Time travel (does it go here?)

Originally posted by Druscilla
I'm certain the poster was likely referring to the concept that Time, as we know it, may not be as linear as we perceive it, but, possibly geometrically complicated such that there are no paradoxes. With geometric Time, any time visited or altered has no effect on the point of origin. Points of origin are static. Interactions with all other points in geometric time will flower off alternative and separate geometries.

I think that's a certainly a possibility if we consider time as a quality of existence linked to our individual points of view. If I go back in time, it will be my perspective changing, not anyone else's, and I'm pretty sure that if I'm not around the universe won't exist. So what I do won't matter -- but only to me. Each person follows their own individual time track, but it wouldn't necessarily have to travel through the same timescape (the interaction of shared existence perspectives) all the time.

So that leads me to ponder why a reverse time traveler would continue to be so secretive and hidden about their travels and capabilities. Because that's what appears to have happened in our case. As a thought experiment, assuming that there have been incursions into our timescape by backwards time travelers, why have they not stepped forward to reveal themselves or share the technology? Could exposing themselves pose any kind of threat to them?

What would a change in the timescape look like to an outside observer? I have a half-baked notion that because the brain is a quantum machine, it may have the ability to subconsciously retain alternate, original versions of the past after it's been changed. This is most clearly seen in cases where people remember celebrities dying more than once. Well, obviously they aren't remembering things correctly. But the thing is, we don't really know how memory works on an atomic level, and how it relates to consciousness. So who is to say? Personally, I've come to think that there was a significant incursion in our shared timescape in the early 1950s, late 1951 or early 1952. Hints from reviewing history and recordings from that time period. I also think there may have been a big one in the mid-1970s that I was personally able to be a part of, though not necessarily remember until much later. Odd feelings of displacement and unclear memories.

Anyway, I wonder if revealing oneself as a time traveler, and making the technology available, might somehow create a direct threat to them in whatever "now" they are experiencing. After all, just because you can time travel doesn't make you immortal, and whenever and wherever you die that will end your personal time track and the universe it was a part of. Could that ripple through multiple timescapes? Could there be a problem with energy overloads in visited timescapes? Something else? I don't know.

The link between consciousness and time is a baffling one, and as far as I'm concerned certainly leaves the door open for shifting about through time and space in unusual ways. Even if there doesn't appear to be any of that happening. Appearances can be deceiving.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
reply to post by ronnieray123

 

What if there is more than one TIME....

We always think of Time as one thing.

What if it is more than one thing.

How would that change our outlook on things ?

if you further detail what exactly you mean by that maybe we can answer you.....

more then one time,,, what do you mean by this?

I'm certain the poster was likely referring to the concept that Time, as we know it, may not be as linear as we perceive it, but, possibly geometrically complicated such that there are no paradoxes.

With geometric Time, any time visited or altered has no effect on the point of origin.
Points of origin are static. Interactions with all other points in geometric time will flower off alternative and separate geometries.

In such a way, any origin point that contains the ability to time travel could safely remain static and indestructible, capable of flowering off infinite possible alternatives from itself where any time traveler would also have an infinite variety of alternative geometries to explore and/or create without ever a worry of altering the point of origin.

Any time traveler could kill as many grandfathers as they desired without ever an impact on their own existence or anyone else's from the point of origin.

That is, of course, if time is more geometric than linear. We perceive and experience linearity, but, our perceptions aren't necessarily the best in the animal kingdom, even with the assistance of our inventions. Often we have to revision and interpret those things and concepts which don't fit our perceptual context down to a denominator which we can understand.

edit on 9-8-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

what do you mean by time being geometric? what is the, "time" that we perceive linearly ( what is time)? and what would "time" be if it were geometric,,, and how would that fit into the way we observe reality operating?

reply to post by Blue Shift


Why don't time travelers come forward?
It's speculation, but, as part of the experiment in playing with the idea that time travel exists ...

It could be a matter of role playing.
Even if time is geometric where regardless of what a traveler does it has no effect on any other point of time, thus no real consequences other than the traveler's own safety, and the effect of personal observation regarding 'moral' conduct by a traveler, then it comes down to just the factor of personal safety, and what a traveler feels comfortable with doing.

Playing a computer game on God mode spoils the game. Interacting in a time environment whatever the setting and playing that interaction at an advantage may spoil the game as well.

Another aspect, regarding geometric time, is that regardless of when/where time travel ever getting invented/discovered/introduced to us from some aliens or something, when or however it's obtained, since points of origin are basically indestructible, we'll never ever see any temporal incursions along any point in the history leading up to time travel because all travel to any and all points in time, even to the past are unique separate geometry events, even if travelling to an exact replica of history from point of origin.

