Who are these people on the new world?

Text The book of Revelation is not about literal predictions or prophecy of historical events.It is written in symbols (metaphors ) and signs(numbers).It is about one thing only. The salvation of God to ALL humanity.Not for just a few but everyone.

reply to post by Rex282


Part 1

@ Rex282

Thank you for your opinions of your belief. No one can prove they are spot on in their theological understanding of scripture and actually I can't say that I understand everything because there probably isn't any one person who can understand the entire Christian philosophy.

With that said, then lets simply not include Revelation in my thread and concentrate on the rest of the scriptures.

Starting with Isaiah, let's try to understand his prophecy unless you say that he also uses symbols (metaphors) and signs. Before I begin there is one thing that I believe everyone should respect and that is that the manuscripts used in most Christian bibles were not chapters and verses but were separated by thought, So to be honest let us read the bible in the same manner. Not pull verses or partial verses out of context. This may take several postings to establish my thoughts.

Isaiah the 64 the chapter finds the prophet lamenting the sins and disbelief that people have for his God. He is sorrowful in that sin has destroyed the purpose that God has intended for His people. Isaiah the 65 chapter finds Isaiah’s lamenting turn into chastisement and from chastisement into prophecy of the rewards of love for his God. This brings us to the explanation of these rewards starting in chapter 65:17-25

Isaiah 65:17-25 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 - But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 - And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 - There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 - And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 - They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 - They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 - And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 - The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Note that in the 17th verse Isaiah states that his God tells him that He will create new heavens and a new earth. The very first thing that must be understood is that of the belief of renewal or new creation. There are several camps in Christianity who disagree in this very first premise. Does God mean that He will renew the present day city of Jerusalem or will He create a New City of Jerusalem? Will God renew our universe or will He create new heavens as is stated?

2Peter 3:10-14 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 - Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 - Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Continue to Part 2

Part 2

@ Rex282

Isaiah 24:18-21 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 - The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 - The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

And so the scriptures tell us that indeed this universe will eventually be dissolved and that god will create a new heavens and a new earth. But still we do not understand exactly what it will be except that the new creation will not contain a star to lighten the new heavens such as we have now in our sun.

Isaiah Chapter 65:20 tells me that within this new city of God there will be no start of a day. I understand that to mean that there is no artificial sun in this city to have a start or end of a day as we know it today nor a man who is aged with a infirmity. And then the startling revelation that there are children who are still flesh and blood who are given 100 years of life to accept God or perish.

Who are these children on this new earth? Isaiah points out that it is not adults but instead just children. Why just children? Can you answer this without telling me that this is also nothing but metaphors? John verifies this same thing in Revelations but we agreed to not use Revelations.

The only children that I can think of that have not been given the chance of free will are those children who were deprived of life in accountability. In my understanding this would include the mentally challenged as well as the aborted and naturally the infants of the world. Just a guess and really do not know. These children must be flesh and blood who lives on the new earth but not in the city proper. Is it possible that these children were restored and given a chance for redemption?

Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Isaiah 66:23 describes more of the new earth and heavens. There will be a moon to mark time and also note that these children are flesh. They plant and harvest and build houses and live lives of free will. They also have the choice to choose good and evil and they will die at appointed times. They have a method of time for seasons of harvest and a Sabbath to come to worship God.

Isaiah 66:24 shows us that these people will look at the lake of fire which Revelations also describes. There is much to digest in Isaiah and it is a shame that in this dialog we can’t use Revelations to add what John also shows in the New Jerusalem. But you have insisted that Revelations is not to be understood by the common man and that it is nothing more that metaphors and numbers. You have made the decision to deny yourself the richness of all scriptures and I believe that you are mistaken in that decision.

But what do you believe in this Isaiah account? That is the purpose of this discussion and hope that you take no offense in my opinions. Who are these people on this new world?

reply to post by Seede

And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

There is nothing here to be taken literally.Fleeing" from a noise of fear and falling into a pit is clearly not being literal..It could be "speculated" it is a crevice from an earthquake but if was literal that is what it would say..that is the sign of a metaphor and something to NOT be taken literally.

The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

..Can the "earth" have transgressions.Unless you want to anthropomorphize it that it is a "thinking " and being capable of action that is deliberate this a metaphor.
....and so on....

You are correct in not bringing in Revelation as literal and the same should be done with Issiah and most prophecies( I have not studied them all so I cannot say 100%).A child will be one hundred.How could that be literal.These are good examples of why the vast majority of what the prophets say is a metaphor.When Issiah talks of Jerusalem he may be literally emphasizing Jerusalem but the prophecy doesn't mean Jerusalem the physical city.It is a metaphor as Paul said in his time Hagar was the present day Jerusalem.. is that literal.Then said the mother of us all(Sarah) is the city from above the new Jerusalem.Is Sarah literally the mother of us all..?Is she literally the city of New Jerusalem...he clearly said it was an allegory.

They way most people interpret the Prophets and especially Revelation has little to do with reality.Do you think God is literally going to create a new universe because of something mankind did when God is the creator.Did mankind get so out of control all God can do is destroy them.That doesn't sound like a God at all to me because... it isn't..When obvious metaphors are taken literally confusion follows.The fact is the majority of all the scriptures is metaphorical in the sense it can't be explained with words as a direct correlation.Words are babel..babylon.(and yes I understand the irony in that statement).

The fact is ..the scriptures purpose is as the testimony of Yahoshua...God is salvation.It is not a manual of life to be "deciphered" then followed.It should be very obvious what happens when that is done. billions of interpretations ...all of them wrong.The scriptures are not the LIVING word of God...Yahoshua is.The common method is a preacher,teacher,pastor,evangelist,apostle" foisting his "opinion" of an interpretation of scriptures then the hearer twists it some more until it is twisted so far out of shape it is unrecognizable as Truth.

The fact is very simple.No one can know any truth of the scripture(the Testimony of God is salvation..Yahoshua) unless GOD reveals it.It is exactly what happened to Peter.When Yahoshua asked him who do YOU say I am he did not confer with the scriptures nor did he quote them.The testimony OF the scriptures was standing before him.THAT revelation is the rock of the "called out ones" what is mistakenly called the "church".The called out ones are the few not the many as so many today believe falsely.

Yahoshua clearly stated."you search the scriptures thinking that IN them you have life yet FAIL to come to ME which they testify of that I may save you".It is absolute futility to try to interpret the scriptures to "know the truth"since that is not their purpose.They cannot reveal anything.God must first reveal himself THEN the scriptures can be understood.God isn't raising up "intelligent people.If that were so only genius would understand the scriptures and know God.

I don't judge anyone.I know why people believe those things ..they can't help it.God has caused a strong delusion that the carnal religious mind would believe a lie...religion..and all their speculative doctrines of men.It is the process everyone must go through one way or another.

The bottom line is God is not destroying the planet Earth to rid it of evil and starting over or any of the multitude of foolish doctrines of men.None of them are correct.The prophets and Revelation are metaphorical and none of Revelation are literal historical events.That is not what prophecy is.God is sovereign and 100% in control of EVERYTHING.None of his purposes and will has been thwarted one bit.To believe otherwise is to not believe in God.

reply to post by Rex282

Do you think God is literally going to create a new universe because of something mankind did . . .

When you read the historical account of the land of Canaan in the Old Testament, it is easy to come to the conclusion that it was the land itself that made anyone who lived on it to turn evil.
I think this is where some of the prophetic symbolism comes from, that you can't have a holy people on the land as it now exists.