Libertarians And Taxes

There is alot to like about libertarians. Libertarians are independant people that look after themselves. I know that there are many different kinds of libertarians. There is a long way between Ron Paul and Noam Chomsky for example. But Im sure we all understand that the basic idea is about freedom, liberty and a small unobtrusive government, if any.

To be realistic, most modern libertarians would understand anarchy is fantasy and we do have governments that need revenue to function.

I am interested in where libertarians think this money should come from. Libertarians do not like a government to tax them. Libertarians do not like the state to own anything. So where does the libertarian expect the money to come from?

Even the most staunch libertarian must conceed the advantages of having things like hospitals and police and firefighters and stuff like that. Libertarians like privatization. In the United States they have managed to convince the population that they must pay heavy costs for healthcare. Healthcare has become big business and it cant just be handed out for free. From the 70s and 80s America managed to push this mentality on the rest of the west. Corporatist healthcare advertisments flood the western world while our governments continue to cut state health budgets forcing us all into corporate healthcare.

So the right to healthcare has been eaten away by this libertarian type mentality that plays into the hands of the corporatists. Corporatists would love libertarians. Corporatists would like libertarians almost as much as they like environmentalists because both libertarians and environmentalists are used by the corporatists as useful idiots. Anyway, libertarians are not fans of free healthcare. But the police and firefighters will always be free right? And by free I mean we pay for them with our taxes.So libertarians dont like taxes though.

The only alternative to taxes is having state owned business. It makes no sense to sell off public utilities but that is what western governments continue to do. If you look around the world you will see that the nations that have state control of resources and utilities are the nations with the healthiest budgets.

It doesnt seem to matter to the United States that they run their economy by racking up insane amounts of debt and having all they want in the world without having to pay for it. In Europe we see that youi cant sell off all the parts of Government that actually make money but keep the services that cost money like emergency services and education.

So if we do not want higher taxes the solution is to have parts of the government that make money.

A libertarian like John Stossel will try to tell you that the public should not own parks or roads. Stossel will tell you that things like education should be run like a business. He wants 'charter schools' for children that are not wealthy and he wants the wealthy to be able to profit from them. He wants the wealthy to profit from our roads and parks. He wants the public to own nothing.

So if libertarians want the public to own nothing then why have a government at all? But isnt that what a society is? Are we a society or just a bunch of competing individuals that do not care for one and other? But again, why have a government? I know libertarians dont think they need a government for the most part. Insurance companies are like libertarians own personal governments.

Could libertarians just have insurance companies instead of government? Libertarians can pay for inusrance but how many own shares? How many shares? How many are board members? Isnt the whole concept of insurance against the grain of libertarianism? Libertarianism just hits a dead end at every turn. Libertarianism is just a gateway drug to total corporatism. Libertarians will tell you the free market creates competition and brings down prices but that is nonsense. A runaway free market that is void of any regulation will always morph into trusts/monopolies. Always. A runaway free market always will become corporatism. Libertarianism will always become corporatism.

So you have life insurance, health insurance, house insurance, car insurance, contents insurance, pet insurance,.... ummm....why not just cut these corporatist coporations out and pay tax? You really think that we cant elect people that will give you a better deal than the corporations? The problem libertarians have with paying tax as opposed to paying insurance is that libertarians would prefer to see a person die than have to pay tax to help them. Yet most libertarians claim to be raging patriots. How can a raging patriot think so little of his fellow countrymen? How can a patriot think so little of the 'common good' of his nation and his people?

Libertarianism is a selfish and flawed form of individualism. Libertarianism should be called selfishism or difficultism.

So what do libertarians want? State owned business or taxes? Or just insurance and the needy be damned?

Burn.

How did the government run before income tax in 1913 in the U.S?

(Honest question)

reply to post by CALGARIAN


Im not sure but there are many forms of tax.

edit- I just found this. And from a libertarian no less.

A minimal federal government functioned on trade duties and tariffs before the civil war. During the Civil War the first income tax was started, some legal wrangling occured over the next 50 years but it was permanently codified in 1913. The fact of the matter is, we don't need a whole lot of governemnt services. We just need national defense, road and judicial system - THATS IT. No state-sponsored education, no health and human services, no veterans affairs people, no government funded research, no welfare, no social security, no EPA, no sec of interior (anyone sure what they actually do anyway?), no AMTRAK, no subsidies, no postal service. Theres a lot that can be provided by the free market.

answers.yahoo.com...



edit- we need to remember that the US Government did not provide the American people with much at all before the Great Depression so its not surprising that they did not require much revenue to function.

mainstream libertarianism is a Freemason/Jewish ploy to promote an international gold-backed digital currency...

