Spy-in-the-sky drones to patrol Britain's shores for terrorists, smugglers and illegal immigrants

Originally posted by stumason

Anyhoo, I fear we may have strayed somewhat OT... Maritime patrol aircraft, helicopters and boats have, for a long time, been very useful in catching smugglers. If these are used in the same manner as manned aircraft are in that role, I see no issue. There is a "need" for it and it works.

The big difference is that patrol craft and the like can generally do something about this when they come across it. Drones, being nothing more than an 'eye in the sky' can't and still rely on 'men on the ground/sea' to follow it up and do something about it (unless this is heading towards armeddrones). Whilst helicopters and employing police &c isn't cheap, drones and remote pilots won't be and they're still going to need people to get out there and catch criminals monitored by drones. If this is a PFI or PPP deal, then the taxpayer will pay through the nose for this and the project will be more expensive (and less efficient) than what it is expected to replace. Also, if it is a PFI/PPP thing (on top of it being EU) any culpability and accountability will be intangible and impossible to track down. Nothing will ever be anyone's fault even if 'lessons will be learned' as is usually rolled-out when the SHTF.

Is this going to be a Big Society thing like Cameron expected with the coast guards? Cut funding and just expect RNLI volunteers to do more work? Sack more coast guards, police and immigration, then use taxpayer money for drones and then try and jolly everyone up who lives near the coast to hang around with sticks and farming utensils as the smugglers get closer to the coast? LOL!

I understand what you're saying about feature creep though, but the Police already float about in there choppers looking for anyone with a slightly warmer than usual roof..

Yes, they do. Hence the inevitability of function creep. Coasts today, urban and city areas tomorrow. I presume you're familiar with the concept of 'panopticon', well these will be flying panopiticons watching you 'just in case', and no longer restricted or tethered to particular areas. To paraphrase a meme of a few years ago: you don't have to go to prison now, the prison comes to you!

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I'd agree that CCTV has little impact on crime prevention, but it has a huge impact on evidence after the fact, so it is an awesome tool in crime detection and prosecution.

Jamie Bulger is a good case to look at. Without CCTV, those sick little buggers may never have been caught. There are plenty of others I could rattle off, many street murders are solved by a combination of eye witnesses and CCTV evidence. There was only a case in court last week where the defendant was up on a stabbing charge and despite him pleading not guilty, the CCTV proved beyond a doubt it was him. Same with the riots etc...

It has a use, but I do agree with your premise of "feature creep".

Heh... Stabbings... Evidence after the fact... Lol...

I'm sure the poor guy stabbed to death could give a flying f$#%k about evidence. You have fallin' for the BS hook line and sinker.

It's not about security, It's not about prevention, It's not about saving victims from crimes they could have saved themselves from if they we're given their right to bear arms or collecting evidence for prosecution. No, It's about keeping you slaves in line and protecting the state.

So keep arguing back and forth about the positive role cameras on every corner play, and why you need them following you. God, that kind of logic makes me sick. I'm sorry..

As has already been stated by Stu and Mar, The surveilance of Uk lands is nothing new in this part of the world,
The BN ISLANDER (Spy twin prop) was used for counter terrorist measures in N,Ireland for a good decade using thermal and IR lenses borrowed from the Midge drone system,

By the way I was doing alot of research conserning WACO (Branch Dividion) and the RAF "loaned" an Islander to the ATF for that period of time,

The reason for this article i believe is to "test the water" concerning unmanned flight in UK airspace, Which is preaty restrictive in the UK,
Then flog the UAVs to the local Police forces for "crowd control" and the like.

This is not cool, how long until one of them crash into something substantial, pedestrian or otherwise. Not to mention the intrusion into British peoples privacy. You would think artical 8 would prevent this type of thing from happening, but i guess not!

Originally posted by foodstamp
Heh... Stabbings... Evidence after the fact... Lol...

Evidence is evidence, no matter which way you cut it. People get stabbed where there are no camera's at all (and despite what ATS would have you believe, most of that report which said you get caught 300 times a day is rubbish) and it takes the Police an awfully long time, if at all, to catch those responsible.

Originally posted by foodstamp
I'm sure the poor guy stabbed to death could give a flying f$#%k about evidence. You have fallin' for the BS hook line and sinker.

Nice to see you are a stable individual, able to articulate your thoughts in a concise and reasonable manner....

Originally posted by foodstamp
It's not about security, It's not about prevention, It's not about saving victims from crimes they could have saved themselves from if they we're given their right to bear arms or collecting evidence for prosecution. No, It's about keeping you slaves in line and protecting the state.

