100-year Starship program: The U.S government's method of slowly introducing UFO technology to the

Originally posted by KilrathiLG
more on topic i really don't get why every one is soo against us exploring outer space if we dont do this as a species we leave our selves vulnerable to natural disaster or the extinction of our entire race.not to mention alot of our problems with over crowding famine etc will eventual be solved by other colonies and asteroid mining like it or not if we are to prosper as a species we will need to get off this pretty blue marble eventually

Because contrary to popular opinion, space is a big, empty and boring place. Planets that could be habitable are just too far away. There's a reason why most experts think we will likely not ever explore outside of our solar system.

reply to post by KilrathiLG


The taxing of our environment to create this technology will eventually destroy us. I can't say the space program is worse than others but it is not necessary. There is nothing within reach of earth unless venus can be changed to a more livable planet. Mars can't support mankind, he will go nuts there stuck inside a suitcase. It is better to keep this planet healthy than to look for another. That is more sensible. If the brilliant scientists at NASA spent their time looking at ways to generate electricity and focused on repairing problems here for five years full time, they could probably come up with a lot. That I would approve of, that and trying to push an asteroid or comet away from earth. The grass is definitely greener here on earth. Lets keep it that way.

And what are the chances of that, exactly? Relativity and quantum mechanics are the two fundamental pillars of modern physics, and the principles within those fields have been repeatedly tested and continue to be tested today. It is very, very unlikely they can be wrong and hence, the only way wormholes or other space-time manipulating technologies will become possible is through exotic matter. Your analogy fails simply because ancient Egyptians don't know as much about the nature of the universe as we do today.

As i said its arrogant to tell we discovered every law of physics. Gödel's incompleteness theorems postulate that its impossible to get a 100% ToE.
From wikipedia:
"Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable:

“ Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind.

—Gödel and the end of physics, July 20, 2002"

Mass manipulators? Have you been reading too much science-fiction? Or probably the articles of science-fiction enthusiasts who point to the possibility of manipulating the higgs-field of matter, something that isn't even proven to be possible theoretically? And even if you could create massless spaceship, you still can't go faster than the speed of light without violating causality (you would arrive before you even left).

Actually causality is violated in some experiments:
arstechnica.com...
arxiv.org...
And also but this thing is debated whether it violate causality:
Aharonov–Bohm effect
There also proposals that time has another dimension. Also other dimensions can have different time flow rates.
Heck even in our universe time flowed slower at an early stage www.newscientist.com...
Some static fields like gravity are excluded from the influence of time. So in layman terms its "FTL", if Sun magically vanished, we wouldn't need to wait 8 min and 43 sec to get out of solar system and orbit galaxy.
And universe expand faster than light, the supposed explanation is that spacetime can do such things, but no one can explain how space time can propagate into "nothing". That's a mystery we could never answer.

And Vacuum doesn't have an invariant mass, but it has relativistic mass. Every time there are billions of virtual particles popping in and out in vacuum.

Originally posted by piotrburz
As i said its arrogant to tell we discovered every law of physics. Gödel's incompleteness theorems postulate that its impossible to get a 100% ToE.
From wikipedia:
"Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable:

“ Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind.

—Gödel and the end of physics, July 20, 2002"

Incorrect, it is not arrogance if a principle has been continuously tested and will be tested and has stood all of those tests for nearly a century now. If anything, it is the only rational conclusion that we have figured out most of physics in regards to relativity and the standard model. Even your analogy to Newtonian mechanics and the quantum revolution fails, because Newtonian mechanics still serves as the fundamental principle for the macroscopic world and only fails at the quantum level. Most engineers, for example, will never have to learn a single principle from quantum mechanics and get by fine with Newtonian mechanics.

As for ToE, that is much more likely to be a reality within a few decades or even centuries than interstellar travel. If it really could be proven mathematically that it is impossible, then why do we continue to fund particle theorists that work for a ToE? And Stephen Hawking is not infallible despite his great achievements. People seem to quote him as the supreme authority on everything. He's not a string theorist, he's a cosmologist. This isn't the first time for Hawking to talk about a topic that outside of the realm of his expertise.