Shills Alex Jones and Ron Paul are the party's biggest promoters...
www.redpillfactory.com...

reply to post by RedPillFactory


Dont hold back now.



I agree. Modern libertarians are just an army of useful idiots.

reply to post by freemarketsocialist

Dont hold back now.



I agree. Modern libertarians are just an army of useful idiots.

Are not most Democrats and Republicans and the labeling list of different types and groups not useful idiots as well???? It seems to me that anyone who supports the current form of corrupt government that we currently have could be called "useful idiots"!

As far as I am concerned, anyone who belongs to a group or label who wants to deny anyone that doesn't think like they do, their rights and freedoms, while getting angry at others for wanting to take away the things they believe in should fall into the category of "useful idiots"!

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by freemarketsocialist

 

Dont hold back now.



I agree. Modern libertarians are just an army of useful idiots.

Are not most Democrats and Republicans and the labeling list of different types and groups not useful idiots as well???? It seems to me that anyone who supports the current form of corrupt government that we currently have could be called "useful idiots"!

As far as I am concerned, anyone who belongs to a group or label who wants to deny anyone that doesn't think like they do, their rights and freedoms, while getting angry at others for wanting to take away the things they believe in should fall into the category of "useful idiots"!

In political jargon, useful idiot is a pejorative term used to describe people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they do not understand, who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.

en.wikipedia.org...

Why do you think I am angry? The link that the guy posted proved my point. Im saying the same thing. I know Im not the only smart guy in the world. I am glad that others can see how 'libertarians' are maipulated.

I am not a democrat or republican and I agree. democrats and republicans are useful idiots.

And I can see that you are trying to imply that I am a useful idiot. I strongly disagree. I do not allow myself to be used by any political entity or 'cause'.

You seem offended and defensive. Are you libertarian or something? Lib-curious?

reply to post by freemarketsocialist

Why do you think I am angry?

Where in my post did I say YOU were angry??? To answer your question as to my political affiliation, "I don't have one!". The "team", "mob" mentality serves me no purpose other than to let others tell me what to think.

Nothing wrong with being selfish. The people who are crying for handouts are being selfish. Just because there are a lot of them crying for the same thing it becomes "greater good"? The people holding the gun pointed to my head saying "pay up or else" are certainly being selfish. They want to be re-elected right?

There are no cops where I live. A resident state trooper nobody ever sees. There is no fire department covering my residence (as a side note permits are required to burn brush or even have a recreational fire so the nearest fire dept. wont come out to put out a house fire but theyll come all the way out here to make sure you have a permit for a camp fire and fine you like crazy if you dont but you're SOL if the house catches fire). All the hospitals around are privately owned and operated. The roads are dirt and maintained privately. I'm on well water. The electricity is maintained by a private company. I dont have any kids in school.

So why the hell am I paying one of the highest property tax rates in the country?

Dont even get me going on federal taxes. I oppose all wars yet I fund them. I oppose prohibition yet I fund it. I oppose fractional reserve banking yet I am forced to participate since the entity holding the federal gun to my head wont accept anything other than it's own notes to pay taxes it arbitrarily decided I owed it. For what?

Tell me what the hell I'm paying for. Something real. Not some abstract fantasy like the "greater good" or "society" because the only tether I have to "society" is the fact that I need an income to pay a tax levied on me by some thug who just has more guns than I do.

reply to post by seeker1963


I agree. I lean towrd socialism but I do not identify with any political party that claims to be socialist. I am against 'affirmative action' for example but most poltical parties that claim to be socialist support 'affirmative action'. To me this is absurd. The SEP is ok but they are unambitious and uninspired. I like Syriza. But none really are exactlty what I want from a political party. There is nothing in the whole world unfortunately.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Nothing wrong with being selfish. The people who are crying for handouts are being selfish. Just because there are a lot of them crying for the same thing it becomes "greater good"? The people holding the gun pointed to my head saying "pay up or else" are certainly being selfish. They want to be re-elected right?

There are no cops where I live. A resident state trooper nobody ever sees. There is no fire department covering my residence (as a side note permits are required to burn brush or even have a recreational fire so the nearest fire dept. wont come out to put out a house fire but theyll come all the way out here to make sure you have a permit for a camp fire and fine you like crazy if you dont but you're SOL if the house catches fire). All the hospitals around are privately owned and operated. The roads are dirt and maintained privately. I'm on well water. The electricity is maintained by a private company. I dont have any kids in school.

So why the hell am I paying one of the highest property tax rates in the country?