Explain, exactly, how a few CCTV's camera's (and London, for example, has less than NY, Chicago or LA) is keeping us "slaves" in line? It doesn't surprise you slipped the "bearing of arms" in there. We've never been gun fanatics in the UK, even when you could get them freely. You would be hard pressed to find many in the UK who would advocate arming the populace. I wish you Yanks could get this through your thick skulls, not everything is solved by having a gun and the UK is a very different place compared to the US.

Originally posted by foodstamp
So keep arguing back and forth about the positive role cameras on every corner play, and why you need them following you. God, that kind of logic makes me sick. I'm sorry..

Good. Maybe you can throw up some of that anger and bile, then come back to offer some constructive thoughts instead of "we need guns, ya'll"...

reply to post by andy06shake


I will point out that you have no reasonable expectation of privacy when you're out in public.

It's not like they're using these to hover outside your bathroom while you're in the shower.

That all said and done, if these things are to be used solely in the the maritime role, I don't see a problem. But Merriman does point out, correctly, there is also feature creep. Whilst not totally against the idea, as we've already got helo's and the like and still no "Police State", it is what this might lead to further down the road which is of some concern, though given our Politicians bungling no doubt this whole thing will be shelved, or scaled back or not even work as intended anyway...

reply to post by stumason


Time will tell Stu.... Only time will tell...

You did bring up an interesting point though about the general populace not wanting to arm themselves. As silly as that sounds I believe you to be correct. It reminds me of something I was told as a kid in the 80's. The police back then, in England I believe it was, did not carry firearms on their person. Is that true?

Ohh I just wanted to make one more quick comment, You mentioned to another guy in your last posting that It's not like there using the drones to stare into your bathroom window. Well, your wrong... At least as far as the US is concerned. And no I'm not addressing some isolated incident. It has already become common practice for police agencies to "Snoop" into windows and "Find Incriminating evidence" and the like. Give it a Google, You'll find it. Not to mention the military already has the capacity to equipped these drones with high powered cameras that see right through your house! Showing people eating, sleeping, doin' the nasty, etc etc... Google that too...

This is the implementation of a TOTAL survalience system bud! Dare I say, the one who has his head buried in the ground be the unstable one? Or the guy that said the "F" word? Hmmmmm

reply to post by stumason


"It's not like they're using these to hover outside your bathroom while you're in the shower. "

Not yet, but give it time. LoL. Its the application of the technology im worried about, reeks of totalitarian technocracy, just my opinion.

reply to post by foodstamp


Our Police have never been routinely armed. Up until the 50's, I believe, they had access to pistols but rarely even cracked them out of the case and left them in the station. There is one famous incident from the turn of the century (19th/20th) where there was an armed robbery and the Police did not have their guns. Ironically, they borrowed one off a nearby chap who was visiting from the country so had his weapon on him!

Nowadays, the only armed police are specialists, numbering around 5% of the total force in the UK, most belonging to the Met. The rest are armed with asps, tazers and CS spray.

I don't doubt the tech exists to do such a thing, regarding your point about being able to see into houses. I have never once heard of a single court case being brought where they have used such evidence though, unless you count IR camera's seeing the heat from cannabis factories for example.

As for "total surveillance", well, we've been warmed of Big Brother and the Police state we are apparently heading towards for years on ATS, yet I see no sign of it! In fact, quite a few of the more draconian laws put in by the last Government have actually been repealed. Thus, of course, doesn't get air time on ATS....

Originally posted by stumason
Whilst not totally against the idea, as we've already got helo's and the like and still no "Police State", it is what this might lead to further down the road which is of some concern, though given our Politicians bungling no doubt this whole thing will be shelved, or scaled back or not even work as intended anyway...

I don't think any of the 'Police State' worry-mongers have ever claimed that it would happen over-night with coppers kicking in doors at dawn and people in camps by tea-time. We'll walk, blindly, into one. Footstep by footstep, without any real concern where we're walking to. I'm not entirely convinced a Police State will be engineered wholesale either with some master-plan and schematics on a polished wood table. I think half the people that will eventually create it will be so concerned with appeasing Daily Mail readers, the people frightened of paedophiles hiding in milk crates near schools and Muslim terrorists blowing-up their hospital baby units with dirty bombs deployed from space that even they won't be fully appreciative of what killing these (false) bogeymen will cost us in terms of liberties.