It goes back to the observed universe. Once something is observed, it cannot be unobserved.
Using Schrodinger's cat, there's a cat in a box, and until the box is opened, you don't know if the cat is alive or dead. At point of origin, you open the box and find the cat alive. You could then go back in time, creating a separate geometry in the process, and manipulate the outcome to show a dead cat, or no cat at all, or even a dog. Regardless, the point of origin event where the cat was shown alive will always be unique, irreparably observed, indestructible. At that geometric temporal point, that cat will always be alive, regardless of how many alternative points are created contrary to that one.
It's like taking a picture. Other pictures can be taken depicting the same event at the same time on alternate points with alternate outcomes, but, that one picture has already been taken and that one picture shows the cat alive.

From the observable universe standpoint, we've observed zero time travelers all throughout our history.
Even if we invent time travel tomorrow and start zipping around from one end of time to another, here, in our point of origin, there will always be an observable history of zero evidence of time travel up until point X where time travel was invented.

I may have over complicated the explanation, but, perhaps not. eh.

As long as we are pretending.....

If a time traveler did go back in time and changed something that affected the nature of events, how would anyone else ever know? If events changed, they would change for you, too. It's not as if you lived your life until today, August 9th, with one history, then were suddenly surprised you had a different history and wonder what happened to the old one. If that happened, you'd have the different history only. You'd never know it was changed because your own history, including all your memories of events, would change along with it. Only the time traveler himself, should he return to where he started, would know history had changed.

I think time travel is possible... sortof.

If you were to go back in time you'd still be traveling into YOUR future. There's a difference between relativistic time and informational time. That's because informational time is directly connected to our own personal awareness.

If relativistic time and informational time ran parallel to each other, going back in time to before your birth would remove all your memories. But if those timelines are perpendicular rather than parallel to each other, a divergent timeline branches off upon time traveling. Information growth is still driving forward and you get to keep your memories. Killing your gramps won't make you disappear. This lends support to multiverse theory.

Going back on the information timeline means losing information. Going back on the relativistic timeline does not. It's just a change of scenery or perception.

Closed timelike curves via fast spinning black holes already offer a theoretical solution to time travel into the past, even if we currently don't have the means to utilize it. I suspect that going back in time in this way would not have the effect of losing information. You'd arrive in an alternate past, if only because you are there and brought information with you.

reply to post by circlemaker


Ehhh,, I just dont think its possible,.,.,. because time is a physical phenomena,,, The entire universe marches forward in time, or "changes",, since the "beginning".... if you think its possible to travel back in time, say 3 days ago,, then you must think right now,, the physical representation of every atom and galaxy exists as it did 3 days ago, somewhere and somewhen in the universe physically...... we also have to better define time,,,. If we had a time machine,,, and we hoped in and turned it on planning on traveling back 3 days in the past,,,, would the entire universe rewind to 3 days ago? in order to travel into the past our time machine would also have to physically travel in space? how fast does the earth revolve around the sun? if we turned out time machine on for 3 seconds and flashed out of existence of the earth would we reappear in a box floating in space a few hundred miles away from earth? we spatially are so far away from the arrangement of the universe as it were 3 days ago,,, so many chemical reactions have occurred that cannot be undone,,,.

one way information time travel may be possible i dont know if this was discussed,,, but maybe if we try to send information the speed of light around the particle accelerator or something,, just kept looping it around for weeks at the speed of light,,, maybe that information will arrive in the future before earths more massive matter does?

only way i can think of to physically travel to the future,,, is cryogenic freezing.,,., completely subjective time travel,,.,,. you are knocked out before you die,.,. minutes later ( to you,,, maybe,,, hopefully) you wake up 300 years later,,, you have traveled into the future.,..

reply to post by Druscilla


Also if you dont mind id like to know who that picture in your avatar is of?

Even if you could manage to time travel, the Earth, the Sun, our Galaxy would have moved trillions of miles.

reply to post by ronnieray123


There is one solution which makes it possible, and does not change the present/past/future. Time travel brings you to an alternate reality which is identical to your own, but not the same one. Time travel to the past in your current reality/universe is proven false by the mere fact we are here.

Time travel may be possible. We just can't back in the distant past. Theoretically, we can only go as far back as the time machine was made. So that means that if the machine was made in 12/12...in the future they can only go anywhere in time back to the 12/12.

Personally I think one day we will the abilty to go back in time....but we wouldn't be able to change anything. We would merely observers maybe.