Dont even get me going on federal taxes. I oppose all wars yet I fund them. I oppose prohibition yet I fund it. I oppose fractional reserve banking yet I am forced to participate since the entity holding the federal gun to my head wont accept anything other than it's own notes to pay taxes it arbitrarily decided I owed it. For what?

Tell me what the hell I'm paying for. Something real. Not some abstract fantasy like the "greater good" or "society" because the only tether I have to "society" is the fact that I need an income to pay a tax levied on me by some thug who just has more guns than I do.

edit on 30-8-2012 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)

I can understand where you are coming from. I agree for the most part. I live in a similar area and we have a volunteer Fire Brigade. We only have one police for the area and she is generally in another area. The rates we pay get us not much more than our garbage collected.

I just think that it is in your best interest to have a safety valve on society. Government waste is incredible. Budgets of western nations are massive. There is no real need for a nation like the United States to have such high rates of crime and hundreds of thousands of homeless.

I am not saying that communism is a solution but if there is not a safety valve a nation could end up like Somalia. Somalia is a true libertarian nation. A libertarian utopia. It is not corporatist but pure libertarianism.

And there is no need for so many to be without work. There are things like 'public works' programs that could offer jobs and the state/we could own the infrustructure at the end of it instead of us all being beholden to billionaires.

- state/we. I think people have trouble with that. We are the state as long as we demand true democracy.

reply to post by CALGARIAN


They taxed income before 1913 among various other taxes. All the 16th amendment did was allow the government to tax all incomes uniformly. Prior to that there were certain types of incomes that had to be taxed at a different rate.

we need to remember that the US Government did not provide the American people with much at all before the Great Depression

Yes and life was harsh and brutal then and most people were poor, so that's why the New Deal was implemented and created prosperous, modern America.

LIbertarianism is stupid or selfish, or both. You can't have 300 million people in one country that don't produce anything without a lot of financing, programs, coordination and policing. Libertarians and Republicans need to wake up and realize that their trite fantasies could only work with a massive population reduction, then converting the entire society to agrarianism.

Originally posted by CB328

we need to remember that the US Government did not provide the American people with much at all before the Great Depression

Yes and life was harsh and brutal then and most people were poor, so that's why the New Deal was implemented and created prosperous, modern America.

LIbertarianism is stupid or selfish, or both. You can't have 300 million people in one country that don't produce anything without a lot of financing, programs, coordination and policing. Libertarians and Republicans need to wake up and realize that their trite fantasies could only work with a massive population reduction, then converting the entire society to agrarianism.

It is also why the outlaws and bank robbers were romanticized and popular. It is also how we got the fat coca-cola Santa, people liked him because he looked like the robber-barons. It lead to the welfare capitalists like Ford, and the entire labor movement.

reply to post by freemarketsocialist

I don't know about that.

Congress would go unpaid. No low income. No tax exemptions for schools and non-profits.
No retirement. No disability. No pensions. No worker's compensation. No unemployment.No student aid.
No federally insured bank loans.No credit systems(via the federal reserve inc. central bank).
No FBI because they would go unpaid.


I mean there are glaring problems.

Originally posted by CB328

we need to remember that the US Government did not provide the American people with much at all before the Great Depression

Yes and life was harsh and brutal then and most people were poor, so that's why the New Deal was implemented and created prosperous, modern America.

LIbertarianism is stupid or selfish, or both. You can't have 300 million people in one country that don't produce anything without a lot of financing, programs, coordination and policing. Libertarians and Republicans need to wake up and realize that their trite fantasies could only work with a massive population reduction, then converting the entire society to agrarianism.

Why are libertarians stupid and selfish?

Why do people have to believe what you believe or they are stupid and selfish?

Taxation should be only external not internal, for the fruit of our labors is ours to keep. Taxation should be external which means it should not infringe with our natural survival. A federal tax system is considered unconstitutional. States should pay not individuals with their income. It’s what funded the states to govern the people. The federal government should receive its funds from the states, which it acquired through external profit of the state.

The necessities that are really needed by Government should be paid by an external tax and not as much of internal taxes. External taxes are taxes more oriented toward tariffs and export/import taxes levied against goods being shipping in (and out) of the nation. Internal taxes were the general taxes imposed on items and lands within a nation or colony. These are taxes on goods that most people need or use, and tended to affect most free people in the nation. Since these taxes were so widespread, they were typically decided and collected by the provinces of the nation themselves rather than the entire national government that’s where the states get their money. The only internal tax should exist should be the sales tax (a percentage of the value sold) no income tax.

