AIDS was obviously engineered (well, obvious is relative)

Irony Writ, while I admire your research and presentation, you use what I consider irrelevant data as �evidence�.

For instance, you mention that the Army wanted money do work on infective microorganisms -- as though that were "evidence" of its genesis. The military also wanted money for nuclear-powered aircraft and thermonuclear bombs for cutting canals and bays; neither, of course, has occurred. Do you consider an Army request as some sort of "evidence"?

You also mentioned that The Washington Post published an article: AIDS Is Declared Threat to US National Security. Are you saying that Clinton�s characterization of AIDS as a threat is some sort of "evidence" for your contention that we engineered it? If not, why do you bring such non sequiturs up?

Your entire article, it seems to me, is rife with such stuff. You talk about our country�s concern about population growth, but you don�t tie together that concern with engineering a virus to kill off the population.

You say: � Could it be that perhaps there are US interests that may come under extreme scrutiny of the criminal court with regards to such things as genocide and crimes against humanity?�

What�s your point? Are you, by saying �could it be��, trying to plant the seeds of doubt in the minds of the people that you have evidence of the US (or anyone else) of engineering AIDS? If that�s the case, why don�t you come out and make your case?

All I see in your post is a series of innuendos. If that�s any sort of �obvious� evidence in your book, it certainly is not in mine -- nor is it in the minds of 99 percent of the scientists in the world today.

I propose you come up with real evidence -- and not just some sort of agenda-driven accusations -- if you expect people to take you seriously.

Irony Writ says:

'It's very easy to debunk something, it's quite another thing to categorically disprove it... "

Irony Writ, are you seriously stating that your colleagues' inability to prove a negative is some sort of bolstering for your assertions?

If that were the case, I could demand that you accept the fact that I am really the Long-Lost King of France because you cannot prove that I am not!

If you make an assertion -- and you have made a very serious one -- then it is up to you to provide evidence of such. And, based on your previous posts on this thread, you have yet to be able to do so.

actually, I was told by several people that AIDS was activated when people had sexual intercourse with monkeys. as odd as that may sound.

Originally posted by Yasuhiko23
actually, I was told by several people that AIDS was activated when people had sexual intercourse with monkeys. as odd as that may sound.

guess im safe then!

more seriously, is there any scientific dats to back this up? were they credible people?

Thats almost certainly not true. The most likely way that HIV spread to humans was through the "bush meat" trade. Hunters in africa go out into the jungle, kill various animals, and sell them at market. HIV probably infected one of the hunters when he was butchering a chimpanzee.

The best theory I've read about the virus is that it was due to the original polio vaccine tests conducted in Africa. Using a live polio virus in the first vaccine, having that virus mix with the SID disease that is/was in chimps(also, possibly bats) is what brought what we know as HIV to fruition.

I think an accident is a much more likely scenario than an outright plan to create a slow-developing yet deadly disease. I will try to find the original article on the above theory.

Also, hello all, I'm new to the board.

Originally posted by apw100
Thats almost certainly not true. The most likely way that HIV spread to humans was through the "bush meat" trade. Hunters in africa go out into the jungle, kill various animals, and sell them at market. HIV probably infected one of the hunters when he was butchering a chimpanzee.

God help me, I thought only kids believed this theory.
Africans have lived among the monkeys for thousands of years, and suddently they contract it from monkeys? Suddently a virus jumps from animals to humans? Hah. Ask any african, if they had any sort of disease similar to aids before the vaccinations started.


Of course it was engineered. With such an increase in population growth there was no other way but to eliminate those who screw like rabbits. And from the profit point of view - Eli Lilly, daddy Bush as director after his term in CIA, were more than glad to be part of this. Perfect killer, and perfect method to extract money from people, as it is a slow killer.




GEORGE'S GENOCIDE

THE DARK HISTORY OF THE BUSH FAMILY, AIDS AND THE ELI LILLY CORPORATION

www.freedomfiles.org...

We might also point out an incredible coincidence. The World Health Organization went into Central Africa in 1972�into the area known as the
"Aids belt", and administered a smallpox vaccination to several thousands of Africans. This event was followed immediately by the first outbreak of
Aids on this planet�a remarkable coincidence�that was noted on the front page headline in the London Times, but has never even been mentioned in the
US Media�NEVER MENTIONED�.




[edit on 19-10-2004 by psilocin]

Originally posted by psilocin
God help me, I thought only kids believed this theory.
Africans have lived among the monkeys for thousands of years, and suddently they contract it from monkeys? Suddently a virus jumps from animals to humans? Hah. Ask any african, if they had any sort of disease similar to aids before the vaccinations started.