I genuinely think that was the case with New Labour and ID cards. I was dead against them, hated New Labour for it but I'm sure they were a 'gift' to various security/technology companies that were schmoozing the party at the time and also a sop to those concerned with their balls-up of an immigration policy. ID cards and databases were sold to the public as a panacea to stop terrorism, paedos, ID theft, illegal immigrants and the like with a technology that was dubious at best. IT firms must have been laughing up their sleeves, as they did before New Labour and as they have since. Cameron's Coalition are no better - maybe even worse considering they platformed on the mess New Labour made of civil liberties. Any move down this road at all shows them for being hypocrites.

The worst of it is, with a 'we'll see...' attitude, by the time we can see, it will be too late!

It's not like they're using these to hover outside your bathroom while you're in the shower.

Although, a couple of weeks ago, I had a helicopter hovering over my mother's house in the middle of the night, complete with lights shining down through the neighbouring gardens (and through the bloody curtains).

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by foodstamp

 

As for "total surveillance", well, we've been warmed of Big Brother and the Police state we are apparently heading towards for years on ATS, yet I see no sign of it! In fact, quite a few of the more draconian laws put in by the last Government have actually been repealed. Thus, of course, doesn't get air time on ATS....

I can't really speak too much about the specific laws in your country and I assume you cannot do the same in mine. So I don't really know.

I do know this to be true.

* Our police officers have gone from "Officer training" To full on military "Training"
* I know that the government over the last ten years HAS in fact put together a nationwide plan to quarantine citizens all across the nation and build the camps alongside major as well as defunct railways.
* I know that since the late 90's that we have gone from the occasional bank security camera to a full on total survalence grid on every street corner and highway spanning across our whole city that feeds into a regional DHS Data fusion center. This is all public knowledge for those to look up for themselves.
* I know to be true that programs like Trapwire (Google) maintain and process all video footage and cross reference it with other information databases as well as catalogues behaviors and Identities for all citizens that dare show there face in public.
*I know that the current president as well as the former has past executive order that strip people of ALL inalienable rights should the president deem necessary.
*I know that the president has IN FACT used these same presidential powers to kidnap and "disappear" at least 20 US citizens. and has also exercised killing US citizens abroad and has legal mandate to do this same within US territory.

This is only tip of the iceberg. But if any of this sounds familiar. How in the WORLD can you say that you see no sign? You do realize i was only kidding when I said your head was buried right?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by binkman

 

How is it any different to the plethora of RAF maritime patrol aircraft, police helicopters, coastguard aircraft, vessels and radar, the Navy and other devices we've had for years?

It isn't, just Daily Mail hype coupled with a good dose of ATS paranoia.

If anything, it's cheaper..

Yep - fulfilling the duties that are already done, but spending fewer taxpower Euros (or pounds or whatever) to do it, and probably doing it better.

Trouble is there's no story in that aspect of it!!

Originally posted by binkman

Spy-in-the-sky drones to patrol Britain's shores for terrorists, smugglers and illegal immigrants

www.dailymail.c o.uk

Unmanned spy drones could patrol Britain’s shores looking for illegal immigrants and smugglers after a series of high-level meetings in Brussels, The Mail on Sunday has learned.

The European Commission aims to spend £260 million on its ‘Eurosur’ project, which includes a plan for surveillance drones to patrol the Mediterranean coast.

At the same time, several schemes are under way in Britain, aiming to develop civilian roles for aircraft based on the killer drones hunting Al Qaeda terrorists

(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.rt.com
www.globalpost.com

seems retarded as reported in the news immigration staff just letting people thru as short staffed due to many staff being fired.....lol..

and they need to meet targets.

drones shrones seems stupid.

not eough staff

Assuming in the real world, i.e. not banksters and politicians, the less you are paid, the lower the value/worth of your job. uk border officials are not paid a lot of money, therefore their jobs are not that important. Couple that with the redundancies of the same group and I think it's fair to say that the uk isn't that bothered about illegals/terrorists invading the uk.
But, now gvt is saying different because it will spend a fortune on drones that will prevent illegals/terrorists from invading our shores. How will they do that? are they able to land on the sea and robots pop out of them to arrest these miscreants and then send them back to, oh yes, back to where exactly?
How stupid do these people think we are? Drones are not for the purpose we are being brainwashed about, they are for use on the ordinary citizens when we get too uppity because we can't buy food or heat our homes. Give a gvt power and they will abuse it. They even refer to themselves as being 'in power', too arrogant to realise they are 'in office'
But never mind, if we've got nothing to hide, we've got nothing to fear.

reply to post by nobodysavedme


Wow...

Talk about uncalled for..

It dosent seam like you people know what this system really is. Have any of you ever seen a live maritime trafic map?

It looks like this: [url=http://www.digimap.gg...]

Now imagine this system but with people. This is what the new EUROSUR is all about.