Originally posted by yourmaker
Even if you could manage to time travel, the Earth, the Sun, our Galaxy would have moved trillions of miles.

I've heard that argument before. We're already talking time travel, which is pretty radical all by itself. If time is a "dimension," as physicists claim, surely space is. If time can be manipulated, then perhaps space can also be manipulated. Many explanations of string theory's dimensions, for example, are explained in part by using a mobius strip to show how one dimension can be close to another. Explanations of Faster than Light Travel inevitably show a curving of space to allow two remote spaces to be close to another.

I don't pretend to have answers here, but it seems to me that if we allow a radical departure from accepted theory to discuss time travel, we should not then get stuck by insisting space conform to Classical Physics.

reply to post by schuyler


"I've heard that argument before. We're already talking time travel, which is pretty radical all by itself. If time is a "dimension," as physicists claim, surely space is."

I believe they claim its a dimension,, because its a necessary, or realistic measurement of matter and space... we use light years, a measurement of time to measure distance,,


"If time can be manipulated, then perhaps space can also be manipulated. Many explanations of string theory's dimensions, for example, are explained in part by using a mobius strip to show how one dimension can be close to another. Explanations of Faster than Light Travel inevitably show a curving of space to allow two remote spaces to be close to another."

I think faster then light travel showing two remote spaces close to each other, is a brain teaser play on words and concepts,,.,. in the way that,,,,, If im on earth traveling 1000 mph,,, and im going from point A to point B,,, the 2 remote spaces of point A and point B will be closer to each other ( in time) then if i was traveling 1 mph....

this is why we need to better define and grasp time,,, and realize that the concept of time is closely linked with motion, decay, physical process and change, movement,,,, and if the universe as a whole related entity was began, whether from a big bang or whatever,, that was the starting point of the forward "changing" of time for all energy and matter of the universe....

the only way i can imagine other dimensions existing and time travel to the past being possible,, is if the universe has some kind of memory bank,, or hard drive,,, where every planks length and quantum flux of information of the entire universe is plotted and stored and physically accessible,,, but thats a lot of information,,, if thats not the case.,.,,.,.. no matter what time machine we agree upon having built that "works" how will we access a physical universe that no longer exists ( the past)?

reply to post by Blue Shift


Time travel was the furthest thing from my mind until I experienced something 4 years ago. My dog walked into the living room where I was watching TV. I conked out, lost consciousness for a second or two. Opened my eyes and the dog was no where to be found. I looked around the coffee table, no dog. I looked up to notice my dog entering the living room exactly as it did before, same direction, an actual repeat. I know I was only unconscious for a split second because of what I was watching on TV.

It was as though a tape was reversed for a second or two and then played back. I started reading about Time travel but did not see anything that talked about repetition of reality. But it suggests to me that any time displacement like time travel is experienced in the mind. It is a fact that our eyes take in bands of light, not images. From this light our mind creates the images we call reality.

If anyone knows of a forum on mind travel via consciousness, I would be interested in joining it. Thank you.

Originally posted by lifestudent
reply to post by ronnieray123

 

I read your post, and interestingly, I asked Steven Hawking directly if he believed anti-gravity was possible. He said:
"I do not believe anti-gravity is possible because that would mean we would have time travel, and if that were possible, we should have met someone from the future."

Another interesting possibility is that if someone had time travel and others did not, it wouid be easy to manipulate time without anyone knowing or perceiving the changes, including covering times when people found out.

Just some thoughts.
S&F for using the same logic as Steven Hawking

This is an example of the silly, vacuous logic that underpins many of Hawking's pronouncements. Hardly praiseworthy! No wonder he is constantly losing bets on technical, theoretical issues. How on earth can he be sure that "we" (whoever that is - does he mean Congress, the White House or 10 Downing St, or an unknown farmer in the midwest of the USA?) - have never met someone from the future? You see, he possibly begs the question by denying the reality of UFOs and extraterrestrial or inter-dimensional visitation. His disbelief in alien visitors means that, if they really were travelling in time as well as space, he automatically cannot accept time travel. He naively assumes that any such time traveller would automatically come to the attention of the media or announce himself and be broadcast all over the world so that the event became public knowledge. How ridiculous can you get?! If a time traveller knew that he/she could affect unpredictable the future of this planet by announcing his/her presence, does Hawking really believe the traveller would have the stupidity to hold a public press conference and proclaim his identity? There are many well-recorded examples of people accidently visiting scenes of the past (the experience of returning to the times of the French Revolutions by Anne Moberly and Eleanor Jourdain, two Oxford dons, when they visited a small chateau in the gardens of the Palace of Verseilles in 1901 is a classic case). Perhaps he should start educating himself on something other than general relativity before he makes more silly statements on things he has never bothered to research.