Of course it was engineered. With such an increase in population growth there was no other way but to eliminate those who screw like rabbits. And from the profit point of view - Eli Lilly, daddy Bush as director after his term in CIA, were more than glad to be part of this. Perfect killer, and perfect method to extract money from people, as it is a slow killer.

So, let me get this straight. You make fun of me for believing in the theory that the vast majority of scientists deem as being most credible, and then you spout off some baseless conspiracy theory?! Dont make me laugh...
1. Transmission through bushmeat is very possible. It is relatively hard to contract HIV, since the virus needs to directly enter the bloodstream and the viral load must be high to cause infection. Its quite possible that hunters had been killing and eating HIV infected chimps for years, yet noone contracted the disease until relatively recently(last 50-75 years).
2. Its likely that HIV developed into its modern form within a small group of chimps. As central Africa's population began to swell, and its land deforested, this group of chimps came into increasing contact with humans. This produced the opportunity for the virus to cross infect humans.
3. It is also possible that HIV had infected humans earlier than was recorded. Remember, until the last 100 years or so, sub-saharan africans didnt do much traveling. The HIV virus could have infected people in an isolated village. Since the mortality rate for africans was so high, and the incubation period for HIV is so long, it probably wouldnt have been noticed anyway.
4. The first HIV case that has been documented was long before George Bush joined the CIA, and long before the technology was available to manipulate viruses.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by apw100]

[edit on 19-10-2004 by apw100]

There is always the possibility that AIDS is simply a virus that underwent a natural mutation process.

What is scarier?

The possibility that AIDs is a result of a human error, or the posibility that there are naturally occuring predator virii out there that prey on humans, and that these virii are evolving new attack strategies as fast as we come up with the latest "miracle cure?"



(to simplify things a bit)

I was hoping the provoke the other side of this argument to present some scientific facts. No one is too compelled to challenge this conspiracy theory that much?! [ except for their beliefs and opinions]
Here i present both sides based on facts since the thread is lacking facts, and has some mistated, here is more info for those who might be further intrested in persuing this.

4. The first HIV case that has been documented was long before George Bush joined the CIA, and long before the technology was available to manipulate viruses.

Was there a capability to produce a mutant virus? Yes. Look at the the following time line. Argument made here - it was possible to modify an existing virus [SIV] found in monkeys, either by a mutation, or other more primative methods, long before the virus first emerged.
Note, monkeys are not carriers of HIV, rather SIV, which is suggested to have
mutated during the jump from monkeys to humans.

1927 Hermann J. Muller Used x-rays to cause artificial gene mutations in Drosophila.
1928 Fred Griffith Proposed that some unknown "principle" had transformed the harmless R strain of Diplococcus to the virulent S strain.


1859 Charles Darwin Published The Origin of Species.

1900 Carl Correns Hugo de Vries Erich von Tschermak Mendel's principles were independently discovered and verified, marking the beginning of modern genetics.

1927 Hermann J. Muller Used x-rays to cause artificial gene mutations in Drosophila.

1928 Fred Griffith Proposed that some unknown "principle" had transformed the harmless R strain of Diplococcus to the virulent S strain.


1941 George Beadle
Edward Tatum Irradiated the red bread mold, Neurospora, and proved that the gene produces its effect by regulating particular enzymes.

1951 Rosalind Franklin Obtained sharp X-ray diffraction photographs of DNA.

1953 Francis Crick
James Watson Solved the three-dimensional structure of the DNA molecule.

1958 Arthur Kornberg Purified DNA polymerase I from E. coli, the first enzyme that made DNA in a test tube.

That's about the time that the HIV emerged, first case was noted in 1959.
source


1973 Annie Chang
Stanley Cohen Showed that a recombinant DNA molecule can be maintained and replicated in E. coli.

1975 International meeting at Asilomar, California urged the adoption of guidelines regulating recombinant DNA experimentation.

