willing to travel down.

I am confident and knowing truth is where I would rather err on the side of caution than err on the side of being wrong.

I'm sorry but I cannot subscribe to that interpretation where life begins with consciousness, because without the "seed" to grow into a tree, there can be no fruit to come of it.

No compromises.

If a baby is born without a brain..void of a brain, ultimately if you cut the cord, it will auto-die, is that baby alive, or just a bio machine?

Brain activity doesn't start till between 3 and 5 months, before that, it is completely braindead. It has potential for life, yes, but so does every sperm and egg.

My watershed mark is when brain activity starts. life is experience..no experience, no capability of experiencing anything, then there is no person...I feel the same for someone clinincally braindead and kept alive by machines.

Science grounds me here.