Originally posted by piotrburzActually causality is violated in some experiments:
arstechnica.com...
arxiv.org...
And also but this thing is debated whether it violate causality:
Aharonov–Bohm effect

That's great and all, but can you cite them in peer-reviewed articles or at least any other laboratories that have been able to repeat the experiments and have arrived at the same conclusion?

Originally posted by piotrburzThere also proposals that time has another dimension. Also other dimensions can have different time flow rates.
Heck even in our universe time flowed slower at an early stage www.newscientist.com...
Some static fields like gravity are excluded from the influence of time. So in layman terms its "FTL", if Sun magically vanished, we wouldn't need to wait 8 min and 43 sec to get out of solar system and orbit galaxy.
And universe expand faster than light, the supposed explanation is that spacetime can do such things, but no one can explain how space time can propagate into "nothing". That's a mystery we could never answer.

Again, you don't seem to understand the strict line between "theoretical" and "practical". There are also theories that there are more than 3 dimensions of space, and that inter-dimensional travel or "stepping outside of space-time" can be used to cover vast distances in outer-space. But in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't mean anything in terms of applications to the real-world. I doubt we would have technology that could allow for inter-dimensional travel (assuming extra dimensions exist) any time in the distant future, if ever.

I dont have time to read at the moment,
but im really interested so im just tagging this for now

love and harmony
Whateva

I'm guessing our EXOTIC material is gonna come from UFOs? well, being it on then, I totally get what your saying an I do agree, but I think a nerve was hit when people figured that we as a species were capable of doing this without aid from other beings an truth is I have to agree with them too, so it goes both ways honestly.
so it really comes down to time. do we as a species wait an research till one day we make a breakthrough an risk extinction from natural elements or from ourselves? or do we take UFO tech that'll give us ideas an push us in directions that would have taking years to figure out an get on the ball, in this case get off the proverbial Ball....
I still think our approach should be our energy problem first, then mining the moon. reason being, those ideas once put to the test an confirmed will only advance on that, sooner or later a breakthrough will advance on those applications as we look togo further down the cosmic highway.

Dante Peak

"If you place a frog in boiling water, it will jump out. But if you raise the temperature slowly until its boiling, you will cook the frog alive"

This isn't really far outside the norm of what DARPA normally does. The funding assigned to the foundation is laughably, hilariously, small.

They don't care about outer space. What they do care about is the defence spin offs from whatever technology falls out of it.

If those involved on the interstellar travel problem come up with anything its a win. If not then the funding spent on a dead end is probably less than the pentagon spends on filters for coffee machines. Lost in the background noise.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Those Star Trek nerds are going to keep us broke for a hundred years? God help us. What did Shatner and Nimoy create?

A billion dollar franchise that allowed people to dream the impossible with a means to make it happen.

also...

pointy ears and the turbo shatner 4000 hairpiece.

Live fast and prosper....

reply to post by gort51


I found this Link to be something I'd never ever heard about. Quite a read.... now comes the investigation of sorts on this topic.

rune.galactic.to...

Incorrect, it is not arrogance if a principle has been continuously tested and will be tested and has stood all of those tests for nearly a century now. If anything, it is the only rational conclusion that we have figured out most of physics in regards to relativity and the standard model. Even your analogy to Newtonian mechanics and the quantum revolution fails, because Newtonian mechanics still serves as the fundamental principle for the macroscopic world and only fails at the quantum level. Most engineers, for example, will never have to learn a single principle from quantum mechanics and get by fine with Newtonian mechanics.

As for ToE, that is much more likely to be a reality within a few decades or even centuries than interstellar travel. If it really could be proven mathematically that it is impossible, then why do we continue to fund particle theorists that work for a ToE? And Stephen Hawking is not infallible despite his great achievements. People seem to quote him as the supreme authority on everything. He's not a string theorist, he's a cosmologist. This isn't the first time for Hawking to talk about a topic that outside of the realm of his expertise.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say that Newton wasn't right, i only said that there were a time, when for almost 50 years physicist thought they have discovered everything in physics. They didn't know that there's something that lies beyond, and world needed another genius to prove them wrong. Of course Newtonian mechanics is absolutely good to describe macroscopic world [above micrometer and below the speed of 0,1 c] but its impossible to describe particle physics with it. Physics work this way: there is theory that is well proven and right about something, but when new theory arrives which describe better some of the previous theory fields, the old theory is refined[mostly physicists place boundaries on theory broadness], and no longer apply to everything it is describing. Just like with Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics.