1977 The first genetic engineering company (Genentech) is founded, using recombinant DNA methods to make medically important drugs


source


In the 1970s, scientists developed the fundamental techniques of genetic engineering. In the early 1970s, scientists discovered restriction enzymes. These enzymes recognize very specific sequences of bases and cut the DNA at these sites. Scientists are able to separate a gene of interest by the use of restriction enzymes. A few years later, scientists developed a means of transferring genes using vectors. Vectors are simply vehicles that transfer genes from one cell to another. These developments formed the basis of the technology of genetic engineering called recombinant DNA technology, the practice of cutting and pasting DNA in a cell. Recombinant DNA technology involves three basic steps: isolating a gene of interest, transferring the gene into a host, and screening host cells for the transplanted gene.

source\

1981
As stated above, 1981 saw the emergence of Kaposi's Sarcoma and Pneumocystis among gay men in New York and California. However, cases started to be seen in heterosexuals, drug addicts, and people who received blood transfusions, proving the the syndrome knew no boundaries.

1983
Researchers at the Pasteur Institute in France isolate a retrovirus that they believe is related to the out break of AIDS. Thirty-three countries around the world have confirmed cases of the disease that was once limited to New York and California. Controversy arises a year later when the US government announces their scientist, Dr. Robert Gallo isolates a retrovirus HTLV-III, that he too claims is responsible for AIDS. Two years later it's confirmed that HTLV-III and the Pasteur retrovirus are indeed the same virus, yet Gallo is still credited with its discovery. An international committee of scientists rename the virus HIV.

1984
A Canadian flight attendant, nicknamed "patient zero" dies of AIDS. Because of his sexual connection to several of the first victims of AIDS, it is believed that he is responsible for introducing the virus into the general population. By 1984 there are almost 8000 confirmed cases in the US, with 3700 confirmed deaths (CDC surveillance report, Dec. 1984).

source


The earliest known presence of HIV in the US was in 1969 in a teenager whose cause of death involved immune deficiency.

The earliest case in Europe was in a Danish surgeon who had worked in Zaire and died in 1976.

Many scientists now believe that AIDS appears to have started in Africa. The fact that several monkey and chimpanzee species found in Africa are infected with retroviruses that are closely related to HIV has led to the speculation that HIV arose from a simian (monkey or chimpanzee) derived retrovirus. Several hypotheses have been put forward as possible mechanisms by which the simian-derived strain of the retrovirus, SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus), may have been introduced into humans. SIV seems to cause no illness in chimpanzees, even though humans and chimpanzees are 98% genetically similar (Altman). Mutation of the simian-derived SIV strain may then have yielded a strain not only capable of replication in human cells but also far more pathogenic in humans.

There are several ways by which humans may have become infected by a simian retrovirus. One hypothesis believes its emergence came from human use of monkeys. HIV-2 is very closely related to a strain of SIV found in sooty mangabees and the location of sooty mangabees in West Africa coincides with the incidence of HIV-2. There is evidence that sooty mangabees are occasionally killed and eaten in this region. A hypothesis suggested by F. Noireau in 1987 suggested cross-species transfer of SIV to humans might have occurred when monkey blood was applied to human genitals after pubertal circumcision. Such practices could have eventually led to the emergence of a new strain of SIV capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS. Based on the DNA sequences of SIV and HIV-1 and HIV-2, it appears that SIV may have given rise to HIV-2. The origin of HIV-1 is unknown but it is presumed to have arisen from another monkey virus. It is thought that HIV may have begun to spread in Africa after the Second World War when medical personnel began to administer antibiotics by syringe.


Or, the entrance of HIV in humans may have occurred via a polio vaccine. Early polio vaccines may have been contaminated with SIV. Introduction of the polio vaccine into humans may then have provided a vehicle for massive cross-species transfer of SIV into humans. Dr. Jonas Salk developed the first widely used polio vaccine in 1954. His vaccine used ultraviolet light and formaldehyde fixation to inactivate (kill) the polio virus. A live, attenuated polio vaccine was developed by Dr. Albert Sabin, and human vaccination trials with that vaccine began in 1956. During the same period an oral, attenuated, vaccine was also developed by Dr. Hillary Koprowski. His vaccine was the first vaccine given to a large population; in 1957 the vaccine was administered via an oral spray to over a quarter of a million individuals in the Belgian Congo (known as Zaire and more recently as The Republic of The Congo). In 1958, vaccination continued with 75,000 children in Leopoldville (now Kinshasa, Zaire) receiving the vaccine (Hooper).

Each of the early polio vaccines were derived from the poliovirus grown in monkeys and monkey kidney cells, unfortunately, additional monkey viruses were also harvested. In the Salk vaccine the progress of inactivation of the polio virus by formaldehyde fixation generally inactivated many contaminating viruses. However, one contaminant virus that was not inactivated was the retrovirus simian virus 40 (SV40; named because it was the fortieth simian virus found contaminating the early polio vaccine).