The Rennes-le-Chateau mystery has been solved in recent years by Patrice Chaplin, daughter-in-law of Charlie Chaplin, in her two books "City of Secrets" and "The Portal", when she discovered that the secret of Rennes-le-Chateau was the preservation by a Spanish private society of a Kabbalistic magical ritual that enables one to travel into the past through certain portals that have now been located, one of which is on Mount Canigou. I have seen an ancient Sun stone used in this powerful ritual. (It used to be on display to an unknowing public in the Kabbalah museum in Girona, Catalonia). It is discussed here. Chaplin knew Salvador Dali, who was initiated into this ritual and painted his passage through the portal here. Chaplin describes her own journey into the past after being initiated by the secret rituals, clues to which became encrypted in Sauniere's church at Rennes-le-Chateau.

As long as people look at time travel as some kind of sci-fi film theme requiring billion-dollar technology that needs scientists to operate it, they will NEVER understand the TRUE nature of this phenomenon. The manufacture of Einsteain-Rosen bridges doesn't require antigravity forces. Only materialists like Hawking would assume that! Time travel is a form of soul travel that anyone will be able to do after they have died. But it can be achieved by certain Kabbalistic rituals if one does not want to wait until accidental time slips occur in the holographic space-time matrix. Search for yourselves and don't rely on totally ignorant scientists who now KNOTHING about what they speculate.

reply to post by schuyler


Time travel is indeed real. How do I know? Because I went 1 minute into the past. Because of the experience I draw conclusions. Conclusion #1 is that time travel is only possible in your own mind. There is no such thing as time travel outside of your consciousness. Conclusion #2 is that you can interact with the envirnment that presents itself at the point you go back. Conclusion #3 is that it was a fluke, it happened to me and I probably will never duplicate it. So with that out of the way, what happened to make me think I went back in time.

Watching TV in the living room about 4 years ago, I got distracted because my dog walked into the living room moving toward the coffee table. I conked out, went unconscious for a split second ( due to high blood sugar, it happened to me,often ). My eyes opened. I did not see my dog.I checked the coffee table to see if she walked around it. No dog. Impossible, I was only unconscious for a second .

I look up to see my dog duplicate, as before, her entry into the living room, walking slowly toward the coffee table. It was as though a tape was rewound in my head and being replayed. This was an exact duplicate of the reality I just experienced.

If anyone knows of a forum involving time and the mind, I would like join it, share the experience and learn what I can.

Originally posted by ronnieray123

and we all no that no matter what else.....there is always someone who is going to do something because"It is for the good of mankind"

Ning Li, i understand wanted to do just that.
Then she disappeared into obscurity.
No one can locate her

Time travel, say some one invents a way for you to travel any where in time you want. Would you and if so why? I would think their is a vast majority of individuals who would want to make some changes to their history if not some countries. But then what. If it's only travel in one direction then it would be a one way trip and you can not return to your existance and seee the effects of those changes. If you can travel in both directions then whats to stop a civiliztion from going to the future and aquiring advanced technology. Either way if time travel exists or is developed I would think it would be under the tightest control and never made available for the average individual.

1. There is no way to time travel because it is against the laws of the universe.
2. We as in humans have not developed it yet.
3. The world isn't here in the future, which means no human is able to develop time travel.

Take your choice.

reply to post by jvarga390


I think that time travel is possible, although far, far, away from our grasp.

I think that telepathy, pre-cognition, astral-projection and telekinesis are glimpses of the possible reality of time travel.

Good line of logic there, I agree that time-travel into the past does not exist but it's for different reasons.

Humans live for their secrets and hate to share power, this would be one logical example that could go against yours. I believe we cannot travel into the past because it would cost an amount of energy that we cannot possibly have access to, but even if we could somehow harness the energy of half the universe we would only end up finding out a new law, a new law that prohibits altering the past.

As for viewing the past like a holographic movie where interactivity is non existent, I believe this is possible if we were in a higher dimension. Look forward to this when you are a ghost.

reply to post by pyramidikal

As for viewing the past like a holographic movie where interactivity is non existent, I believe this is possible if we were in a higher dimension. Look forward to this when you are a ghost.

If those, in the past, who you are viewing, have any sense of "being watched" then interaction would be possible, imho.

Orson Scott Card explored this possiblity in his Pastwatchseries.

Fascinating stuff!