We fund particle physicists and we will fund them for next hundred years, there are still many concerns to standard model, like hierarchy problem:
More on this from Matt Strassler a Proffesor in Rutgers University, and Ph.D in Stanford[he works in LHC also]

"Many theoretical physicists have devoted significant fractions of their careers to trying to solve this problem. Some have argued that new particles and new forces are needed (and their theories go by names such as supersymmetry, technicolor , little Higgs, etc.) Some have argued that our understanding of gravity is mistaken and that there are new unknown dimensions (“extra dimensions”) of space that will become apparent to our experiments at the Large Hadron collider in the near future. Others have argued that there is nothing to explain, because of a selection effect: the universe is far larger and far more diverse than the part that we can see, and we live in an apparently unnatural part of the universe mainly because the rest of it is uninhabitable — much the way that although rocky planets are rare in the universe, we live on one because it’s the only place we could have evolved and survived. There may be other solutions to this problem that have not yet been invented."

There's also many paradoxes and problems. Until they aren't solved we can't say we achieved everything in the field of physics.

That's great and all, but can you cite them in peer-reviewed articles or at least any other laboratories that have been able to repeat the experiments and have arrived at the same conclusion?

It's on Nature site. I guess you know the value and credibility of Nature Journal.
www.nature.com...
You can access it by proxy system of your university, pay the subscription or get it for free here:
arxiv.org...

Again, you don't seem to understand the strict line between "theoretical" and "practical". There are also theories that there are more than 3 dimensions of space, and that inter-dimensional travel or "stepping outside of space-time" can be used to cover vast distances in outer-space. But in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't mean anything in terms of applications to the real-world. I doubt we would have technology that could allow for inter-dimensional travel (assuming extra dimensions exist) any time in the distant future, if ever.

As with most of the inventions its only a matter of time when theoretical will become practical. And i didn't say it will be in 100 years, DARPA in this matter is utterly optimistic, and i sense some kind of "money scam". Someone get a "fat grant" of million dollars for doing absolutely nothing, just wasting time. Bureaucracy and big government at its finest.

I'm much more curious why the hell you think we as a mankind will never achieve interstellar travel, yet you believe that some UFO could. Really that conspiracy stuff about reverse engineering of UFO crafts is so stupidly idiotic.

reply to post by Plotus


I had to laugh when I read that one of the types of beings were called Vegans. Yup, they are a little different breed..

Originally posted by piotrburzAs with most of the inventions its only a matter of time when theoretical will become practical.

This couldn't be any further from the truth and it shows your disconnect between the practical and the theoretical. Yeah, because we'll definitely master teleportation of macroscopic objects and build wormholes in the next few centuries simply because it is theoretically possible? There are some concepts that will always remain in the realm of theoretical physics and will just never become a reality.

Originally posted by piotrburzAnd i didn't say it will be in 100 years, DARPA in this matter is utterly optimistic, and i sense some kind of "money scam". Someone get a "fat grant" of million dollars for doing absolutely nothing, just wasting time. Bureaucracy and big government at its finest.

I agree.

Originally posted by piotrburzI'm much more curious why the hell you think we as a mankind will never achieve interstellar travel, yet you believe that some UFO could.

The simple fact of the matter is mankind will never live long enough to realize new discoveries, or we just are not intelligent enough to reach the stars. Given the fact there is a large chance civilizations in outer space can be billions of years old, and hence, millions of years more advanced than us, it isn't exactly a leap in logic to assume they have likely mastered the problems of interstellar travel. It also doesn't help your case that two of the most fundamental principles of physics (relativity and law of energy conservation) essentially prohibit feasible interstellar travel, and you can argue all you want that it is "arrogant" to assume these laws are correct, but the fact of the matter is that these are among the most tested and verified principles in physics. So, unless you can cite experiments that violate these principles, it is not arrogant to assume they correctly describe the physical world. Hence, until we rewrite scrap these laws of nature (and most realistic physicists do not think they ever will be), it isn't exactly a stretch to believe feasible interstellar travel will never be possible for mankind.

To add insult to injury, the fact that civilization on Earth could collapse any day makes it that much more improbable, be it WWIII, a worldwide epidemic, natural disasters on a global scale, etc