If SIV was introduced into humans by means of the oral polio vaccine, there are still several questions about the polio vaccine being the source of HIV-1 infection. SIV is more closely related to HIV-2 than HIV-1, but it is HIV-infection that is widespread in Zaire, not HIV-2 infection. The earliest recorded case of AIDS was the Bantu man in 1959. If he became infected from someone in Africa in 1957 or 1958, then the man must have died very soon after infection. HIV is far more pathogenic than SIV. How did the virus become so pathogenic in humans? There are numerous examples of viruses of low pathogenicity having increased pathogenicity when introduced into another species. For example, canine papovavirus, a virus that causes damage to the heart and intestinal tissues in dogs, is thought to have arisen from an attenuated cat vaccine. Although the vaccine is a weakened virus for cats, its introduction into dogs appears to greatly increase in pathogenicity to them. Another example of increased viral pathogenicity across species lines was observed during the development of the polio vaccine. In 1932, a polio researcher was bitten by a monkey, contracted monkey B virus and died (Hooper). In monkeys this herpes family virus causes mild fever blisters, but in humans the virus results in paralysis and death.

source


# Visna, HIV, HTLV, SIV, BLV, and so forth are all retroviruses. They are all related.
# Visna, HIV, SIV, and others are in the lentivirus subfamily, so they are more closely related.
# HIV is closest to SIV (the "monkey virus").

source

* HIV-1 � the cause of AIDS in the Western Hemisphere and in Europe
* HIV-2 � the major cause of AIDS in Africa and Southeast Asia.

Genome sequencing of different isolates of HIV-1 and HIV-2 shows that each is related to retroviruses that occur in primates in Africa. These are designated simian immunodeficiency viruses (SIV) although they do not cause immune deficiency (or any disease) in their natural host. However, on those occasions when a SIV accidentally infects a primate of a different species, it does cause disease in the new host. The human epidemic is one example.
* HIV-1 is most closely related to a SIV found in chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes troglodytes)
* HIV-2 is most closely related to a SIV that occurs in the sooty mangabey (Cercocebus atys)

* HIV-1 appears to have jumped from chimpanzees to human on at least 3 separate occasions (there are three clades; M, N, and O). Except in parts of West Africa, most human cases are caused by members of Group M.
* HIV-2 appears to have jumped from sooty magabeys to humans on at least 4 different occasions (there are 4 clades).
* How? These (and other) primates are often slaughtered for food and exposure to their blood and tissues is probably the route of transmission. In fact the chimpanzee SIV that gave rise to HIV-1 appears to be itself the product of recombination between two monkey SIVs that infected chimpanzees. (Chimps often eat monkeys.)

Just as with other evolutionary trees, one can also estimate from genome sequences the time of divergence of two branches. This evidence indicates that the Group M clade of HIV-1 invaded humans sometime early in the 20th century perhaps around 1930.

But the worldwide epidemic of AIDS did not get its start until the 1980s.
What took so long? An answer to that requires an appreciation of the way in which contagious diseases spread. Their rate of spread depends on:

* The ease of transmission. The transmissibility of HIV is very low. HIV is not influenza or measles which spread like wildfire.
* The length of time the host remains contagious. Again, HIV is not like influenza or measles where the period of contagiousness is just a few days. For HIV, it can be years.



source

interesting article:

www.uow.edu.au...

[edit on 23-10-2004 by psilocin]

im not sure if guys read this..im pretty sure theres something writtin about it on this site somewhere..its an excerpt from Behold A Pale Horse..a govt conspiracy book.



Note: William Cooper was killed on November 5th 2001 by law enforcement.

A.I.D.S. is Man-made
by William Cooper
DATE/TIME: 07/27/90 21:02

To All,

During my talks in Las Vegas last weekend I revealed a few things about
aids that I have been keeping close to my chest. I have already
revealed that I saw that AIDS was man made to eleminate the undesirable
elements of society while I was attached to Naval Security and
Intelligence. I stated this fact in my paper "The Secret Government."
Now for the rest of the story.