Many people are happy with the big government that handles the problems of modern society, but get unhappy when they see a $17 Trillion bill stuck to it. Libertarianism is the belief in self-organization. That local problems can best be handled by the locals. De Tocqueville marveled at this in the early 19th Century as an example of what makes America different.

The Archdruid Report wrote a recent blog post that outlines the difference nicely:

The same thing, often in much more drastic terms, happened to many other voluntary organizations that once occupied the roles currently more or less filled by government social welfare programs. In 1920, for example, something like 3500 different fraternal orders existed in the United States, and around 50% of the country’s adult population—counting both genders and all ethnic groups, by the way—belonged to at least one of them. Reasons for belonging ranged across the whole spectrum of human social phenomena, but there were hard pragmatic reasons to put in a petition for membership at your local lodge of the Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, or what have you: at a time when employers generally didn’t provide sick pay and other benefits for employees, most fraternal orders did.

Your assertion that libertarianism has eaten away at things like the Right to Healthcare is fictitious. Healthcare is a problem, not because of availability, but because of affordability. You need to look at the role of government in that. For instance, it was illegal to build a hospital or healthcare facility unless you had a government-issued Certificate of Need (abbreviated in the trades as "CON").

Also, medical services are not required to publish prices up front. Any other service such as an electrician, automechanic, or plumber would face the full force of law if they refused to provide you with a written estimate. They are legally required to do so. If you want to look at the absurdity of this, take a look at this coverage of a recent report published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in The Market Ticker:

The intent of the article was to discover if they could obtain "up front" and transparent, all-inclusive pricing for a rather common surgical procedure -- prosthetic hip replacement, which is known by its medical name total hip arthroplasty.

They contacted the 20 top-rated orthopedic hospitals in the US along with two random ones in each state, a sample of 120 hospitals. They then attempted to obtain pricing for this elective procedure, using a standardized script stating that the patient was a 62-year old grandmother. Each hospital got 5 bites at the apple to provide a complete price.

Only 45% of the top-ranked hospitals and 10% of those randomly selected were able to provide such a price after five attempts each.

Worse, the range of the procedure in cost was from $11,100 to $125,798, with top-ranked hospitals neither being the low or high bids, but having representation near the endpoints of both (12,500 and 105,000.)

*snip*

The higher end only exists because of cost-shifting.

Nobody would pay 10x as much for a procedure if they knew in advance what it would cost, and had the other alternatives available to them, unless they were convinced that the quality was dramatically superior. But since some of the top-rated hospitals were in fact at the bottom in cost, there is no argument that can be raised that price is related to quality.

Do you know who enables this behavior? The government itself. Libertarians argue for equitable transactions, not government backed cost-concealment.

In fact, Time Magazine made the medical billing problem their cover story.

What about emergency treatment costs? Again, The Market Ticker covers this.

EMTALA, a 1980s era law signed by Ronald Reagan, forced the provision of care to people who had no ability to pay for it at the closest facility where it could be reasonably provided. Prior to this law if you had a medical emergency and could not pay you would be taken to a charity hospital for care. This might not be close to you, however, and you might bypass several other facilities that only took patients who could pay in some form or fashion. A few dozen high-profile incidents were someone was having a heart attack, stroke, or had suffered a traumatic injury and died led to the passage of this law. There were over six hundred charity hospitals in the United States, many operated by the Catholic Church, prior to this law being passed. Today there are effectively none.

Who is eroding what again?

PART II, because I ran out room.

Libertarians argue for free markets. States prohibit health insurance from crossing state lines, unlike auto insurance. The Republican Party floated the idea of allowing insurance companies to cross state lines to compete for business as an alternative to Obamacare.

The Health Insurance monopoly is so entrenched that the "McCarran-Ferguson, 15 USC 1011-1015, specifically exempted insurance companies from anti-trust law so long as there is a state regulatory apparatus related to insurance is in place."

So, again, the government is creating the problem.

As far as roads go, the first National Highway (the Lincoln Highway) was started by private parties, the Lincoln Highway Association. The History Channel Club:

According to Lincoln Highway History author James Lin, it sounded like a plan—until Henry Ford said no. If private industry set the precedent of funding public roads, Ford reasoned, the government might never pony up. Undaunted, Fisher turned to two of Ford’s competitors: Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. president Frank Sieberling and Henry Joy, president of the Packard Motor Co. The two not only pledged funds but also came up with a government angle, since Congress was already reviewing a $1.7 million proposal for a marble memorial to Abraham Lincoln.

Local governments got involved when they realized there was revenue to be made by having people drive to their venues.