The first study was made in 1957 by scientists meeting in Huntsville
Alabama. That study resulted in "Alternative 3." Another study was made
by the Club of Rome in 1968 to determine the limits to growth. The
result of the study was that civilization as we know it would collapse
shortly after the year 2000 unless the population was seriously
curtailed. Several Top Secret recommendations were made to the ruling
elite by Dr. Aurelio Peccei of the Club of Rome. The chief
recommendation was to develop a microbe which would attack the auto
immune system and thus render the development of a vaccine impossible.
The orders were given to develop the microbe and to also develop a
cure and a prophylactic. The microbe would be used against the general
population and would be introduced by vaccine administered by the
World Health Organization. The prophylactic was to be used by the
ruling elite. The cure will be administered to the survivors when they
decide that enough people have died. It will be announced as newly
developed. This plan was called Global 2000. The cure and the
prophylactic are suppressed. Funding was obtained from the U.S.
Congress under H.B. 15090 where $10 million was given to the Department
of Defense to produce "a synthetic biological agent, an agent that
does not naturally exist and for which no natural immunity could have
been acquired." "Within the next 5 to 10 years it would probably be
possible to make a new infective microorganism which could differ in
certain important aspects from any known disease causing organisms.


Most important of these is that it might be refractory to the
immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to
maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease." The project was
carried out at Fort Detrick Maryland. Since large populations were to
be decimated the ruling elite decided to target the "undesirable
elements of society" for extermination. Specifically targeted were the
black, hispanic, and homosexual populations. The name of the project
that developed AIDS is MKNAOMI. The African continent was infected via
smallpox vaccine in 1977. The U.S. population was infected in 1978 with
the hepatitis B vaccine through the Centers for Disease Control and the
New York Blood Center. You now have the entire story. The order was
given by the POLICY COMMITTEE of THE BILDERBERG GROUP based in
Switzerland. Other measures were also ordered. The one you will be able
to check the easiest is the Haig - Kissinger Depopulation Policy which
is administered by the State Department.

When you put this information out do not edit it and please give me and
this board full credit as the source of the information. Please post
the board phone number with this file. That is how I stay alive. This
board is THE CITIZENS AGENCY FOR JOINT INTELLIGENCE, SYSOP - WILLIAM
COOPER, (602) 567-6725

To aid you in your research of this CRIME the name of the report was
"THE LIMITS TO GROWTH" A REPORT FOR THE CLUB OF ROME'S PROJECT ON THE
PREDICAMENT OF MANKIND. In April 1968 the study began in the Accademia
dei Lincei in Rome Italy. They met at the instigation of Dr. Aurelio
Peccei. The Top Secret recommendations of the results of the study were
made by Dr. Aurelio Peccei who pledged not to use the prophylactic and
not to take the cure should the microbe be developed and should he
contract the disease. Dr. Peccei was hailed as a great hero for
deciding to take the same risk as the general population. The public
results of the study were published in 1972. The MIT project team that
participated in the study are listed below:

Dr. Dennis L. Meadows, director, United States

Dr. Alison A. Anderson, United States (pollution)

Dr. Jay M. Anderson, United States (pollution)

Ilyas Bayar, Turkey (agriculture)

William W. Behrens III, United States (resources)

Farhad Hakimzadeh, Iran (population)

Dr. Steffen Harbordt, Germany (socio-political trends)

Judith A Machen, United States (administration)

Dr. Donella H. Meadows, United States (population)

Peter Milling, Germany (capital)

Nirmala S. Murthy, India (population)

Roger F. Naill, United States (resources)

Jorgen Randers, Norway (population)

Stephen Shantzis, United States (agriculture)

John A. Seeger, United States (administration)

Marilyn Williams, United States (documentation)

Dr. Erich K. O. Zahn, Germany (agriculture)

When the study was completed in 1969 U.N. Secretary General U Thant
made this statement:

"I do not wish to seem overdramatic, but I can only conclude from the
information that is available to me as Secretary-General, that the
Members of the United Nations have perhaps ten years left in which to
subordinate their ancient quarrels and launch a global partnership to
curb the arms race, to defuse the population explosion, and to supply
the required momentum to development efforts. If such a global
partnership is not forged within the next decade, then I very much fear
that the problems I have mentioned will have reached such staggering
proportions that they will be beyond our capacity to control." U Thant,
1969

MKNAOMI was developed by the Special Operations Division (SOD)
scientists at Ft. Detrick, Maryland under the supervision of the CIA
and for the CIA. A reference to the project MKNAOMI can be found in
"The Intelligence Community" By Fain et al, Bowker, 1977.


I swear that all of the above information is true and correct to the
best of my memory and knowledge. I give this information to the people
of the world in hopes that someone will have the courage and resources
to help me end this madness. The illuminati (the order) are in complete
control of most of the world and they have declared war against the
general populations of all nations. We must stop them at all costs.
Please help me for I cannot do it alone. Please send this file without
editing to everyone that you know and ask them to do the same. God
bless you all.

William Cooper